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On December 09 2010 21:21 Blobskillz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 18:14 bearbuddy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 09 2010 17:10 triangle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 16:20 Sentenal wrote:On December 09 2010 14:51 HitoriTomoyo wrote:On December 09 2010 10:21 Sentenal wrote:
I'll try to elaborate with as little opinion as possible, which will be hard since the entire premise of the question is based on an opinion (whether or not anime sucks now or not).
Lucky Star started a trend of producing moe-blob slice of life shows. Have you noticed a noticable drop on the darker, action oriented shows recently? Have you noticed a rise in the amount of life of life shows, or moeblob shows recently? You might be able to credit Haruhi with this (because Lucky Star was partly inspired by Haruhi IMO), but I wouldn't because IMO Haruhi was a good show. Personally: Haruhi somewhat started it. Lucky Star solidified it/continued it. Other smaller shows followed the trend (Kannagi/Minami-ke) K-ON! popularized the concept and made it solidly popular amongst mainstream audiences. Or in Starcraft terms (sorry if this offends anyone) to simplify matters, the trend's rising in modern anime can be comparable to the development of the Bisu Build: Haruhi = DaezanG Lucky Star/smaller slice-of-life series = Nal_rA K-ON! = Bisu (This is open to debate however: some can see Lucky Star in place of K-ON!, in which case K-ON! is considered to simply be the next carrier of the moe-centered slice-of-life trend, in which it can be reworked as: Haruhi = DaezanG + Nal_rA Lucky Star = Bisu K-ON! = Kal/free/mOvie/Stork/any modern successful Protoss). Personally Lucky Star wasn't too bad of a show and isn't the primary antagonist in the recent rise of moe-centered slice-of-life series; while it may have had a hand in its beginning moments, I think K-ON! is the largest offender of popularizing the said trend. Whether if its good or bad is a subjective opinion and is a seperate matter. However, I DO have a comment concerning the quality of the executions of anime series in the 2010 season: while debatable, there are strong signs of a particular trend gradually showing itself which if not quickly taken care of brings the quality of future anime series into question. The trend for 2010 series appears to be: -Strong, solid beginning with decent introductions and a promise to deliver a great storyline with characters possessing a lot of potential to be developed in various ways -Partial deviation from initial expectations/intentions/general developments, resulting in the gradual development of doubt, though the quality has not yet dropped to the point of being dropped on a large scale -Series either starts to completely lose its way or already has: character and plot development have taken a backseat in favor of filler material resulting in a feeling of the series simply being dragged on for no good reason and genuine interest in the series is lost -Series suddenly remembers that it had a plot but because of the unnecessary filler material that took up precious development time, the conclusions on the plot and characters becomes rushed and inconclusive as a whole; many questions are left unanswered, resulting in an unsatisfactory response from a good portion of the audience Granted not ALL series that have aired in 2010 are offenders of this case but it has been making itself more and more apparent as of late. The strongest offender of this trend this year as Angel Beats!, and currently airing series that are guilty of this are OreImo and Fortune Arterial (I would accuse MM!, but I just stopped taking it seriously after the Dragon Ball parody episode). tl;dr: 2010 wasn't a very strong year for anime. I hope 2011 strongly makes up for it. Personally, I think Lucky Star was the worst show ever made, and it also represents everything I hate about modern anime, thus I give it more credit than K-On! in "destroying" anime. Even though K-On! certainly contributed in its own right, along with Haruhi. I see this sentiment a lot, and I don't really understand it. How many moeblob slice of life shows are there anyway? Not a lot. In fact, looking at next season I don't think there are any. Acting as if anime is being invaded by a horde of moeblob shows seems to be a misrepresentation. (And wtf is a moeblob show anyway? Is it just a show with no plot involving cute girls doing cute things? Aria seems like the definition of a moeblob show in that case, which most people would say it isn't). Or is it that moe is entering into "otherwise good" shows more and more, and making them worse? But there have been moe elements in lots of shows for a very long time now -- hard to see how it is substantially worse now. How is K-On "destroying" anime if it has made a crapton of money? You seem to say that studios will make less action anime and whatnot. That might be true if K-on was crowding out the market (I'm not gonna spend money on a Guts wallscroll, I'll spend on a Yui one instead), but presumably it has a somewhat different fanbase than the shows you like. In other words, K-on and similar shows should have no effect at all on shows with different fanbases. The only way they would is if studios start dropping those shows in favor of more moe ones, and while lots of shows right now have moe elements, is it really more than in the past? I don't think you can merely assert yes without evidence to back up that claim. Alternatively, what if the shows you like aren't profitable in the first place? Could a successful moe show you hate prop up a studio you like so they can continue making anime you like. (Can the strong sales of High School of the Dead help Madhouse?) Or maybe you're worried that studios just won't bother with the type of anime you like since moe is so much more popular. But if studios were confident they would make a profit on an anime, they'd almost certainly make it (since so many shows are net losses). Basically, if there are less and less of the type of shows you like, that's because those shows were never that successful in the first place. Moe has nothing to do with that. Regarding this: Show nested quote +-Strong, solid beginning with decent introductions and a promise to deliver a great storyline with characters possessing a lot of potential to be developed in various ways
-Partial deviation from initial expectations/intentions/general developments, resulting in the gradual development of doubt, though the quality has not yet dropped to the point of being dropped on a large scale
-Series either starts to completely lose its way or already has: character and plot development have taken a backseat in favor of filler material resulting in a feeling of the series simply being dragged on for no good reason and genuine interest in the series is lost
