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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
While I had a feeling Robb Stark would die, because the Red lady has been pretty reliable with her presumed abilities, I did not think it would happen in this way. I was watching this with my girlfriend, and I felt a little uneasy when she asked Lord Bolton why he wasn't drinking. The Hound hinted at it as well - "You're so close, and that's why you're so worried"... They started playing the Rains of Castamere and my girlfriend was like, "That's a weird song to play at a wedding" and then we laughed. Then BAMN! Holy shits were flying everywhere, she was covering her eyes. I was a bit shocked. Then it was over. And we kinda just sat there as well sitting in silence.
It was a well executed scene. I did not see it coming at all to be honest, although I felt a sense of uneasiness after last weeks episode. I didn't particularly care for Robb Stark, mostly because he gradually got himself in these situations, but I still cheer that house on because as a whole they are good people. It was sad to see so much tragedy come to them again, especially after first season. Robb did kind of screw himself though - he made a promise and did not keep it to pursue his own selfish gains in a time where he was looked upon to unit an entire region. The same can be said for his mother. While both their decisions are understandable and very human, I kind of expected more from them. So it's understandable that their decisions were their undoing. It is difficult to say I would not have made the same decisions. It gives you a greater appreciation for the game.
Not sure what to make of the Jon Snow bit. I really thought he cared for the red head girl. Maybe he left her behind because he didn't want the wildlings to hurt her so he pretended to abandon her. I would like to think he genuinely cared for her. This was also a very interesting juxtaposition to Robb Stark's actions. Jon seems to have a higher sense of duty and honor - perhaps a better reflection of his father due to less influence of Robb's Mother. Whether intentional or not, it's good food for thought.
I'm cheering on Jon still. I must admit, I don't care much for Dany though she seems quite popular. I think the realm would be best under Tyrion's rule as he plays the game so well, but still has a big heart. I enjoy Tywin as a character because he knows what he is and he doesn't pretend to be anything else. A very powerful charismatic character as well. I can't help but feel like little Brann is going to play a huge role in what is to come though. They don't just give a kid a bad ass power like that for no reason. It will be interesting to see how his story comes along - I still don't trust that boy they're travelling with though.
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Seriously of all the ways Robs faith could have ended... are you shitting me?
1. Rob asks his mother for advice. Last time he ignored it, he lost Greyjoy. She tells him to go ahead to visit that hole in the ground.
2. His freaken wife just told him, she would name his son Eddard!
3. Arya is 30 minutes away from reuniting with her mother and brother.
BOOM! Everything ends the shittiest way possible! Will this shit series continue till only Lannister scum are left? I'm sooooooooo frustrated about the ending of last episode! With no Rob what is to become of the Starks??? 
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On June 04 2013 18:20 dehdar wrote:Seriously of all the ways Robs faith could have ended... are you shitting me? 1. Rob asks his mother for advice. Last time he ignored it, he lost Greyjoy. She tells him to go ahead to visit that hole in the ground. 2. His freaken wife just told him, she would name his son Eddard! 3. Arya is 30 minutes away from reuniting with her mother and brother. BOOM! Everything ends the shittiest way possible! Will this shit series continue till only Lannister scum are left? I'm sooooooooo frustrated about the ending of last episode! With no Rob what is to become of the Starks???
You have not been paying attention.
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On June 04 2013 18:21 h41fgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 18:20 dehdar wrote:Seriously of all the ways Robs faith could have ended... are you shitting me? 1. Rob asks his mother for advice. Last time he ignored it, he lost Greyjoy. She tells him to go ahead to visit that hole in the ground. 2. His freaken wife just told him, she would name his son Eddard! 3. Arya is 30 minutes away from reuniting with her mother and brother. BOOM! Everything ends the shittiest way possible! Will this shit series continue till only Lannister scum are left? I'm sooooooooo frustrated about the ending of last episode! With no Rob what is to become of the Starks??? You have not been paying attention.
What do you mean? All I know is that good people die. If they kill off Arya and John Snow... no wait, he is a freaken stark... John Stark, then I'm done with this series. Who am I kidding I'll still be watching
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On June 04 2013 18:04 Emix_Squall wrote:
Womb stabbing was really disturbing IMO. Quick questions to all you americans out there:
What's HBO's position as a TV Channel and how much can they be influenced?
What's the general feeling in the US about strong violence (I think we can call this scene strong violence right?) in television?
