EPTIt is just a highly well executed series that was elevated even more by its anime adaptation.
Anime Discussion Thread - Page 6472
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
It is just a highly well executed series that was elevated even more by its anime adaptation. | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1969 Posts
the first demon shows up On April 06 2024 15:19 Vindicare605 wrote: I think it's just checking all of the boxes for the people who hate isekai, but have been craving fantasy for a long while. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On April 07 2024 14:35 Just_a_Moth wrote: I thought Frieren was just good or okay, and stopped watching after 6 episodes figuring I would pick it up again later, and when I did whoo boy! It really picks around episode 7-8 when + Show Spoiler + the first demon shows up I mean I totally get it, I like Isekai anime so I've been eating good the last few years, up to my neck every season in all kinds of fantasy stories with different premises some bad and some good. If you're against Isekai as a genre (which I don't understand but I know a lot of people are) then Frieren must be like a glass of fresh spring water on a dry day. Whereas for me, it's just another good fantasy series, but one of the many I've been consuming lately. | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1969 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On April 07 2024 15:37 Just_a_Moth wrote: I'm not against Isekai. I just find for me personally it usually makes what would otherwise be an interesting premise kind of boring. I think because it feels that the protagonist has no attachment to the world or has no real investment in it. However, I have watched and enjoyed at least parts of some Isekai; Overlord was okay, and the one called Grimgar, or something like that, I liked quite a lot. That's the thing about Isekai though. It's so much easier to experiment with funky and new premises when the Iskeai format allows you to skip a lot of the required exposition and world building that's required to write a traditional fantasy story. If we're just dropping a modern day dude into a pre-fabricated fantasy world we get to skip a lot of the steps we'd need to otherwise do in order to set a story up which means we can jump into a primary action plot a lot quicker and easier. Stories like Overlord, say "now hold on, we WANT to do the heavy world building and exposition" so they run in a completely different direction than most isekai stories do who just want to get the intro done as fast as possible so they can move on to the main story. Makes sense coming from Light Novels why they would want to do that since the very appeal of a light novel is that you can pick it up and immediately get into it wheras any good fantasy novel takes time to build up properly. It's much harder to play around with the premise of the story when it requires that much work to properly set it up and execute it in a traditional fantasy story. Isekai is a quick and easy cheat. It's why there's so damn many of them around; they're easier to write. That sheer volume means you get a lot of less experienced writers trying their hands at it. So you get varying drop offs in quality, but you also get a lot of new and interesting ideas too that make them interesting to keep picking up. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1093 Posts
However, in an isekai, the character needs the same explanation that we do and so we naturally learn about the world along with the main character and we can essentially drop him in anywhere. It really makes the storytelling easier. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On April 07 2024 16:41 RenSC2 wrote: I see the advantage of an isekai being the ability to naturally explain things. The audience needs explanations on how the world works. In a standard fantasy, the main character really shouldn’t need those explanations too much… just a bit of new things as he begins his hero’s journey. So we are either left in the dark or we get unnatural exposition. However, in an isekai, the character needs the same explanation that we do and so we naturally learn about the world along with the main character and we can essentially drop him in anywhere. It really makes the storytelling easier. Yea when you can just straight up "tell" the main character how the world works, rather than needing to show everything in a way that's natural for a character native to the world to learn it, you can get the necessary exposition of the story done much faster and easier, which means you can dive straight into the main plot of whatever your story is. It also means, that any time you need to explain how anything works you can compare it to video game mechanics or other modern lingo so that you can expedite the audience understanding it that much faster. It's a cheat. I get why it might feel like cheaper storytelling to some, but it makes for very easy reading/watching. And especially since anime is all about the 12 episode season these days, these kinds of cheats make it much easier to fit stories into seasons in a way that's paced for an audience watching 25 minute episodes. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17777 Posts
