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Gear Two!
[Manga] One Piece - Page 1603
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This is a thread that is dedicated to discussing One Piece. Do not read this thread if you are not currently caught up as there are spoilers in here. If an episode or a chapter has already been officially released, then it is not necessary to post using spoilers. If you have knowledge on a chapter that has not been officially released yet, do NOT post it in this thread. Ignoring this public note will result in a mod action. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
562 Posts
Gear Two! | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8794 Posts
On March 25 2022 22:49 Zambrah wrote: Hes a Monkey though, hes literally the relative of their MOST DANGEROUS MAN as well as THEIR MOST HALLOWED HERO, there is literally no reason for the government to not have been on Luffy immediately given his lineage and the fact he got his hands on the most dangerous fruit around. The World Government is staggeringly incompetent to have let Luffy get to where he is given who he is and what he had. Staggeringly incompetent. Let alone the vile asininity of completing butchering established fruit categories by having a Zoan with no transformations and an always-on-body-altering effect. God help me, thinking about this chapter just makes me completely flabbergasted and amazed at the decision making. Oda, I thought you were better than this. well yeah i admit the incompetent part. still think with the exception of enies lobby, despite luffy's lineage, theres pretty much zero reason for the gorosei to give a fuck. i mean what are the chances that the son and grandson of the monkey family ends up being the guy to have the fruit youve wanted for almost a millenium and eventually fucks you over? if luffy had any other fruit the gorosei would probably be like "whatever. let akainu and the navy handle him". also i dont really follow where the inconsistency lies with the mythical zoan revelation. his fruit is a human human fruit, which is why he looks like a human most of the time. the fruit supposedly gives him rubber properties, which is why luffy is a rubber man. whether his gears count as zoan transformations or they are simply luffy's creative application of the rubber property, well have to see but clearly his real zoan transformation is supposed to be whatever gear 5 is. sengoku and onimaru are also both mythical zoans that ate hito hito no mis and remain their normal self until they transform actually i dont think anything about the power of luffys fruit has changed besides the name. luffys brief show of his awakening ability was to turn the ground into rubber and deflect kaidos blast. it has been theorised since the very beginning of awakening abilities that luffy might be able to turn his surroundings into rubber. there are further theories that luffy could use elasticity to turn people into giants, but we havent gotten that far yet. so far i dont think much about luffys ability has changed. it may just be that renaming gomu gomu no mi was pivotal to making it obvious that luffy is following joy boys footsteps | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8794 Posts
marco doesnt have to turn into his phoenix form to use his fire or healing abilities. he just has them even in human form | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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lestye
United States4186 Posts
Don't mind the goofiness, but really disappointed that luffy has a god fruit. id have much preferred he was just really clever on using rubber | ||
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Byo
Canada209 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8794 Posts
On March 26 2022 01:09 Zambrah wrote: Being permanently anything is not the trait of a Zoan fruit, Sengoku isnt always gold, and Kaido doesnt always have scales, there are no Zoans that have ever been shown to grant a permanent body altering effect that has always been the domain of the Paramecia no other zoan has a permanent body change because the "special ability" that they are given doesnt allow for it. most mythical zoans are shown to have abilities provided by the fruit besides the actual transformation designated by the fruit. marco has permanent access to his fire/regenerative abilities without transformation. kaido has permanent access to his abilities without transformation (most notably flame clouds). yamato has permanent access to her abilities without transformation. theres a reason why oda specifically had the gorosei mention that the nika fruit allows the user to have rubber properties. thats the ability the fruit grants the user besides the ability to transform into the sun god nika. whether or not sengoku has abilities granted by his fruit that he just hasnt showcased we dont know. if he did, i dont see why he wouldnt be able to use it in his human form like the rest | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