Don't get me wrong I totally love the show and really enjoyed this episode but I must say, even being used to seeing violent stuff, the womb stabbing moment was particularly horrible. I'm just affraid HBO might have gone a bit too far with this episode, and I sincerely hope they don't get censored or pressured to make more consensual content for the rest of the show.
What makes GoT great, probably as a book (haven't read it), but here, mainly as a show, is that' they're not affraid to tackle our preconceived ideas of a good storyline. Hope it stays that way :D
EDIT: and wonderfull directing work deciding not to put any music during the credits, this his so crucial in digesting this WTF moment ...
Its a channel you legally have to pay for to watch, so its not supposed to be highly available and because you have to pay specifically for it they can get away with the violence and gore, and sex. Personally i think all the gore is what helps make this show the way it is, it wouldn't be as exciting if a scene like the red wedding that is supposed to be so personal between the lannisters trying to corrupt Robs banner men and kill him in a way that will show the realm they are supreme. Or they could have just done the lame version and after the rain of casimire came on Catlyn says something like "Oh we have made a terrible mistake" and you just hear shouting and knifing from an outer view of the castle.....
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Well a tv show cant show much of the thought process behind jon snows decision. Theres just no one he could have talked to about his plans to run. So that scene is bound to be a bit out of the blue.
But logically..the nights watch doesnt allow women so if he plans to return to them and doesnt want to be a deserter or a wildling, he has to leave ygritte.
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On June 04 2013 18:04 Emix_Squall wrote:
Womb stabbing was really disturbing IMO. Quick questions to all you americans out there:
What's HBO's position as a TV Channel and how much can they be influenced?
What's the general feeling in the US about strong violence (I think we can call this scene strong violence right?) in television?
Don't get me wrong I totally love the show and really enjoyed this episode but I must say, even being used to seeing violent stuff, the womb stabbing moment was particularly horrible. I'm just affraid HBO might have gone a bit too far with this episode, and I sincerely hope they don't get censored or pressured to make more consensual content for the rest of the show.
What makes GoT great, probably as a book (haven't read it), but here, mainly as a show, is that' they're not affraid to tackle our preconceived ideas of a good storyline. Hope it stays that way :D
EDIT: and wonderfull directing work deciding not to put any music during the credits, this his so crucial in digesting this WTF moment ...
In an interview George RR Martin said HBO was the only tv channel that could make this series exactly because they have the money and can show violence, nudity and not get censored like other cable televisions in USA.
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On June 04 2013 18:20 dehdar wrote:Seriously of all the ways Robs faith could have ended... are you shitting me? 1. Rob asks his mother for advice. Last time he ignored it, he lost Greyjoy. She tells him to go ahead to visit that hole in the ground. 2. His freaken wife just told him, she would name his son Eddard! 3. Arya is 30 minutes away from reuniting with her mother and brother. BOOM! Everything ends the shittiest way possible! Will this shit series continue till only Lannister scum are left? I'm sooooooooo frustrated about the ending of last episode! With no Rob what is to become of the Starks???
Debatable whether it's a shit series. While I can understand that some people get joy out of fiction in different ways, it's not as if this is out of the realm of possibilities. First examine the timeline:
1) Robb was named King of the North
2) Robb needed the bridge - in exchange he agreed to marry Frey's daughter
3) Robb captures Jamie
4) Robb meets nurse lady (future "wife")
5) Robb's Mom frees Jamie (who at this point has murdered one of his bannerman's sons - the future head of his house - ie: future)
6) Robb marries nurse lady
Now think at this point, you've basically seen the head family pursue their own selfish goals over the good of the very people fighting for them. Their men start to naturally lose faith...
7) In an act of revenge and selfishness, the Kastark bannerman kills some Lannister boys out of frustration.
8) Said bannerman gets executed by Robb for being selfish - thus Robb protecting Justice
9) Robb goes back to Frey, agrees to marry another one of his bannerman to Frey in exchange for an army (this is MORE than he asked the first time)
Up to these events, Robb has really not made great decisions. His sense of duty for his country men is actually quite poor. Both him and his mother have put their own desires and family first and foremost, and this is reflected in the consequences of their actions. Robb holds true to his word and marries that girl, he may have gotten an army. Cat doesn't free Jamie, and Robb doesn't lose half his army.