-Series suddenly remembers that it had a plot but because of the unnecessary filler material that took up precious development time, the conclusions on the plot and characters becomes rushed and inconclusive as a whole; many questions are left unanswered, resulting in an unsatisfactory response from a good portion of the audience But this also seems to be a problem that has existed for a while in tons of shows. Eden of the East is the most egregious example, with a plot that meandered and went nowhere, characters that never really developed, and a badly handled ending. I think that you just don't watch older shows that do this because those shows aren't that good. Finally, I've never seen Lucky Star, but I'm puzzled by all the comparisons to Haruhi. I know Lucky Star references Haruhi a lot, but do the shows have anything else in common? Edit: Show nested quote +10 years ago, I remember going to a Starcraft LAN party and someone brought Gundam Wing CDs/DVDs to watch. Not many people there knew what anime was, but it was pretty funny when Heavy-arms unloaded everything it had and everyone went woah that's awesome =P. I don't think it's longer possible to sit down with a group of people not exposed to anime and present most of the recent titles and not be embarrassed about yourself. Yeah, but again, how different is that from before? Look at the anime that aired 10 years ago: ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/PkHHT.jpg) 90% of that looks like shit. I guess you could sum up my whole post with the thought that 90% of anime, like most stuff, is crap. We only watch older anime that is good, but a lot of people watch both good and crappy airing anime. They then conclude that airing anime is worse. Wait 5 years, and you may well see people talking about how great 2010 was (referring to only 5 or 6 shows) and how crap 2015 is (referring to 30 shows). touch'e man, touch'e. But it is a rather diverse selection, and as it appeared as if in an experimental stage (between the mecha 90's and the VN later half of the 00's. However, I still stand by my statement that there's a distinctively less "otaku" flair to the shows-- and that the popular ones are generally more accepted by the mainstream and the western standards. If we talked about anime in 2001, we would be talking about Rurouni Kenshin Reminiscence, Hellsing, Prince of Tennis, etc. If we're talking about shows right now... well, we would be getting panty-shots and boob shots that are a surprising gimmick for more DVD/BD sales. as if boob shots are soemthing new from the recent years. Easy example, look at all the maho shoujo stuff like Sailor Moon, that stuff is old and has pretty much the same amount of boobshots naked girls etc. You guys talk like this all is a recent development but that's plain wrong. You always had these elements in anime. And this stuff never was the biggest part of the shows that aired in one season. What you guys are doing is blaming crappy source material on the anime makers that have to make money somehow. There aint enough great mangas around to keep all the animestudios busy. So obviously they have to do shows that dont have a deep story or are just some nice comedies. It was sated before in this thread, slice of life shows never get as popular as shows with a deeper plot. So in the long run those shows will always be better for the anime studios. and triangle is absolutely right in what he wrote
Yes, because listing a single example that doesn't have much censorship anyway totally validates your argument. If you think there is as much fanservice/border-line porn in present day anime as 10 years ago, you're crazy. There is enough good source material going around, as there are tons more manga than anime. Also, don't know about you, but K-On!! is one of the most popular shows. While their characters are not even made by Sunrise, they absolutely dominated the New Type character polls.
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On December 10 2010 00:18 Ecael wrote:
At the point when you wouldn't list Banner of the Stars as a classic, your opinion is completely invalid.
I am half joking.
Only half.
On a more serious note, if you honestly think the likes of Durarara and Sora no Woto can compare to Banner, I must say that you are insane. At best maybe the Durarara light novels, all of them combined, can compare to Banner, but that's the fanboy in me speaking. But seriously, Sora no Woto barely did anything because it was too short to do anything with, DRRR was half good and half crap because of source materials sucking till later on.
But seriously, as Blobskillz pointed out, there is a serious lack of source materials. Or rather, it hasn't hit a point where source materials are lacking yet (Like Southlight would complain about how the AHEAD series is not animated just as I would complain about Zaregoto and Ningen series not getting animation), but the new mangas, VN and LNs that's getting animated are mostly crap. Pretty much the only reason I am excited for Spring is because OreTsuba and Steins;Gate have some of the best source materials I've seen in shows for a good year or so now -.-
as a fan of Banner of the Stars, I'd say it has all the potential to be classic but failed the expectation. I is just awsome, II is decent, but III and IV are crappy and then the authur evaporate into no where and I might never see the ending in my lifetime. So much disappointment.
DRRR on the other hand maintained its high quatity, I hope there will be a second season since its the bestselling LN in Japan this year.
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On December 10 2010 00:36 bearbuddy wrote:
Yes, because listing a single example that doesn't have much censorship anyway totally validates your argument. If you think there is as much fanservice/border-line porn in present day anime as 10 years ago, you're crazy. There is enough good source material going around, as there are tons more manga than anime. Also, don't know about you, but K-On!! is one of the most popular shows. While their characters are not even made by Sunrise, they absolutely dominated the New Type character polls.
so you dont have any examples or arguments that doesnt validate your psot either dude.
The avarage anime viewership is getting older each year, so obviously the animeindustry will react to that and produce stuff more suited to adults not so much of your beloved mecha shonin stuff. When the next generation of japanese kids starts watching anime it will all turn back to how it was 5 years ago, given that there are some decent manga and enough crappy shonin battlemangas. That's how the anime genres will change over time.
Real masterpieces are NOT bound to that development, nor are they something you will see every season.
I suspect most of you falling into the trap of overrating anime that you saw when you were younger and easier to influence.
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On December 10 2010 00:41 mofuli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 00:18 Ecael wrote:
At the point when you wouldn't list Banner of the Stars as a classic, your opinion is completely invalid.
I am half joking.
Only half.
On a more serious note, if you honestly think the likes of Durarara and Sora no Woto can compare to Banner, I must say that you are insane. At best maybe the Durarara light novels, all of them combined, can compare to Banner, but that's the fanboy in me speaking. But seriously, Sora no Woto barely did anything because it was too short to do anything with, DRRR was half good and half crap because of source materials sucking till later on.
But seriously, as Blobskillz pointed out, there is a serious lack of source materials. Or rather, it hasn't hit a point where source materials are lacking yet (Like Southlight would complain about how the AHEAD series is not animated just as I would complain about Zaregoto and Ningen series not getting animation), but the new mangas, VN and LNs that's getting animated are mostly crap. Pretty much the only reason I am excited for Spring is because OreTsuba and Steins;Gate have some of the best source materials I've seen in shows for a good year or so now -.- as a fan of Banner of the Stars, I'd say it has all the potential to be classic but failed the expectation. I is just awsome, II is decent, but III and IV are crappy and then the authur exaporate into no where and I might never see the ending in my lifetime. So much disappointment. DRRR on the other hand maintained its high quatity, I hope there will be a second season since its the bestselling LN in Japan this year.
