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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 14 2013 07:12 Stenstyren wrote:
The big problem with the show is that there are just so many different characters in so many different places and they just keep adding more and more for every season.
Jon Snow is on some sort of mystical quest for something (backstabbing the wildlings?)
Brann is doing fuck knows what.
Theon has been tortured for several episodes now, we get it.
Arya (one of the top 3 characters) has been put on the sidelines in favor of some mystical bandit/cult thingy.
Robb has had some story development but he is quite the boring character. Don't feel anything for him.
Jaimie actually has a pretty interesting storyline atm, always excited when they switch to him!
All the people in da big city are playing some nice political games, focusing the show just on them would probably work though, we are just not seeing enough details.
Daenerys is exciting to watch, her development has been quite good.
The red witch is doing her (very mysterious) things.
Basically, we have nine different big places where the story is unfolding and each and every one of these places has a multitude of characters that are supposed to be fleshed out. It's just a bit too much, I find myself not caring for most of these characters since I see them interact so little.
Several of the storylines are very exciting and I would be very sad to see them cut but when we get 1-2 scenes per episode it's just too little to keep the interest going. There is a reason why most shows only have 4-5 active characters at the same time.
I don't know how to solve this though, because I assume that everyone is going to get their place somewhere down the road. Perhaps they could focus each episode more on one specific character, such that they could have a characters story arc play out over one episode?
Putting myself in the shoes of someone who hasn't read the books I completely understand you.
In this sense, I think maybe the series ended up aimed towards book readers, as we can glue all the scenes together to make understand what we already know, but in live action.
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Poor Theon, talk about a cock-block.
IMO, best "Hodor" of the series last night. He's really getting into his element.
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On May 14 2013 06:22 Scorch wrote:
Are Jaime and Brienne going to be a couple? They clearly care for each other in some way and go to great lenghts to save each other all the time. Then again, Brienne is too virtuous and honorable to get with "scum" like Jaime, and it's previously been said that Cersei is the only woman Jaime has ever had feelings for.
Can you honestly still call Jaime scum after how his character has developed this season and seeing what his father's like? My opinion has changed since the bath tub monologue and what he's done for Brienne.
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On May 14 2013 07:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
Poor Theon, talk about a cock-block.
IMO, best "Hodor" of the series last night. He's really getting into his element.
I'm really glad the writers are giving him a compelling script for once, I'm so glad to see his character begin to shine.
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Great episode. The Rains of Castamere at the end was amazing, felt such a thrill. And finally some tits and ass f** yea!
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On May 14 2013 08:00 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 07:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
Poor Theon, talk about a cock-block.
IMO, best "Hodor" of the series last night. He's really getting into his element. I'm really glad the writers are giving him a compelling script for once, I'm so glad to see his character begin to shine.
I laughed so hard when he said it. It's like, you know its coming, and he just obliges. lololol
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On May 14 2013 04:33 Yoav wrote:
Okay, so some debate about storytelling going on.
What others have said about high fantasy is true.
Also, this show is only sort-of an ensemble show. It pretends pretty hard, but the first two seasons are very clear about who their protagonists are:
Season 1: The Tragedy of Eddard Stark
Season 2: The Rise and Fall of Tyrion Lannister
Part of the "the plot is not moving forward" complaint comes from the fact that by Episode 7 of the other seasons, hell, by Episode 1 of Season 1, it was clear who the season protagonist was. For this season, in the running right now:
Robb Stark: Stark Men Never Learn, part II
+Robb seems bent on self-destruction.
+He has had more major decisions than anyone but Dany
+It's obvious how his plot could wrap up in the near future (but within 3 episodes? maybe if they are very quick paced)
+He has a particularly interesting cadre of followers in his wife, Lord Bolton, Lord Frey, Lord Karstark, and his mother.
+Jaime plot incidental to his right now, and Jaime a useful dramatic foil to him.
-Kinda boring as a person
-Haven't we already seen self-destructive idealists destroying themselves from gods-sent great positions?
Dany: Abraham Lincoln, Dragon Rider
+After a lot of whinging last season, finally living up to the awesomeness suggested by the end of season 1.