Frey has no reason to trust Robb at this point. Not to mention Frey wants power. The reason why he wants Robb to marry his daughter is so she can be Queen and thus he has power. Robb underestimated Frey greatly, and essentially spit into his face by asking for an army. It's not a surprise that this happened in hindsight.
I'm not saying this is an ideal ending, and the Stark's as a whole are my favourite house. Looking at the world the characters live in and the actions they have taken to this point though, and it's completely justifiable what happened to them. You may not like that kind of story, and that's fair, but to call it a "shit series" is an entirely different beast.
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On June 04 2013 18:23 dehdar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 18:21 h41fgod wrote:On June 04 2013 18:20 dehdar wrote:Seriously of all the ways Robs faith could have ended... are you shitting me? 1. Rob asks his mother for advice. Last time he ignored it, he lost Greyjoy. She tells him to go ahead to visit that hole in the ground. 2. His freaken wife just told him, she would name his son Eddard! 3. Arya is 30 minutes away from reuniting with her mother and brother. BOOM! Everything ends the shittiest way possible! Will this shit series continue till only Lannister scum are left? I'm sooooooooo frustrated about the ending of last episode! With no Rob what is to become of the Starks??? You have not been paying attention. What do you mean? All I know is that good people die. If they kill off Arya and John Snow... no wait, he is a freaken stark... John Stark, then I'm done with this series. Who am I kidding I'll still be watching
He was quoting the series. "If you think this has an happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." Which describes the whole story quite well.
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On June 04 2013 18:17 Satire wrote: I can't help but feel like little Brann is going to play a huge role in what is to come though. They don't just give a kid a bad ass power like that for no reason. It will be interesting to see how his story comes along - I still don't trust that boy they're travelling with though.
Bran uses mind control on a dragon, gg no re O_O
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On June 04 2013 18:04 Emix_Squall wrote:
Womb stabbing was really disturbing IMO. Quick questions to all you americans out there:
What's HBO's position as a TV Channel and how much can they be influenced?
What's the general feeling in the US about strong violence (I think we can call this scene strong violence right?) in television?
Don't get me wrong I totally love the show and really enjoyed this episode but I must say, even being used to seeing violent stuff, the womb stabbing moment was particularly horrible. I'm just affraid HBO might have gone a bit too far with this episode, and I sincerely hope they don't get censored or pressured to make more consensual content for the rest of the show.
What makes GoT great, probably as a book (haven't read it), but here, mainly as a show, is that' they're not affraid to tackle our preconceived ideas of a good storyline. Hope it stays that way :D
EDIT: and wonderfull directing work deciding not to put any music during the credits, this his so crucial in digesting this WTF moment ...
HBO is subscription based, they have almost every right as to what they broadcast (well obviously they will try to satisfy their customers of course).
Sure you have some people that will say its a devil show but who cares. HBO isnt influenced by them since they are not their customers anyway. However, if the reaction are too negatve from their very audience they would not hesitate to put some restraints on the directors... or worse cancel the show if its not profitable due to an audience giving up.
But I dont think its the case. This is just like season 1. Everybody will be back in season 4 like they did in season 2. And back then it came with no warning ! Now audiences knew this could happen. Killing a hero doesn't make a well-acted well-written series suddenly become bad an unapreciated. Unless of course you kill the only hero or interesting character but in GoT there is many other heroes and we will forget about Robb.
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So, who do you guys think will be the new Robb? I believe that George R.R. Martin must make a new "fan favourite" soon. Someone the viewers can cheer for and hope that he or she avenges Ned, Robb and Catelyn?
I don't understand how the story will continue at all. My theory was that Robb would die but I didn't think it would happen this early, more like at the end of the series. At the moment we have Daenarys and Stannis with the "possibility" to avenge the Starks and claim the throne but I don't feel like Daenarys will get to King's Landing in a while and Stannis is just kinda lame.
The story has to pull out some tricks to keep watchers entertained. Even though Martin keeps it unpredictable (and totally awesome) I doubt some will continue watching if there's no good guy left.