Amusingly enough, I didn't like II as much, but thought III and IV was brilliant in how far we've seen Jinro develop since Crest. But yeah I have no idea what that author is doing.
DRRR quality is meh at best to me, it is seriously just riding on the popularity of Baccano. At a point when we are throwing Shizuo in a love triangle with one party being a loli (who is at least awesome), the author is really running out of ideas -.- Oh, and I am pretty sure nekomonogatari and index outsold DRRR?
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On December 09 2010 17:10 triangle wrote:
But this also seems to be a problem that has existed for a while in tons of shows. Eden of the East is the most egregious example, with a plot that meandered and went nowhere, characters that never really developed, and a badly handled ending. I think that you just don't watch older shows that do this because those shows aren't that good.
Finally, I've never seen Lucky Star, but I'm puzzled by all the comparisons to Haruhi. I know Lucky Star references Haruhi a lot, but do the shows have anything else in common?
I'm not denying the idea that this trend wasn't present in older shows (I've dropped a few shows based on this trend), but I think that the trend has become more apparently dominant in recent years. Also, how old a show is =/= it's automatically better/worse than modern worse (a predominant perspective amongst various fans), personally.
The two series are only heavily compared because:
-They're both produced by KyoAni
-The voice actors from Haruhi, for the most part, were recycled in Lucky Star
Beyond that, Lucky Star is just a textbook example of a slice-of-life series whilst Haruhi, at least in the later chapters, moves about with a somewhat complex plot involving (read: abusing) the concept of time travel.
On December 09 2010 15:28 Pfhor wrote:
Maybe it's just my experiences with them then, because it really seems like the Nanoha fanbase really takes the whole "ogling over the female characters" way too far. The show hardly even has the fan service to promote that, especially when compared to series like Strike Witches which pretty much encourage that kind of behavior. Nanoha is a decently executed magical girl show with some Scifi action elements, why does the fanbase seem to focus on Fate's prepubescent ass and shipping characters around.
Or maybe my problem is with every anime fanbase? I dunno, people will sexualize anything these days.
Unfortunately, sex sells and thus many anime series throw in a lot of unnecessary fanservice in order to sell out to the creepier population of the anime fanbase. It CAN be seldom funny if thrown in at random times but at the rate that it's used it completely inhibits any series' potential to develop its characters and plot and present an overall enjoyable story.
For example (not a good one but it's the first one that came to mind), a lot of fans looks at Hinagiku Katsura (Hayate no Gotoku!) and immediately swoon over concepts like "zOmg TeH SEx!!!1!1" or "KawAIIIIII!!!1!", completely ignoring the fact that she's amongst one of the most fleshed out and believable characters in the series (save the whole moving/attacking/thinking at a superhuman rate but that's like a precondition of being an anime character these days =/; while relatively cliche, at least a sufficient reason is presented for her overall demeanor/attitude towards life and she's one of the few characters that can truly connect with Hayate on a level deeper than a lot of the other characters ever could.
Unfortunately, this image was overturned by the anime adaptation where random eyecatches and other scenes focus on Hayate running into her (or the other females for that matter) when they're stripping (granted this occurs in the manga as well but not as much as the anime displays it >3<).
On December 09 2010 16:27 Spazer wrote:
I can't even begin to fathom the amount of fan rage there would be if they tried skipping conquests (they'd probably skip one of my favorites, judging by character polls D: ). Granted, there are a lot of girls, but there's nothing wrong with having a long series, especially when source material is plentiful. Maybe they'll cut some filler chapters, but I think that's all they would be brave enough to try.
Actually, now that I think about it, skipping girls isn't really an option. Keima's revelation in the current arc wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Who would they have skipped? The only character(s) I can imagine them skimming over purely because their arcs are really short and don't really contribute much towards the overall development would be + Show Spoiler +Kujou, Minami, and Reiko, possibly even Sumire (Tenri/Diana and Chihiro)
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On December 10 2010 00:56 Ecael wrote:
DRRR quality is meh at best to me, it is seriously just riding on the popularity of Baccano. At a point when we are throwing Shizuo in a love triangle with one party being a loli (who is at least awesome), the author is really running out of ideas -.- Oh, and I am pretty sure nekomonogatari and index outsold DRRR?
Judging by Baccano, I don't think authur will focus on any love triangles. Also I believe the popularity of DRRR has somewhat surpassed baccano. Oricon list DRRR 1-3 as the three best sold novels in 2010, maybe index as whole(there are 22 of them, awesome) sold better, but it's still some achievement.
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On December 10 2010 01:18 mofuli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 00:56 Ecael wrote:
DRRR quality is meh at best to me, it is seriously just riding on the popularity of Baccano. At a point when we are throwing Shizuo in a love triangle with one party being a loli (who is at least awesome), the author is really running out of ideas -.- Oh, and I am pretty sure nekomonogatari and index outsold DRRR? Judging by Baccano, I don't think authur will focus on any love triangles. Also I believe the popularity of DRRR has somewhat surpassed baccano. Oricon list DRRR 1-3 as the three best sold novels in 2010, maybe index as whole(there are 22 of them, awesome) sold better, but it's still some achievement.
That's just riding on the anime popularity though, it isn't even like there was some new version of 1~3 out, it is just that anime covered those 3 vols.
And yeah, I don't think the author will focus on that, but it is just that the last couple of vols has been boring to say the least. I haven't got to read vol 8 yet though, so maybe it'll finally get somewhere.
HitoriTomoyo, you realize that the point with Hina doesn't make much sense at all right, If you are going to look for sex symbols, Hayate isn't really a good choice both from the animate front and the doujin front 
At that, season 2 of anime didn't have much of that, and season 1 is notorious in how it just ignored source material.