To me this feels way more natural and engaging, like I'm watching an actual thing happening in another world and trying to make sense of it myself. One of the greatest examples for me is the old TV show called "Almost Human". They don't ever explain anything, stuff related to background info, the past etc. comes up naturally during conversations and they keep you really engaged and focused. Like for the whole season they keep mentioning "The Wall" when talking to each other and as a viewer you're instantly "What wall?! I need to know more about it because the small snippets of conversations about it sound damn interesting!" The biggest problem with isekai I think is that they seem to very often follow exactly the same formulas and thus give exactly the same explanations and stuff so it really feels like you're watching the same shit over and over again. I do appreciate when they do mix it up a bit and do something more clever than bog standard stuff within the genre. There are so many cool ways you could implement the world mechanics and protagonist abilities but it almost always devolves into "MMO interface and terminology", this I don't find cool or interesting. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On April 07 2024 17:09 Manit0u wrote: Personally I like the "show, don't tell" approach. It's much better if done correctly but anime (and other media) rarely utilize this concept. I do enjoy being thrown into a world without much or any explanation, with everyone treating the world and talking about stuff like they naturally would and it's up to the viewer to connect the dots and piece things out from the small glimpses of information given. To me this feels way more natural and engaging, like I'm watching an actual thing happening in another world and trying to make sense of it myself. One of the greatest examples for me is the old TV show called "Almost Human". They don't ever explain anything, stuff related to background info, the past etc. comes up naturally during conversations and they keep you really engaged and focused. Like for the whole season they keep mentioning "The Wall" when talking to each other and as a viewer you're instantly "What wall?! I need to know more about it because the small snippets of conversations about it sound damn interesting!" The biggest problem with isekai I think is that they seem to very often follow exactly the same formulas and thus give exactly the same explanations and stuff so it really feels like you're watching the same shit over and over again. I do appreciate when they do mix it up a bit and do something more clever than bog standard stuff within the genre. There are so many cool ways you could implement the world mechanics and protagonist abilities but it almost always devolves into "MMO interface and terminology", this I don't find cool or interesting. It's not like you CAN'T do a show like this in the Isekai genre, I mean this kind of slow gradual learning is exactly what makes Re: Zero what it is. Subaru doesn't know anything about how the world works, and almost NO ONE is willing to help him, so he just has to keep using trial and error to discover all of the details of everything. It's an awesome way to use the medium. Most Isekai stories just don't want to do this because they are just trying to get the audience hooked as quickly as possible and onto the rails of the story as quick as possible. When I sit down and pick out a random isekai I'm banking on the familiar concepts being there so I don't have to pay too close attention to the details to figure out what's going on. I'm just following along on whatever hook this show is using (usually a character or a premise) to see how they're going to run with it. It's a very different experience, it's like taking a shot of high proof spirit rather than sipping on a carefully crafted cocktail. It's not quite as tasty, but I get the same desired effect faster. But the result is that it's harder to impress me with just having a well crafted fantasy story now. I need something new or different to hook onto to really get me going. That's why I end up gravitating to dumb deconstructive shit like Eminence in Shadow. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17777 Posts
On April 07 2024 18:43 Vindicare605 wrote: It's not like you CAN'T do a show like this in the Isekai genre, I mean this kind of slow gradual learning is exactly what makes Re: Zero what it is. Subaru doesn't know anything about how the world works, and almost NO ONE is willing to help him, so he just has to keep using trial and error to discover all of the details of everything. It's an awesome way to use the medium. I hate Re: Zero with passion and seriously have no idea why so many people like it. It has probably the worst protagonist ever in history of anime. 90% of the shit he got himself into was because he didn't bother to stop for a moment and think or even do such trivial things like watch and learn or ask someone for some explanations when he found himself in another world. "Let's just barge in right into the middle of some ceremony (despite being told not to do so) without knowing what it is or what it might entail." "Let's spew first thing that comes to mind without any knowledge on how it might affect the politics or if it might endanger someone or get me challenged to a duel." Absolutely fucking worst protagonist ever and the worst part is that he doesn't ever grow as a character and just keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Self-centered egoistical bastard, total asshole and an idiot to boot. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18678 Posts