Luffy isnt transforming, he isnt manifesting a part of his transformation, he is constantly at all times made of rubber, he hasnt been shown to be able to turn this off, Marco isnt constantly on blue-fire because he has a fruit thats entire shtick is transformation, the Zoan class is about transforming into something else, nothing has a permanent effect and "is rubber" is not something that is outside the bounds of turning on and off. Luffy's rubber isnt a transformation and it just does not fit the Zoan category whatsoever | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8794 Posts
they don't have to transform to benefit from their special ability. normal zoan users have a physical transformation and thats it. mythical zoans have shown to be able to do special shit other than their transformations. kaido can create flame clouds to lift onigashima without transforming anything. yamato can do some ice shit without transforming anything. marco can create his healing flames without having to transform anything. if oda says luffys special ability is to just be a rubber man, who can argue with that. thats apparently what the sun god nika fruit grants you; permanent rubber properties. if luffy still has a complete zoan transformation then having a permanent side ability doesnt make him any less zoan. what you say is inconsistent im saying is simply new. i dont find that a user of a mythical zoan fruit benefiting from a particular ability without transformation to be inconsistent. its been shown to happen with other abilities if i were you id be asking whether his gears 2-4 are supposed to be his hybrid form or not, but we dont have the answer to that question yet | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
No other Mythical Zoan has had a permanent body alteration and no ability to actually transform, and the ability to transform is an innate instinct to all Zoan users, so if Luffy could transform he'd immediately know how, but he doesnt, he has spent the vast majority of this manga exclusively exhibiting Paramecia characteristics and not once has shown a characteristic of a Zoan, "but special ability" doesnt mean anything when the established logic within One Piece has always dictated that Zoans transform, their special abilities come from their ability to transform, they have never shown a Zoan who is in a state of permanent alteration, no Zoan who is unable to transform, :Luffy just does not fit any of the characteristics that have been staples of what makes a Zoan fruit user a Zoan fruit user. Introducing some new mechanic to Zoans in order to M Night Shyamalan up a twist is the laziest bullshit Ive seen in One Piece, its fuckin' Bleach tier garbage, fruit types have rules, Logia become elementals, Zoans transform into animals, Paramecia do weird shit, Luffy exhibiting classic Paramecia class abilities for the entirety of this twenty year long manga only to whoops Mythical Zoan cause twwwwwiiiiiiist is awful and inconsistent. Its not about what IS in One Piece, Oda could make Zoro a hand to hand Okama but it wouldn't make any sense for Zoros character. He could reveal that Choppers fruit is actually a Paramecia and it'd make about as much sense as Luffy having a Zoan, precisely none. One Piece has established rules, if you deviate from them youre going to confuse people because you dont set up rules to ignore them whenever you feel like. It cheapens the consistency and world and the rest of the rules. Nothing means anything when anything can be anything by the author's whim. Its total garbage writing. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8794 Posts
On March 26 2022 02:18 Zambrah wrote: His gears cant be hybrid forms, he isnt transforming, hes pumping his rubber blood cells extra hard in Gear 2 and inflating his body in Gear 3, theyre not Zoan transformations (fuck maybe they are that makes zero sense which is where One Piece wants to go now!) No other Mythical Zoan has had a permanent body alteration and no ability to actually transform, and the ability to transform is an innate instinct to all Zoan users, so if Luffy could transform he'd immediately know how, but he doesnt, he has spent the vast majority of this manga exclusively exhibiting Paramecia characteristics and not once has shown a characteristic of a Zoan, "but special ability" doesnt mean anything when the established logic within One Piece has always dictated that Zoans transform, their special abilities come from their ability to transform, they have never shown a Zoan who is in a state of permanent alteration, no Zoan who is unable to transform, :Luffy just does not fit any of the characteristics that have been staples of what makes a Zoan fruit user a Zoan fruit user. Introducing some new mechanic to Zoans in order to M Night Shyamalan up a twist is the laziest bullshit Ive seen in One Piece, its fuckin' Bleach tier garbage, fruit types have rules, Logia become elementals, Zoans transform into animals, Paramecia do weird shit, Luffy exhibiting classic Paramecia class abilities for the entirety of this twenty year long manga only to whoops Mythical Zoan cause twwwwwiiiiiiist is awful and inconsistent. Its not about what IS in One Piece, Oda could make Zoro a hand to hand Okama but it wouldn't make any