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On June 04 2013 18:31 Satire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 18:20 dehdar wrote:Seriously of all the ways Robs faith could have ended... are you shitting me? 1. Rob asks his mother for advice. Last time he ignored it, he lost Greyjoy. She tells him to go ahead to visit that hole in the ground. 2. His freaken wife just told him, she would name his son Eddard! 3. Arya is 30 minutes away from reuniting with her mother and brother. BOOM! Everything ends the shittiest way possible! Will this shit series continue till only Lannister scum are left? I'm sooooooooo frustrated about the ending of last episode! With no Rob what is to become of the Starks??? Debatable whether it's a shit series. While I can understand that some people get joy out of fiction in different ways, it's not as if this is out of the realm of possibilities. First examine the timeline: 1) Robb was named King of the North 2) Robb needed the bridge - in exchange he agreed to marry Frey's daughter 3) Robb captures Jamie 4) Robb meets nurse lady (future "wife") 5) Robb's Mom frees Jamie (who at this point has murdered one of his bannerman's sons - the future head of his house - ie: future) 6) Robb marries nurse lady Now think at this point, you've basically seen the head family pursue their own selfish goals over the good of the very people fighting for them. Their men start to naturally lose faith... 7) In an act of revenge and selfishness, the Kastark bannerman kills some Lannister boys out of frustration. 8) Said bannerman gets executed by Robb for being selfish - thus Robb protecting Justice 9) Robb goes back to Frey, agrees to marry another one of his bannerman to Frey in exchange for an army (this is MORE than he asked the first time) Up to these events, Robb has really not made great decisions. His sense of duty for his country men is actually quite poor. Both him and his mother have put their own desires and family first and foremost, and this is reflected in the consequences of their actions. Robb holds true to his word and marries that girl, he may have gotten an army. Cat doesn't free Jamie, and Robb doesn't lose half his army. Frey has no reason to trust Robb at this point. Not to mention Frey wants power. The reason why he wants Robb to marry his daughter is so she can be Queen and thus he has power. Robb underestimated Frey greatly, and essentially spit into his face by asking for an army. It's not a surprise that this happened in hindsight. I'm not saying this is an ideal ending, and the Stark's as a whole are my favourite house. Looking at the world the characters live in and the actions they have taken to this point though, and it's completely justifiable what happened to them. You may not like that kind of story, and that's fair, but to call it a "shit series" is an entirely different beast.
What devastates me is that Robb never had any intention of becoming a king, but what choice did he have when his father was butchered, but to march for King's Landing? His undoing was his trust in his most loyal servants. Greyjoy whom he treated as his own brother betrayed him, and as result Winterfall was lost. His own mother went behind his back and betrayed him by freeing the Lannister boy, which put him in the desperate situation that became his undoing, as you so greatly pointed out.
I'm sad to see the Stark house dissolved, hence my poor choice of words to describe the series. And I don't see how they can reunite and rise again, since all they have left is each other... except, they are divided
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On June 04 2013 18:57 NVRLand wrote:
So, who do you guys think will be the new Robb? I believe that George R.R. Martin must make a new "fan favourite" soon. Someone the viewers can cheer for and hope that he or she avenges Ned, Robb and Catelyn?
I don't understand how the story will continue at all. My theory was that Robb would die but I didn't think it would happen this early, more like at the end of the series. At the moment we have Daenarys and Stannis with the "possibility" to avenge the Starks and claim the throne but I don't feel like Daenarys will get to King's Landing in a while and Stannis is just kinda lame.
The story has to pull out some tricks to keep watchers entertained. Even though Martin keeps it unpredictable (and totally awesome) I doubt some will continue watching if there's no good guy left.
Jon's not righteous enough?
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On June 03 2013 22:37 disciple wrote:
Im glad to see TLs reaction to the red wedding. Reading all the hateful tweets towards HBO and Martin made me really disappointed with the mainstream audience, which as always completely rejects the unexpected. The reason people love the books so much is mainly because they are not the always predictable crap everyone is used to. I think HBO deserve a lot of respect for producing this material into a TV show - its quite the rebelion against a century of predictable movie writing and shitty screenplays.
Fry's quote from Futurama sums it up nicely: "Clever things make people feel stupid, and unexpected things make them feel scared. TV audiences don't want anything original. They wanna see the same thing they've seen a thousand times before."
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Can't wait for Season 4now....
When I read that this Episode would include a red Wedding, I thought Geoffreys wedding with the tyrell girl was meant and that he would die. Never thought that Robb and Cait will die, altough I dont mind too much, cause these two were annoying ne for quite some time.