+Lots of important decisions
-Peripheral in screen-time
-Plot unlikely to wrap up in any definitive way soon. Based on all build-up, she is going to have to invade Westeros at some point. That will probably be her season. If it's the last one, she might actually win.
Jon Snow: Do I Know Anything?
+Some interesting things have happened
+Easy to imagine dramatic wrap up
+/- We really have no good sense of his motives, unless they really are as simple as "double agent against Wildlings"
-Little screen time
-Even with dramatic wrap up, probably would have to be set-up for next season.
So really the problem is that most plots are moving forward very slowly, and the two that have really gone anywhere are Robb's (which feels like Ned-redux with less uncertainty) and Dany's (which isn't approaching a real conclusion).
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say then that it is now transitioning into an ensemble show? The Tyrells are major figures. Stannis is still a major figure. Geoffrey is setting himself in opposition to his grandfather, so the Lannisters are starting to split into multiple factions. Littlefinger is building into a major player and Lord Bolton seems to be making moves as well. The war is spreading and becoming more chaotic, less good vs evil.
People are trying to judge GoT now as if each season needs a full narrative arc, when the story doesn't necessarily lend itself to that structure. Also, I totally disagree that Season 2 can simply be summed up as Tyrion's rise and fall. Tyrion was a major plot arc but it's arguable that Season 2 was more about the fall of House Baratheon and the vengeance of House Stark than Tyrion.
Which is why analyses like these tend to be rather futile. Plot progression is quite simply learning new details and events about the main narrative of the series, which is the Game of Thrones. Who is going to sit the Iron Throne when the dust settles? And there's been plenty of new information and events in Season 3 that affect who takes the throne. Anyone who argues otherwise has not been paying attention.
To me, some of the biggest plot events have been the further cementing of an alliance between House Tyrell and Lannister. The loss of Jaime's hand and his possible death. The beheading of Karstark, which is a HUGE event. Just because there wasn't some huge bang-up battle doesn't mean it wasn't a massively important event. Robb Stark lost half his damned army with one stroke of his sword. That to me is way crazier than some random on-screen battle. The wildlings are confirmed crossing the wall. Daenerys gaining an army. How can one possibly say the plot hasn't moved forward?
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To me the protagonists are the people that everyone pretty much can agree on to like. Davos, Tyrion, Selmy. IT just happens to be that those three people don't have any real power.
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Well said SamsungStar.
Im loving this season.
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On May 14 2013 07:30 Chronos. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 07:21 biology]major wrote:
the only reason i can see why so much screen time for theon is if he makes an epic comeback. Seeing him go to the absolute worst any human can go, tortured and humiliated with 0 hope... then to somehow escape and rise again to greatness. All this screentime would be worth it if that happened, but if theon is randomly killed off then all I can say is GRRM is a sick fuck I don't mind it all that much tbh. I mean they may be overdoing a a little bit, but honestly there probably hasn't been more than like 15 minutes total of Theon's torture subplot (really rough estimate). Also, the subplot is interesting to me anyway. They showed us how bad of a person Theon could be, and now he's being brutally tortured and it can bring on conflicting emotions for the audience. He's almost certainly not going to just die off after all this (at least not for a really good reason), and it's also a good way to introduce this mysterious new character. By showing him torture Theon so mercilessly, anytime we see him from now on we'll know what he's done and what he's capable of.
Not to mention exemplify just how well the Boltons can manipulate and mask their true emotions as needed. My head nearly exploded when it turned out the kid who rescued him was really just squeezing out information by playing both the good cop and the bad cop, and just when Theon looked like he made the first step to safety, NOPE back on the crucifix.
Which makes sense in retrospect seeing as our first impression of Roose Bolton was this kind soul to Jaime, when his house is particularly famous for flaying and torturing people, or so says the show wiki. Bolton's probably playing it up for his own purposes as well.
And the fact that Bolton's sigil is exactly the device that Theon has been on the last seven episodes is why I keep referring to our mysterious interrogator as the bastard. I've never read the books, but I'd put money on it if I could.
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This story telling style (and somewhat this thread) have really corrupted some of my viewing pleasure. 
Like when I saw Robb and his wife make lovey-dovey sex for 5 min, all I could think about was: "Oh, so I guess one of them is going to die soon now. Why would they spend so much time on their already established relationship otherwise."