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On December 09 2010 21:21 Blobskillz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 18:14 bearbuddy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 09 2010 17:10 triangle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 16:20 Sentenal wrote:On December 09 2010 14:51 HitoriTomoyo wrote:On December 09 2010 10:21 Sentenal wrote:
I'll try to elaborate with as little opinion as possible, which will be hard since the entire premise of the question is based on an opinion (whether or not anime sucks now or not).
Lucky Star started a trend of producing moe-blob slice of life shows. Have you noticed a noticable drop on the darker, action oriented shows recently? Have you noticed a rise in the amount of life of life shows, or moeblob shows recently? You might be able to credit Haruhi with this (because Lucky Star was partly inspired by Haruhi IMO), but I wouldn't because IMO Haruhi was a good show. Personally: Haruhi somewhat started it. Lucky Star solidified it/continued it. Other smaller shows followed the trend (Kannagi/Minami-ke) K-ON! popularized the concept and made it solidly popular amongst mainstream audiences. Or in Starcraft terms (sorry if this offends anyone) to simplify matters, the trend's rising in modern anime can be comparable to the development of the Bisu Build: Haruhi = DaezanG Lucky Star/smaller slice-of-life series = Nal_rA K-ON! = Bisu (This is open to debate however: some can see Lucky Star in place of K-ON!, in which case K-ON! is considered to simply be the next carrier of the moe-centered slice-of-life trend, in which it can be reworked as: Haruhi = DaezanG + Nal_rA Lucky Star = Bisu K-ON! = Kal/free/mOvie/Stork/any modern successful Protoss). Personally Lucky Star wasn't too bad of a show and isn't the primary antagonist in the recent rise of moe-centered slice-of-life series; while it may have had a hand in its beginning moments, I think K-ON! is the largest offender of popularizing the said trend. Whether if its good or bad is a subjective opinion and is a seperate matter. However, I DO have a comment concerning the quality of the executions of anime series in the 2010 season: while debatable, there are strong signs of a particular trend gradually showing itself which if not quickly taken care of brings the quality of future anime series into question. The trend for 2010 series appears to be: -Strong, solid beginning with decent introductions and a promise to deliver a great storyline with characters possessing a lot of potential to be developed in various ways -Partial deviation from initial expectations/intentions/general developments, resulting in the gradual development of doubt, though the quality has not yet dropped to the point of being dropped on a large scale -Series either starts to completely lose its way or already has: character and plot development have taken a backseat in favor of filler material resulting in a feeling of the series simply being dragged on for no good reason and genuine interest in the series is lost -Series suddenly remembers that it had a plot but because of the unnecessary filler material that took up precious development time, the conclusions on the plot and characters becomes rushed and inconclusive as a whole; many questions are left unanswered, resulting in an unsatisfactory response from a good portion of the audience Granted not ALL series that have aired in 2010 are offenders of this case but it has been making itself more and more apparent as of late. The strongest offender of this trend this year as Angel Beats!, and currently airing series that are guilty of this are OreImo and Fortune Arterial (I would accuse MM!, but I just stopped taking it seriously after the Dragon Ball parody episode). tl;dr: 2010 wasn't a very strong year for anime. I hope 2011 strongly makes up for it. Personally, I think Lucky Star was the worst show ever made, and it also represents everything I hate about modern anime, thus I give it more credit than K-On! in "destroying" anime. Even though K-On! certainly contributed in its own right, along with Haruhi. I see this sentiment a lot, and I don't really understand it. How many moeblob slice of life shows are there anyway? Not a lot. In fact, looking at next season I don't think there are any. Acting as if anime is being invaded by a horde of moeblob shows seems to be a misrepresentation. (And wtf is a moeblob show anyway? Is it just a show with no plot involving cute girls doing cute things? Aria seems like the definition of a moeblob show in that case, which most people would say it isn't). Or is it that moe is entering into "otherwise good" shows more and more, and making them worse? But there have been moe elements in lots of shows for a very long time now -- hard to see how it is substantially worse now. How is K-On "destroying" anime if it has made a crapton of money? You seem to say that studios will make less action anime and whatnot. That might be true if K-on was crowding out the market (I'm not gonna spend money on a Guts wallscroll, I'll spend on a Yui one instead), but presumably it has a somewhat different fanbase than the shows you like. In other words, K-on and similar shows should have no effect at all on shows with different fanbases. The only way they would is if studios start dropping those shows in favor of more moe ones, and while lots of shows right now have moe elements, is it really more than in the past? I don't think you can merely assert yes without evidence to back up that claim. Alternatively, what if the shows you like aren't profitable in the first place? Could a successful moe show you hate prop up a studio you like so they can continue making anime you like. (Can the strong sales of High School of the Dead help Madhouse?) Or maybe you're worried that studios just won't bother with the type of anime you like since moe is so much more popular. But if studios were confident they would make a profit on an anime, they'd almost certainly make it (since so many shows are net losses). Basically, if there are less and less of the type of shows you like, that's because those shows were never that successful in the first place. Moe has nothing to do with that. Regarding this: Show nested quote +-Strong, solid beginning with decent introductions and a promise to deliver a great storyline with characters possessing a lot of potential to be developed in various ways
-Partial deviation from initial expectations/intentions/general developments, resulting in the gradual development of doubt, though the quality has not yet dropped to the point of being dropped on a large scale
-Series either starts to completely lose its way or already has: character and plot development have taken a backseat in favor of filler material resulting in a feeling of the series simply being dragged on for no good reason and genuine interest in the series is lost