sense for Zoros character. He could reveal that Choppers fruit is actually a Paramecia and it'd make about as much sense as Luffy having a Zoan, precisely none. One Piece has established rules, if you deviate from them youre going to confuse people because you dont set up rules to ignore them whenever you feel like. It cheapens the consistency and world and the rest of the rules. Nothing means anything when anything can be anything by the author's whim. Its total garbage writing. dont know how many more times i have to say it but zoans dont have to transform to use their special ability. ive already listed cases where thats already been proved. they just have it. zoans also dont exclusively turn into animals. thats what the hito hito no mi series is. humans that can turn into characters that are based on supernatural humans. the sun god nika is obviously a rubber man. what other abilities oda will grant sun god nika besides what luffy has already shown we dont know, but him being a rubber man is for sure. luffy being a rubber man is therefore the side effect of him having eaten a fruit of a fucking rubber man. its really not that difficult. like i said previously as well, its entirely possible that luffys progression until now has just been his creative use of his rubber property as if it were a paramecia, and the first real use of his actual zoan ability is being shown over 1000 chapters after the series commenced. why the condition for luffys transformation was set at such a high bar compared to everyone else, who the fuck knows. clearly luffy didnt even know he could transform into whatever a sun god nika is and assumed his rubber property was from a rubber fruit. turns out its because the sun god nika is a rubber man, amongst probably other things. | ||
Yhamm
France7248 Posts
everything else about the fruit, I disliked: that it's a zoan, that it was joyboy's, that the WG hasnt done much to stop luffy before considering his potential power, ... to me it really ruins what luffy had done in the past. It's not far from "games of throne ruined by season 8" it seems really unnecessary to me to give him THIS devil fruit the pages with Hiyori was really strong though | ||
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Elentos
55566 Posts
Also, the Gorosei mention this chapter that Zoan fruits have a will of their own. I would then take Luffy's Awakening as the fruit acknowledging him. And this means in turn that everything Luffy has accomplished was still because of Luffy and not because of the fruit (more like in spite of the fruit denying him its power). | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On March 26 2022 02:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: dont know how many more times i have to say it but zoans dont have to transform to use their special ability. ive already listed cases where thats already been proved. they just have it. zoans also dont exclusively turn into animals. thats what the hito hito no mi series is. humans that can turn into characters that are based on supernatural humans. the sun god nika is obviously a rubber man. what other abilities oda will grant sun god nika besides what luffy has already shown we dont know, but him being a rubber man is for sure. luffy being a rubber man is therefore the side effect of him having eaten a fruit of a fucking rubber man. its really not that difficult. like i said previously as well, its entirely possible that luffys progression until now has just been his creative use of his rubber property as if it were a paramecia, and the first real use of his actual zoan ability is being shown over 1000 chapters after the series commenced. why the condition for luffys transformation was set at such a high bar compared to everyone else, who the fuck knows. clearly luffy didnt even know he could transform into whatever a sun god nika is and assumed his rubber property was from a rubber fruit. turns out its because the sun god nika is a rubber man, amongst probably other things. You dont seem to get it, no other Zoan exhibits any of the properties that Luffy's fruit does. No other Zoan fruit doesnt give an innate ability to transform, no other Zoan fruit has ever awakened and had its user retain cognitive faculties, no other Zoan fruit gives its user a permanent body alteration. "But special abilities" isnt a catch all panacea when you have three categories of fruit that all have fairly well drawn boundaries. Luffy's fruit has absolutely nothing in common with any of the typical Zoan traits, its even extremely atypical by Mythical Zoan standards. Its inconsistent shit writing for the sake of a "gotcha!" You cant hand wave away 20 years of devil fruit mechanics just 'cause. Also, human beings are animals, lol. | ||
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lestye