What I am trying to say is that, regardless of what is actually going to happen to them, the 'feeling' of the scene was totally ruined for me because of these thoughts.
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so many nice asses in this ep...
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On May 14 2013 06:43 Hitch-22 wrote:weak stomach?
Yep  I prefer not watching people get tortured and mutilated if I can help it, haha.
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I wonder how Sansa feels about this whole thing. Does she understand that she basically got her Dad killed and ruined the entire Seven Kingdoms? She can't play an idiot forever, I'm currently in the middle of this episode and I just had to stop to post this. I only just realized that it's basically her fault - She lies about the incident w/ Joffrey leads to distrust and malevolence b/w Starks and Lannisters, leads to Baratheon siding with Lannisters leads to Joffrey/Ned throne conflict. If she had just come out about how Joffrey was a fucking lunatic idiot to begin with maybe Robert Baratheon sides with Ned more often since he sees his family is honourable etc.
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Ned was investigating the death of Jon Arryn after being tipped off by his wife that the Lannisters had something to do with it. That led to him discovering that Joffrey wasn't the true heir which has nothing to do with Sansa lying. There was already tension between the two houses and you forgot about Bran being pushed out a window along with the followup assassination attempt with the Lannister owned dagger.
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On May 14 2013 12:23 Arghmyliver wrote:
I wonder how Sansa feels about this whole thing. Does she understand that she basically got her Dad killed and ruined the entire Seven Kingdoms? She can't play an idiot forever, I'm currently in the middle of this episode and I just had to stop to post this. I only just realized that it's basically her fault - She lies about the incident w/ Joffrey leads to distrust and malevolence b/w Starks and Lannisters, leads to Baratheon siding with Lannisters leads to Joffrey/Ned throne conflict. If she had just come out about how Joffrey was a fucking lunatic idiot to begin with maybe Robert Baratheon sides with Ned more often since he sees his family is honourable etc.
The trigger factor (Cat capturing Tyrion) would have remained the same, meaning Robert still would have died, and the same conflict for the Throne begun.
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On May 14 2013 12:19 StyLeD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 06:43 Hitch-22 wrote:On May 14 2013 06:38 StyLeD wrote:
I just skip the torture scenes. weak stomach? Yep I prefer not watching people get tortured and mutilated if I can help it, haha.
but...but.. what about the tits?!
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On May 14 2013 11:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
To me the protagonists are the people that everyone pretty much can agree on to like. Davos, Tyrion, Selmy. IT just happens to be that those three people don't have any real power.
Tyrion I get it.
But one is in jail and the other one is just a bodyguard who came back from the shadows a few episodes back. I dont see how key they are compared to say Arya or Daenarys. Davos might actually be fucked for all we know...
did I miss something about those two guys?
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On May 14 2013 13:00 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 11:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
To me the protagonists are the people that everyone pretty much can agree on to like. Davos, Tyrion, Selmy. IT just happens to be that those three people don't have any real power. Tyrion I get it. But one is in jail and the other one is just a bodyguard who came back from the shadows a few episodes back. I dont see how key they are compared to say Arya or Daenarys. Davos might actually be fucked for all we know... did I miss something about those two guys?
I like Jon too. I can get behind him. I think the point of the story is to throw you off so you end up liking the guy who gets killed next. I dunno.
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On May 14 2013 12:23 Arghmyliver wrote:
I wonder how Sansa feels about this whole thing. Does she understand that she basically got her Dad killed and ruined the entire Seven Kingdoms? She can't play an idiot forever, I'm currently in the middle of this episode and I just had to stop to post this. I only just realized that it's basically her fault - She lies about the incident w/ Joffrey leads to distrust and malevolence b/w Starks and Lannisters, leads to Baratheon siding with Lannisters leads to Joffrey/Ned throne conflict. If she had just come out about how Joffrey was a fucking lunatic idiot to begin with maybe Robert Baratheon sides with Ned more often since he sees his family is honourable etc.
I don't even know what to say. I really think putting her to blame for everything that occurred after one minor plot decision is just silly. The chain of events that occurred after the "incident" you're referring comes down to the decisions of MULTIPLE people to the point that the proximal cause of Stark's beheading cannot be attributed to the actions of Sansa.
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EPT