-Series suddenly remembers that it had a plot but because of the unnecessary filler material that took up precious development time, the conclusions on the plot and characters becomes rushed and inconclusive as a whole; many questions are left unanswered, resulting in an unsatisfactory response from a good portion of the audience But this also seems to be a problem that has existed for a while in tons of shows. Eden of the East is the most egregious example, with a plot that meandered and went nowhere, characters that never really developed, and a badly handled ending. I think that you just don't watch older shows that do this because those shows aren't that good. Finally, I've never seen Lucky Star, but I'm puzzled by all the comparisons to Haruhi. I know Lucky Star references Haruhi a lot, but do the shows have anything else in common? Edit: Show nested quote +10 years ago, I remember going to a Starcraft LAN party and someone brought Gundam Wing CDs/DVDs to watch. Not many people there knew what anime was, but it was pretty funny when Heavy-arms unloaded everything it had and everyone went woah that's awesome =P. I don't think it's longer possible to sit down with a group of people not exposed to anime and present most of the recent titles and not be embarrassed about yourself. Yeah, but again, how different is that from before? Look at the anime that aired 10 years ago: 90% of that looks like shit. I guess you could sum up my whole post with the thought that 90% of anime, like most stuff, is crap. We only watch older anime that is good, but a lot of people watch both good and crappy airing anime. They then conclude that airing anime is worse. Wait 5 years, and you may well see people talking about how great 2010 was (referring to only 5 or 6 shows) and how crap 2015 is (referring to 30 shows). touch'e man, touch'e. But it is a rather diverse selection, and as it appeared as if in an experimental stage (between the mecha 90's and the VN later half of the 00's. However, I still stand by my statement that there's a distinctively less "otaku" flair to the shows-- and that the popular ones are generally more accepted by the mainstream and the western standards. If we talked about anime in 2001, we would be talking about Rurouni Kenshin Reminiscence, Hellsing, Prince of Tennis, etc. If we're talking about shows right now... well, we would be getting panty-shots and boob shots that are a surprising gimmick for more DVD/BD sales. as if boob shots are soemthing new from the recent years. Easy example, look at all the maho shoujo stuff like Sailor Moon, that stuff is old and has pretty much the same amount of boobshots naked girls etc. You guys talk like this all is a recent development but that's plain wrong. You always had these elements in anime. And this stuff never was the biggest part of the shows that aired in one season. What you guys are doing is blaming crappy source material on the anime makers that have to make money somehow. There aint enough great mangas around to keep all the animestudios busy. So obviously they have to do shows that dont have a deep story or are just some nice comedies. It was sated before in this thread, slice of life shows never get as popular as shows with a deeper plot. So in the long run those shows will always be better for the anime studios. and triangle is absolutely right in what he wrote
lmao sailor moon has boob shots? dont think you remb it correctly. sure they would show cleavage or the occasional panty shot when their skirts got flipped (short as hell as they were), that hardly compares to the ecchi-ness of today where some shows have the viewing angle purposely set so we could see the characters panties, or characters clothes ripping off at the slightest gust of wind. its quite embarassing.
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On December 10 2010 01:24 Ecael wrote:HitoriTomoyo, you realize that the point with Hina doesn't make much sense at all right, If you are going to look for sex symbols, Hayate isn't really a good choice both from the animate front and the doujin front At that, season 2 of anime didn't have much of that, and season 1 is notorious in how it just ignored source material.
Hence why I stated early on that it wasn't the greatest example out there, but given how sleep deprived I am (well everyone is really), I'll just take all of the hazings I'm going to get from giving a bad example and deal with it; too unenthusiastic to fight back much right now. >.>
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On December 10 2010 01:29 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:21 Blobskillz wrote:On December 09 2010 18:14 bearbuddy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 09 2010 17:10 triangle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 16:20 Sentenal wrote:On December 09 2010 14:51 HitoriTomoyo wrote:On December 09 2010 10:21 Sentenal wrote:
I'll try to elaborate with as little opinion as possible, which will be hard since the entire premise of the question is based on an opinion (whether or not anime sucks now or not).
Lucky Star started a trend of producing moe-blob slice of life shows. Have you noticed a noticable drop on the darker, action oriented shows recently? Have you noticed a rise in the amount of life of life shows, or moeblob shows recently? You might be able to credit Haruhi with this (because Lucky Star was partly inspired by Haruhi IMO), but I wouldn't because IMO Haruhi was a good show. Personally: Haruhi somewhat started it. Lucky Star solidified it/continued it. Other smaller shows followed the trend (Kannagi/Minami-ke) K-ON! popularized the concept and made it solidly popular amongst mainstream audiences. Or in Starcraft terms (sorry if this offends anyone) to simplify matters, the trend's rising in modern anime can be comparable to the development of the Bisu Build: Haruhi = DaezanG Lucky Star/smaller slice-of-life series = Nal_rA K-ON! = Bisu (This is open to debate however: some can see Lucky Star in place of K-ON!, in which case K-ON! is considered to simply be the next carrier of the moe-centered slice-of-life trend, in which it can be reworked as: Haruhi = DaezanG + Nal_rA Lucky Star = Bisu K-ON! = Kal/free/mOvie/Stork/any modern successful Protoss). Personally Lucky Star wasn't too bad of a show and isn't the primary antagonist in the recent rise of moe-centered slice-of-life series; while it may have had a hand in its beginning moments, I think K-ON! is the largest offender of popularizing the said trend. Whether if its good or bad is a subjective opinion and is a seperate matter. However, I DO have a comment concerning the quality of the executions of anime series in the 2010 season: while debatable, there are strong signs of a particular trend gradually showing itself which if not quickly taken care of brings the quality of future anime series into question. The trend for 2010 series appears to be: -Strong, solid beginning with decent introductions and a promise to deliver a great storyline with characters possessing a lot of potential to be developed in various ways -Partial deviation from initial expectations/intentions/general developments, resulting in the gradual development of doubt, though the quality has not yet dropped to the point of being dropped on a large scale -Series either starts to completely lose its way or already has: character and plot development have taken a backseat in favor of filler material resulting in a feeling of the series simply being dragged on for no good reason and genuine interest in the series is lost -Series suddenly remembers that it had a plot but because of the unnecessary filler material that took up precious development time, the conclusions on the plot and characters becomes rushed and inconclusive as a whole; many questions are left unanswered, resulting in an unsatisfactory response from a good portion of the audience Granted not ALL series that have aired in 2010 are offenders of this case but it has been making itself more and more apparent as of late. The strongest offender of this trend this year as Angel Beats!, and currently airing series that are guilty of this are OreImo and Fortune Arterial (I would accuse MM!, but I just stopped taking it seriously after the Dragon Ball parody episode). tl;dr: 2010 wasn't a very strong year for anime. I hope 2011 strongly makes up for it. Personally, I think Lucky Star was the worst show ever made, and it also represents everything I hate about