United States4186 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On March 26 2022 03:08 lestye wrote: Eh Zambrah, I can agree with your overall conclusion but I think your argument regarding strict rules is kinda silly in this franchise. I don't think an argument about violating rules of one piece's taxonomy and classification is going to be a persuasive one. Whats the point of them then? These sorts of systems are key to being able to create set up and pay off, the reason that this reveal is soooo bad is because we, as viewers, have had so much information up until this point about what makes a Zoan fruit a Zoan fruit and suddenly all of that information is invalidated for absolutely no good reason. How can we trust anything in One Piece means anything if the rules are going to be subverted for conveniences sake? Like, Im very aware of suspension of disbelief, but just because a world doesnt play by our world's rules doesnt mean that it should have no consistent rules whatsoever. It creates a Bleach situation of "shits just happening I have no idea what happens next and I dont care because how the fuck am I supposed to know what any of this is" | ||
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lestye
United States4186 Posts
Also it's a dramatic thing. Like, we are given a rule that you can only have one devil fruit, and then Blackbeard comes along and BREAKS our minds by having 2 fruits. Having a rule but then coming out with an exception can be great. Like we had rules in Starcraft like "burrowed units can't attack" and "burrowed units can't move/cast spells" but that ends being an insane (literal)gamechanger. Same with the introduction of awakened devil fruits and the idea of special Paramecia. So yeah, I don't think I mind that this fruit has a ton of different rules that we're used to, especially given there's a ton we don't know as readers, and people who inhabit this world don't even know. I think if you hate this, there are way better arguments like this makes the WG look so dumb, and this undermines Luffy and his "humble" beginnings. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On March 26 2022 03:29 lestye wrote: I think those rules are for worldbuilding sake, as these are rules as how the people see them. There are a ton of unknowns in One Piece as there is science. Also it's a dramatic thing. Like, we are given a rule that you can only have one devil fruit, and then Blackbeard comes along and BREAKS our minds by having 2 fruits. Having a rule but then coming out with an exception can be great. Like we had rules in Starcraft like "burrowed units can't attack" and "burrowed units can't move/cast spells" but that ends being an insane (literal)gamechanger. Same with the introduction of awakened devil fruits and the idea of special Paramecia. So yeah, I don't think I mind that this fruit has a ton of different rules that we're used to, especially given there's a ton we don't know as readers, and people who inhabit this world don't even know. I think if you hate this, there are way better arguments like this makes the WG look so dumb, and this undermines Luffy and his "humble" beginnings. Blackbeard is different because you have no comparisons for Blackbeard, the mystery of him having multiple fruits can be mysterious because we actually have no real information as to why or how it happens, but we have TONS of information on Devil Fruits, we've seen a half a dozen mythical Zoans, and scores more normal Zoans, we have lots to compare and contrast to establish consistencies and inconsistencies with regards to what a Zoan is capable of. When Blackbeard's deal is revealed it won't contradict other established reasons why one may have two devil fruits because we havent had any rules about that situation, only that it shouldnt be possible. The lack of information keeps it viable via mystery. If youre going to have an exception to something with a lot of established consistencies then breaking every single consistency all at the same time so badly that its unrecognizable as the thing its supposed to be then you're doing something wrong. Awakened devil fruits have been around since Impel Down though, thats an example of setting something up early and letting it pay off much later, except in this case what we know about what happens when Zoans awaken they become significantly stronger but lose all cognitive function, and giving Luffy is a Zoan who just awakened its another inconsistency on the pile.Its setup and then nonsensical "pay off." Breaking rules has to be done carefully, it has to be done with purpose, and it has to fit. If Luffy had spent the manga turning Rubber Mode on and off then maybe it'd make some sense as a transformation and he could technically be seen to fit into the Zoan catergory, but hes been pure rubber the entire time, no instinct for transformation, awakens counter to previously awakened Zoan awakenings, its just not set up whatsoever for Luffy to be a Zoan, and no set up means bad pay off. Its just fundamental story telling, that Oda fucks this up baffles me. I also dont like the Lineage Destiny Chosen One shtick but at least thats genre convention, subverting your own worlds rules after spending 20 years generally creating a cohesive world where you set up and pay off things and it matters... its just really, really confusing given I held One Piece in such high esteem for setting things up and paying them off later. | ||
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