I love the side stories of Re:zero | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On April 07 2024 20:55 Manit0u wrote: I hate Re: Zero with passion and seriously have no idea why so many people like it. It has probably the worst protagonist ever in history of anime. 90% of the shit he got himself into was because he didn't bother to stop for a moment and think or even do such trivial things like watch and learn or ask someone for some explanations when he found himself in another world. "Let's just barge in right into the middle of some ceremony (despite being told not to do so) without knowing what it is or what it might entail." "Let's spew first thing that comes to mind without any knowledge on how it might affect the politics or if it might endanger someone or get me challenged to a duel." Absolutely fucking worst protagonist ever and the worst part is that he doesn't ever grow as a character and just keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Self-centered egoistical bastard, total asshole and an idiot to boot. You know what, I don't disagree with you at all lol. The fact Subaru is so annoying is what makes his suffering actually kind of fun to watch, until it gets to the point where it's so bad you start feeling bad for him. Only for him to repeat the cycle later with more of his bullshit. Re: Zero is definitely a unique experience, and I think that's the reason it's so memorable. It does something very different and unique with its storytelling. | ||
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Miragee
8677 Posts
On April 06 2024 12:52 Manit0u wrote: I think the beauty of it stems from the fact that it's pretty much just a modern fairy tale. Nothing groundbreaking but fairy tales are great in that they're timeless and excellent for talking about the human condition in general. The value of the show comes not from innovative ideas or novel concepts but from the fact how good it is at examining some of the important stuff like the perception of time, how bonds between people are created, maintained and why they should be cherished, the importance of memories, how you pass on the knowledge etc. etc. It's subtle but touches on some actually profound stuff if you think about it and the goal in my opinion is to encourage the viewer to think on those subjects. And the main theme is loss, dealing with it, and learning how to cherish even brief moments (which is why they chose an immortal elf as the vessel to portray this). I guess this is where we disagree. I think the way it touched on the profound topics was extremely superficial. The character progression was very formulaic and a lot of the conversations felt artificial to me. There were some good moments of course, or else I would have disliked the show. However, I can't stop thinking there was a lot of wasted potential and in the end it wasn't that well executed at all. On April 06 2024 15:19 Vindicare605 wrote: Frieren's popularity I think has a lot to do with being a reaction to the oversaturation of Isekai titles in the market right now. Frieren is just a standard, rather generic honestly, fantasy series that has decent quality everything, from its writing to its animation. It doesn't really stick out to me as notable for any reason, other than its insane popularity. It's a very thorough 7/10 for me. It's good but it doesn't have anything about it that makes me think it's super memorable or noteworthy. I think it's just checking all of the boxes for the people who hate isekai, but have been craving fantasy for a long while. Hm, this makes some sense but even if something's a breath of fresh air, it's not instantly a 10/10 best show ever, is it? That just means you got a decent show (i.e. Frieren) among a pile of garbage. I also don't like isekai but rather because they are lousely written. The concept itself has a lot of potential. The problem is that authors who want to write an isekai seem to want to write a cheap self-insert story instead of creating an interesting world. It also not like anime is the best medium for classic fantasy. Not that it couldn't be a good medium for it, but historically it just hasn't been imho. On April 07 2024 17:09 Manit0u wrote: Personally I like the "show, don't tell" approach. It's much better if done correctly but anime (and other media) rarely utilize this concept. I do enjoy being thrown into a world without much or any explanation, with everyone treating the world and talking about stuff like they naturally would and it's up to the viewer to connect the dots and piece things out from the small glimpses of information given. To me this feels way more natural and engaging, like I'm watching an actual thing happening in another world and trying to make sense of it myself. One of the greatest examples for me is the old TV show called "Almost Human". They don't ever explain anything, stuff related to background info, the past etc. comes up naturally during conversations and they keep you really engaged and focused. Like for the whole season they keep mentioning "The Wall" when talking to each other and as a viewer you're instantly "What wall?! I need to know more about it because the small snippets of conversations about it sound damn