modern anime, thus I give it more credit than K-On! in "destroying" anime. Even though K-On! certainly contributed in its own right, along with Haruhi. I see this sentiment a lot, and I don't really understand it. How many moeblob slice of life shows are there anyway? Not a lot. In fact, looking at next season I don't think there are any. Acting as if anime is being invaded by a horde of moeblob shows seems to be a misrepresentation. (And wtf is a moeblob show anyway? Is it just a show with no plot involving cute girls doing cute things? Aria seems like the definition of a moeblob show in that case, which most people would say it isn't). Or is it that moe is entering into "otherwise good" shows more and more, and making them worse? But there have been moe elements in lots of shows for a very long time now -- hard to see how it is substantially worse now. How is K-On "destroying" anime if it has made a crapton of money? You seem to say that studios will make less action anime and whatnot. That might be true if K-on was crowding out the market (I'm not gonna spend money on a Guts wallscroll, I'll spend on a Yui one instead), but presumably it has a somewhat different fanbase than the shows you like. In other words, K-on and similar shows should have no effect at all on shows with different fanbases. The only way they would is if studios start dropping those shows in favor of more moe ones, and while lots of shows right now have moe elements, is it really more than in the past? I don't think you can merely assert yes without evidence to back up that claim. Alternatively, what if the shows you like aren't profitable in the first place? Could a successful moe show you hate prop up a studio you like so they can continue making anime you like. (Can the strong sales of High School of the Dead help Madhouse?) Or maybe you're worried that studios just won't bother with the type of anime you like since moe is so much more popular. But if studios were confident they would make a profit on an anime, they'd almost certainly make it (since so many shows are net losses). Basically, if there are less and less of the type of shows you like, that's because those shows were never that successful in the first place. Moe has nothing to do with that. Regarding this: Show nested quote +-Strong, solid beginning with decent introductions and a promise to deliver a great storyline with characters possessing a lot of potential to be developed in various ways
-Partial deviation from initial expectations/intentions/general developments, resulting in the gradual development of doubt, though the quality has not yet dropped to the point of being dropped on a large scale
-Series either starts to completely lose its way or already has: character and plot development have taken a backseat in favor of filler material resulting in a feeling of the series simply being dragged on for no good reason and genuine interest in the series is lost
-Series suddenly remembers that it had a plot but because of the unnecessary filler material that took up precious development time, the conclusions on the plot and characters becomes rushed and inconclusive as a whole; many questions are left unanswered, resulting in an unsatisfactory response from a good portion of the audience But this also seems to be a problem that has existed for a while in tons of shows. Eden of the East is the most egregious example, with a plot that meandered and went nowhere, characters that never really developed, and a badly handled ending. I think that you just don't watch older shows that do this because those shows aren't that good. Finally, I've never seen Lucky Star, but I'm puzzled by all the comparisons to Haruhi. I know Lucky Star references Haruhi a lot, but do the shows have anything else in common? Edit: Show nested quote +10 years ago, I remember going to a Starcraft LAN party and someone brought Gundam Wing CDs/DVDs to watch. Not many people there knew what anime was, but it was pretty funny when Heavy-arms unloaded everything it had and everyone went woah that's awesome =P. I don't think it's longer possible to sit down with a group of people not exposed to anime and present most of the recent titles and not be embarrassed about yourself. Yeah, but again, how different is that from before? Look at the anime that aired 10 years ago: 90% of that looks like shit. I guess you could sum up my whole post with the thought that 90% of anime, like most stuff, is crap. We only watch older anime that is good, but a lot of people watch both good and crappy airing anime. They then conclude that airing anime is worse. Wait 5 years, and you may well see people talking about how great 2010 was (referring to only 5 or 6 shows) and how crap 2015 is (referring to 30 shows). touch'e man, touch'e. But it is a rather diverse selection, and as it appeared as if in an experimental stage (between the mecha 90's and the VN later half of the 00's. However, I still stand by my statement that there's a distinctively less "otaku" flair to the shows-- and that the popular ones are generally more accepted by the mainstream and the western standards. If we talked about anime in 2001, we would be talking about Rurouni Kenshin Reminiscence, Hellsing, Prince of Tennis, etc. If we're talking about shows right now... well, we would be getting panty-shots and boob shots that are a surprising gimmick for more DVD/BD sales. as if boob shots are soemthing new from the recent years. Easy example, look at all the maho shoujo stuff like Sailor Moon, that stuff is old and has pretty much the same amount of boobshots naked girls etc. You guys talk like this all is a recent development but that's plain wrong. You always had these elements in anime. And this stuff never was the biggest part of the shows that aired in one season. What you guys are doing is blaming crappy source material on the anime makers that have to make money somehow. There aint enough great mangas around to keep all the animestudios busy. So obviously they have to do shows that dont have a deep story or are just some nice comedies. It was sated before in this thread, slice of life shows never get as popular as shows with a deeper plot. So in the long run those shows will always be better for the anime studios. and triangle is absolutely right in what he wrote lmao sailor moon has boob shots? dont think you remb it correctly. sure they would show cleavage or the occasional panty shot when their skirts got flipped (short as hell as they were), that hardly compares to the ecchi-ness of today where some shows have the viewing angle purposely set so we could see the characters panties, or characters clothes ripping off at the slightest gust of wind. its quite embarassing.
then go watch Ranma
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On December 10 2010 01:24 Ecael wrote:That's just riding on the anime popularity though, it isn't even like there was some new version of 1~3 out, it is just that anime covered those 3 vols. And yeah, I don't think the author will focus on that, but it is just that the last couple of vols has been boring to say the least. I haven't got to read vol 8 yet though, so maybe it'll finally get somewhere. HitoriTomoyo, you realize that the point with Hina doesn't make much sense at all right, If you are going to look for sex symbols, Hayate isn't really a good choice both from the animate front and the doujin front
of course its riding on the anime, but its still impressive as there are a lot of animated LN this year as well.
recent vols Boring? I found the recent development of characters very interesting (e.g. Mikado), the scene when Mikado and Kida met again was so sad and touchy for example.