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On June 04 2013 18:40 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 18:17 Satire wrote: I can't help but feel like little Brann is going to play a huge role in what is to come though. They don't just give a kid a bad ass power like that for no reason. It will be interesting to see how his story comes along - I still don't trust that boy they're travelling with though. Bran uses mind control on a dragon, gg no re O_O
Holy crap that might actually be exactly what happens when Dany reaches Westeros... There's Brann's huge role, the way he mind controlled Hodor and all. Although I have to say that the firewall to Hodor's mind probably wasn't all that great. And even if it were, I think everyone would guess the password. Huehue
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On June 04 2013 18:31 Satire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 18:20 dehdar wrote:Seriously of all the ways Robs faith could have ended... are you shitting me? 1. Rob asks his mother for advice. Last time he ignored it, he lost Greyjoy. She tells him to go ahead to visit that hole in the ground. 2. His freaken wife just told him, she would name his son Eddard! 3. Arya is 30 minutes away from reuniting with her mother and brother. BOOM! Everything ends the shittiest way possible! Will this shit series continue till only Lannister scum are left? I'm sooooooooo frustrated about the ending of last episode! With no Rob what is to become of the Starks??? Debatable whether it's a shit series. While I can understand that some people get joy out of fiction in different ways, it's not as if this is out of the realm of possibilities. First examine the timeline: 1) Robb was named King of the North 2) Robb needed the bridge - in exchange he agreed to marry Frey's daughter 3) Robb captures Jamie 4) Robb meets nurse lady (future "wife") 5) Robb's Mom frees Jamie (who at this point has murdered one of his bannerman's sons - the future head of his house - ie: future) 6) Robb marries nurse lady Now think at this point, you've basically seen the head family pursue their own selfish goals over the good of the very people fighting for them. Their men start to naturally lose faith... 7) In an act of revenge and selfishness, the Kastark bannerman kills some Lannister boys out of frustration. 8) Said bannerman gets executed by Robb for being selfish - thus Robb protecting Justice 9) Robb goes back to Frey, agrees to marry another one of his bannerman to Frey in exchange for an army (this is MORE than he asked the first time) Up to these events, Robb has really not made great decisions. His sense of duty for his country men is actually quite poor. Both him and his mother have put their own desires and family first and foremost, and this is reflected in the consequences of their actions. Robb holds true to his word and marries that girl, he may have gotten an army. Cat doesn't free Jamie, and Robb doesn't lose half his army. Frey has no reason to trust Robb at this point. Not to mention Frey wants power. The reason why he wants Robb to marry his daughter is so she can be Queen and thus he has power. Robb underestimated Frey greatly, and essentially spit into his face by asking for an army. It's not a surprise that this happened in hindsight. I'm not saying this is an ideal ending, and the Stark's as a whole are my favourite house. Looking at the world the characters live in and the actions they have taken to this point though, and it's completely justifiable what happened to them. You may not like that kind of story, and that's fair, but to call it a "shit series" is an entirely different beast.
Yeah if you look at it that way, you are absolutely right. As a leader, he made all the wrong decisions and he ultimatively payed for it that way.
But again, this is a huge twist. The Lannisters are now more or less uncontested in Westeros. I wonder how they want to keep up the tension.
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On June 04 2013 18:04 Emix_Squall wrote:
Womb stabbing was really disturbing IMO. Quick questions to all you americans out there:
What's HBO's position as a TV Channel and how much can they be influenced?
What's the general feeling in the US about strong violence (I think we can call this scene strong violence right?) in television?
Don't get me wrong I totally love the show and really enjoyed this episode but I must say, even being used to seeing violent stuff, the womb stabbing moment was particularly horrible. I'm just affraid HBO might have gone a bit too far with this episode, and I sincerely hope they don't get censored or pressured to make more consensual content for the rest of the show.
What makes GoT great, probably as a book (haven't read it), but here, mainly as a show, is that' they're not affraid to tackle our preconceived ideas of a good storyline. Hope it stays that way :D
EDIT: and wonderfull directing work deciding not to put any music during the credits, this his so crucial in digesting this WTF moment ...
My mind made it seem worse than it actually was. My first response to the scene was quite like yours. But when I rewatch the scene (pretty hard to do), you notice you dont even get to see the belly getting stabbed in full view. You see the man come up with the dagger and stabbing her, but the view of where he stabs is obstructed by the table. Your mind makes it more real because you know what they did, but as you see, they censored it in some way.
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EPT