interesting!" The biggest problem with isekai I think is that they seem to very often follow exactly the same formulas and thus give exactly the same explanations and stuff so it really feels like you're watching the same shit over and over again. I do appreciate when they do mix it up a bit and do something more clever than bog standard stuff within the genre. There are so many cool ways you could implement the world mechanics and protagonist abilities but it almost always devolves into "MMO interface and terminology", this I don't find cool or interesting. I'm with Manitou here. "Show don't tel"l also doesn't mean the characters can't say anything. It just mean you have to show the character peform an action in the world, including normal conversations. You really don't have to explain everything outright. Like, why do you have to explain how the entire world works before you can jump into the action? You can write an interwoven story and "passively" explain the world to the reader/watcher as you go. For some things you have to use exposition but there are ways to make it feel very natural. A lot of anime, however, use way too much exposition and if they do they are very bad at masking it. That even goes for Frieren imho, were they get around the "explain everything to the MC" by explaining everything to unexperienced characters all the time in the middle of action. Authors seem to readily give up options for natural exposition in favour of creating "tension": e.g. instead of explaining the plan to an inexperienced character and the viewer before the action, they just hint at the explanation being done but don't show it to the viewer to keep them in the dark. Then they intersperse the action with exposition and flashbacks... It's really annoying. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On April 08 2024 07:18 Miragee wrote: Hm, this makes some sense but even if something's a breath of fresh air, it's not instantly a 10/10 best show ever, is it? No, obviously it doesn't which is why I don't put a lot of stock in what people say on MAL when they give out 10's like crazy to newly released shows just because they have some hype attached to them. Like I said originally on this topic, I do think Frieren is a good series. I do like it, but it's nowhere near being a 10/10 to me. The fact it is so highly rated right now I think is a temporary honeymoon period that most big popular anime get these days before their rating cools off and they come to rest at a more believable altitude. To my memory, both Attack on Titan's final season and Kaguya-Sama's third season both got hyped as the "highest rated shows of all time" for a period, and neither of those are anywhere near being a 10/10 either. Attack on Titan's final season isn't even close to being the best season of Attack on Titan lol. So I'm not really all that interested in what Frieren is being "rated" right now on the sites. It IS going to be an inflated score, because every big title that gets a hype bump has an inflated score for a while. When we go back to its rating in a year or two we'll see where it lands. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10665 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17777 Posts
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Topin
Peru10121 Posts
On April 18 2024 06:57 Manit0u wrote: All I ever wanted was next season of Hajime No Ippo  | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
If not, it will another Highschool of the Dead... | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On April 19 2024 07:09 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: I'm gonna be pissed if Zom 100 does not get a second season. If not, it will another Highschool of the Dead... I feel like it was running out of momentum towards the end there. It starts off INCREDIBLY strong, but it slows down a lot as we get the band together. I dunno if a second season can possibly live up to the first if that pattern is going to keep up, but I don't know what the source material says. | ||
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lestye
United States4209 Posts
On April 07 2024 20:55 Manit0u wrote: I hate Re: Zero with passion and seriously have no idea why so many people like it. It has probably the worst protagonist ever in history of anime. 90% of the shit he got himself into was because he didn't bother to stop for a moment and think or even do such trivial things like watch and learn or ask someone for some explanations when he found himself in another world. "Let's just barge in right into the middle of some ceremony (despite being told not to do so) without knowing what it is or what it might entail." "Let's spew first thing that comes to mind without any knowledge on how it might affect the politics or if it might endanger someone or get me challenged to a duel." Absolutely fucking worst protagonist ever and the worst part is that he doesn't ever grow as a character and just keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Self-centered egoistical bastard, total asshole and an idiot to boot. I mean, I will 100% take a dumb isekai protagonist like Suburu over a crazy OP one that dominates the genre. Seeing Suburu fuck up over and over is way more interesting than Slime or Overlord where the MC just wins every single time. | ||
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