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I haven't got to read vol 8 yet, but 7 was filler material basically, and 6 might as well as have been for Mikado.
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On December 10 2010 00:25 NB wrote:
Im not watching:
+ The world god only knows: I follow the manga and by my experience, im the type of people who never like a movie make out of books that i have read
The anime actually follows the manga very closely and does a pretty good job overall.
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On December 10 2010 00:52 Blobskillz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 00:36 bearbuddy wrote:
Yes, because listing a single example that doesn't have much censorship anyway totally validates your argument. If you think there is as much fanservice/border-line porn in present day anime as 10 years ago, you're crazy. There is enough good source material going around, as there are tons more manga than anime. Also, don't know about you, but K-On!! is one of the most popular shows. While their characters are not even made by Sunrise, they absolutely dominated the New Type character polls. so you dont have any examples or arguments that doesnt validate your psot either dude. The avarage anime viewership is getting older each year, so obviously the animeindustry will react to that and produce stuff more suited to adults not so much of your beloved mecha shonin stuff. When the next generation of japanese kids starts watching anime it will all turn back to how it was 5 years ago, given that there are some decent manga and enough crappy shonin battlemangas. That's how the anime genres will change over time. Real masterpieces are NOT bound to that development, nor are they something you will see every season. I suspect most of you falling into the trap of overrating anime that you saw when you were younger and easier to influence.
Okay, from this season alone, we have Yosuga no Sora, To love Ru, Queen's Blade, Samurai Girl, Sora no Otoshimono, Koe de Oshigoto, and probably various others that I don't know. Needless to say, we have fanservice stuff from the regular shows as well.
I assure you that the audience these days are not restricted to the same as the audience from a while ago with changing tastes, or else EVA movies would not have topped the Japanese Box office for multiple weeks... Haruhi was at number 6 for a single week. The thing is, EVA attracts a more diverse spectrum of audience-- otaku and other folks alike.
Your point illustrates my point about the anime industry providing service to a particular niche. You do not want to follow a single group and continue to service to them while excluding others, especially when there's such a bad stigma surrounding otakus. There needs to be new blood, or else the industry will die in due time (say as much about piracy as you want, but the main culprit is that the influx is smaller than the exodus). The anime and manga industry is under contraction for a few years now, while this can be attributed to harder economic times, it doesn't explain why Hollywood is putting out record setting numbers after another.
Edit: let me clarify that I'm not altogether against sex and service scenes and whatnot. I actually felt that the mainstream Japanese media and entertainment are too repressed. However, most are just excessive and unnecessary and detracts from the overall story. Zombie apocalypse? Let's get bouncing boobs dodging bullets. Pan up? Let's pan up some skirts. Really?
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On December 10 2010 03:33 bearbuddy wrote:
Okay, from this season alone, we have Yosuga no Sora, To love Ru, Queen's Blade, Samurai Girl, Sora no Otoshimono, Koe de Oshigoto, and probably various others that I don't know. Needless to say, we have fanservice stuff from the regular shows as well.
I assure you that the audience these days are not restricted to the same as the audience from a while ago, or else EVA movies would not have topped the Japanese Box office for multiple weeks... Haruhi was at number 6 for a single week. The thing is, EVA attracts a more diverse spectrum of audience-- otaku and other folks alike.
Your point illustrates my point about the anime industry providing service to a particular niche. You do not want to follow a single group and continue to service to them while excluding others, especially when there's such a bad stigma surrounding otakus. There needs to be new blood, or else the industry will die in due time (say as much about piracy as you want, but the main culprit is that the influx is smaller than the exodus). The anime and manga industry is under contraction for a few years now, while this can be attributed to harder economic times, it doesn't explain why Hollywood is putting out record setting numbers after another.
I am not sure if my english in my last post was so bad or maybe I didnt write enough.
You have more animes mainly ( that's the important part ) focussed on fanservice now because the average viewership is older then it was some years ago. I said mainly because fanservice always was a part of anime but it's easy to see that it gets more, due to a lot of reasons but I think the main reason is that it's easier this way to appeal to an older viewership. Animes like K-ON are no exception here the fanservice doesnt derive directly from usage of boobies bu from the appeal to a certain fetish depending on what girl you like ( I mean Yui is great right ).
I said before real masterpieces are not bound to this and will always have a bigger viewership because of the things allready mentioned in recent posts from others here. I do count Evangelion as a masterpiece, aside from Shinji *cough*, but even the Eva movies are not free of fanservice. Look at Mari she's the best example. The studio had to do something to get the viewers into the movie theatre and when that means doing a solely based on fanservice character even your Evangelion aint free of that development. But this also underlines my point. Some years ago Big mechas and a quite good story were enough to start a cult around an anime. To do the same today even if it only means getting people into the theatre you hafta use some fanservice. How far in this particular case is influenced by the fact that the movies are a retelling I am not sure. But I am sure Mari helped quite a bit getting people that saw Evangelion for the first time.
I can only agree on your last point. Anime industry has to cut ties with the hardcore freaks to move on but as long as those hardcore viewers churn out the most money that wont happen.
sorry for my crappy english I try my best
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I didn't really like the Chihiro arc all that much : / oh well.
Hakua in full color....*drools*
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I'm going to spoiler this so that people don't get to agitated from the continuous exchange of walls of text.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 10 2010 03:52 Blobskillz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 03:33 bearbuddy wrote:
Okay, from this season alone, we have Yosuga no Sora, To love Ru, Queen's Blade, Samurai Girl, Sora no Otoshimono, Koe de Oshigoto, and probably various others that I don't know. Needless to say, we have fanservice stuff from the regular shows as well.
I assure you that the audience these days are not restricted to the same as the audience from a while ago, or else EVA movies would not have topped the Japanese Box office for multiple weeks... Haruhi was at number 6 for a single week. The thing is, EVA attracts a more diverse spectrum of audience-- otaku and other folks alike.
Your point illustrates my point about the anime industry providing service to a particular niche. You do not want to follow a single group and continue to service to them while excluding others, especially when there's such a bad stigma surrounding otakus. There needs to be new blood, or else the industry will die in due time (say as much about piracy as you want, but the main culprit is that the influx is smaller than the exodus). The anime and manga industry is under contraction for a few years now, while this can be attributed to harder economic times, it doesn't explain why Hollywood is putting out record setting numbers after another. I am not sure if my english in my last post was so bad or maybe I didnt write enough. You have more animes mainly ( that's the important part ) focussed on fanservice now because the average viewership is older then it was some years ago. I said mainly because fanservice always was a part of anime but it's easy to see that it gets more, due to a lot of reasons but I think the main reason is that it's easier this way to appeal to an older viewership. Animes like K-ON are no exception here the fanservice doesnt derive directly from usage of boobies bu from the appeal to a certain fetish depending on what girl you like ( I mean Yui is great right ). I said before real masterpieces are not bound to this and will always have a bigger viewership because of the things allready mentioned in recent posts from others here. I do count Evangelion as a masterpiece, aside from Shinji *cough*, but even the Eva movies are not free of fanservice. Look at Mari she's the best example. The studio had to do something to get the viewers into the movie theatre and when that means doing a solely based on fanservice character even your Evangelion aint free of that development. But this also underlines my point. Some years ago Big mechas and a quite good story were enough to start a cult around an anime. To do the same today even if it only means getting people into the theatre you hafta use some fanservice. How far in this particular case is influenced by the fact that the movies are a retelling I am not sure. But I am sure Mari helped quite a bit getting people that saw Evangelion for the first time. I can only agree on your last point. Anime industry has to cut ties with the hardcore freaks to move on but as long as those hardcore viewers churn out the most money that wont happen. sorry for my crappy english I try my best More service doesn't necessarily mean to appeal to older audience, I'm sure 13 years old with raging hormones would be the ones that it appeals to the most. However, it does appeal to a certain group, hence why I say they're alienating the mainstream to go with the particulars. I'm sure Shauni is the epitome of what a more "mature" viewer would be like, as he hates shounen and harems/fanservice alike. But even then, he is drawn to the anime from earlier times. I have actually been bashing Gundam Wing and AC gundams-- or rather, been bashing the direction that gundam series have been taking (see earlier posts in this thread, there's quite a few of them) despite loving them as a child. I have just recently watched Gankutuou, and despite it being a Gonzo production, it was quite sublime. There may be some nostalgia lens involved, but there are quite a few that I've gone back and watched just recently and quite liked. EVA is a particular case in that it appeals to almost everybody. The Mechs are loved by people into robots, the girls are fairly stereotypical (tsundere and kuudere), and the story is loved by those who love by psycho-babbling. Yet, aside from Shinji, these aspects never obstructed each other. The nudity and the sex scenes were sparse and not out of the way and actually developed characters. While I do not consider this the best anime ever, it's something that I can get behind. The anime industry does not have to so call "cut-ties" with the extreme of the bunch-- they just have to stop them from pervading everything. However, there needs to be clear distinctions. Hentai has existed for a long time-- and I have no qualm with that. It's like porn, it's there, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Yet, when there are ink blots and fogs doing censorship on more than 30% of the screens of supposedly non-hentai shows, there is clearly something wrong. Not to mention it's difficult to take anything seriously after that point. Then there are stuff like-- oh, let's put a cliche'd hot spring, beach, or whatever episode that almost seems mandatory nowadays. Heck, there are episodes with breast enlargement and fanservice in shounen action anime. Edit: as an additional note, I would like to say that this spill-over phenomenon isn't limited to fanservice, but also things like pathetic male leads from harem and artistic changes.
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so the question still remains, why do we have an apparent lack in animes with a considerable depth in their story even though it's commonly known that those animes tend to have a bigger audience and thus creat more profit. And that's where I am not sure to be true. To me it seems like missing source material, but that'd still leave original animations which can be quite successfull ( Angel beats eg. ). And as was pointed out before there are still a crapton of Mangas around that dont have an anime. Which is quite fascinating considering that Mangas that didnt even get close to finishing yet allready got animes.
I dont think you can solely blame it on an increased need for tits. Which brings me to the assumption that a combination of getting too old for anime, lacking money on the customer side and that leading to less money for studios. And all this ends in a way that the studios have to produce animes that appeal in a surefire way to a crowd that is willing to spend loads of money for their anime.
These people tend to be harcore otakus and most of those seemingly tend to build up an increased interest in more or less pointless character driven shows.
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On December 10 2010 04:56 Blobskillz wrote:
so the question still remains, why do we have an apparent lack in animes with a considerable depth in their story even though it's commonly known that those animes tend to have a bigger audience and thus creat more profit. And that's where I am not sure to be true. To me it seems like missing source material, but that'd still leave original animations which can be quite successfull ( Angel beats eg. ). And as was pointed out before there are still a crapton of Mangas around that dont have an anime. Which is quite fascinating considering that Mangas that didnt even get close to finishing yet allready got animes.
I dont think you can solely blame it on an increased need for tits. Which brings me to the assumption that a combination of getting too old for anime, lacking money on the customer side and that leading to less money for studios. And all this ends in a way that the studios have to produce animes that appeal in a surefire way to a crowd that is willing to spend loads of money for their anime.
These people tend to be harcore otakus and most of those seemingly tend to build up an increased interest in more or less pointless character driven shows.
Because anime with considerable depth doesn't mean a bigger audience and more profits. I have no idea where you are getting that concept from. FRANCHISES make money, not titles.
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On December 10 2010 05:54 Judicator wrote:
Because anime with considerable depth doesn't mean a bigger audience and more profits. I have no idea where you are getting that concept from. FRANCHISES make money, not titles.
yeah that's right franchises make money I never doubted that because franchise is such a wide term that it practically combines everything you can buy related to the anime in one group so I think you missed my point.
When you can name one franchise deriving from an anime that's older then 2 years and a moeblob or titty anime if you cant then I think my former statement about a corellation between story and longterm money is still right
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EPT
