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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Episode had some great elements, the inner tension of Jon Snow's character being palpable, the heroic rescue of Lady Brienne after Jaime had that colossal 'FUCK IT' moment realising that he ultimately was responsible for her ransom not being accepted, the hound capturing Arya and Theon proving once again that he is a complete waste of air. I was on tenterhooks the whole episode. And I am just drinking in every second of Danaerys' story, she is the most compelling character.
I also get the feeling that some major shit is going to be going down in the last episodes of this season.
On May 14 2013 16:52 foxmeep wrote:
Jaime losing his hand didn't advance his plot in the slightest. He is still a prisoner, he is still being transported to King's Landing.
Of course it did. The whole point was to ruin the sense of invulnerability he was surrounded by. It was a shocking moment when it happened, because you always expected, at least according to standard story convention, that he would somehow emerge unscathed. Losing his hand, especially his dominant hand, changes the character completely. 'Disarming' him has somehow, it seems, started a change of character in him which is based around accepting his limitations.
They never really show anything about Robb's army and their advancement, so losing half of nothing is pretty insignificant from a TV show perspective. Plot wise his position has not changed much. He didn't have power to attack before, he still doesn't now.
The fact that you complain about not seeing Robb's army leads me to think that you should probably be watching Spartacus...it's all about subtlety and implication, and keeping us in the dark and just informed by the words of the generals and Robb is really sophisticated and enjoyable.
Daenerys gained an army, but we already knew she had dragons so power was never an issue. She is still in the exact same position plot wise as she was at the start of the season. In the East fapping around doing nothing.
Well obviously George RR Martin is taking us on a journey with Danaerys. She can't just wait for 10 years and then appear with some dragons, and we are following her on her journey. In case you didn't realise, she is not in the same plot position - she made a pretty hardcore advancement in her story, the whole 'breaker of chains' thing being manifest in her demand that they release 200 fucking thousand slaves.
Bran has been traveling for fucking forever. Some randoms turn up, add no value and now they all just travel still going no where.
Bran is my most disliked character but still travelling is a big part of history...and it's clear that they are building up to some shit going down.
If you haven't noticed the trend, despite some events changing their circumstances, everyone is still on the exact same course as they were at the start of the season.
Despite the fact that this has been shown to be wrong, that doesn't really matter. Each episode has great developments and memorable occurrences, as well as characters being fleshed out. Biggest one being Jaime. Theon's prolonged torture, which I feel will end in his death and no reprieve, has been specifically memorable because of how absurdly negative his outlook is- something I've never seen before in a tv show.
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Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her.
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United States43964 Posts
On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her.
He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed.
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On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed.
That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids.
And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself.
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I wish they could just get over with Theon. At this point we can fill at least one episode with torturing/mocking Theon. It just feels they are draging stuff out way too much. At this point, whatever happens to him - i don't care anymore. Otherwise great episode tho :p
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On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed.
I should use a different example. He killed that Lannister captive for a stupid reason and if I remember correctly it was said that he also killed few guys who tried to have some fun with Cersei just because he was jealous. He was a selfish dick in previous seasons and now he's being chivalrous. I think it's a bit unnatural.
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On May 14 2013 23:44 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. I should use a different example. He killed that Lannister captive for a stupid reason and if I remember correctly it was said that he also killed few guys who tried to have some fun with Cersei just because he was jealous. He was a selfish dick in previous seasons and now he's being chivalrous. I think it's a bit unnatural.
Your view of morality is pretty black and white. It's not unnatural at all. To suddenly start running around saving people he has nothing to do with would be unnatural. But you know Lannisters always pay their debts, and Brienne clearly did enough to make Jaime feel responsibility for her. And just because he is ruthless when it suits him or jealous with his sister doesn't mean he is automatically a 'bad guy' who can't do anything right. He's not being chivalrous. Perhaps you are confused because Brienne is a girl, but he is just paying back someone who he grew to appreciate and who he probably felt indebted to.
Plus as I previously said, him losing his hand has maybe forced him to turn a corner in his life.
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On May 14 2013 23:44 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. I should use a different example. He killed that Lannister captive for a stupid reason and if I remember correctly it was said that he also killed few guys who tried to have some fun with Cersei just because he was jealous. He was a selfish dick in previous seasons and now he's being chivalrous. I think it's a bit unnatural.
Escape is a pretty good reason.
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On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself.
It is all an act (him being a dick). If you remember back in season 1 when he talks to his father in the tent (the scene where Tywin skins a deer), he admits it bothers him that people call him a Kingslayer and he acts as he acts as a defensive mechanism.
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yeah Jaime is such a dick that he killed his king to prevent him from burning the city to the ground with everyone in it.
never mind that he said it like 3 times.
What a dick.
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On May 14 2013 00:46 Faceroll52 wrote:
I enjoy this thread but some people are just dicks arent they. Seriously you guys that are "predicting" but in reality have read the books and spoil..
Case in point a couple of pages back one guy "predicted" that Theon would get a la Varys and sure enough he did.
Exactly. i think i will stop lurking this thread.
On May 08 2013 04:34 Wolfstan wrote:
I think Theon will survive this torture without his cock and fingers like onion knight and Varus. He will go from a character I hate but may end up being a positive influence on the stability of the realm. He has experienced the good(Ned) and bad(Dad, crazy dude) of rulership thus will have a vested interest in backing a cause that he believes in. (This posted before last episode)
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On May 15 2013 00:20 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
yeah Jaime is such a dick that he killed his king to prevent him from burning the city to the ground with everyone in it.
never mind that he said it like 3 times.
What a dick.
Because he did something good (that also served his own interests) it doesnt mean he wasnt a dick overall. He was a dick and is developing into something better, thats obviously the character development that the writers aim for here.
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On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself.
Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children.
Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over).
Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did.
Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people.
His goals are never all that different to any of the 'protagonist' characters, but his achievement of those goals is sometimes marred in 'whatever is necessary' situations. He's shown from the enemy protagonist viewpoint so he's set up as a villain, but few of his acts are outright villainous. I'll give you 'trying to murder Bran' as rather monstrous, but he also had no other realistic options at that point.
We know from the first episode that he thinks rather little of consequences (jumping off Casterly Rock, being scolded for acting like a fool). He's always been happy to put himself at risk (battles), but this seems different because we're only learning that he considers Brienne worth protecting.
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On May 15 2013 00:37 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself. Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children. Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over). Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did. Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people.
Come on, this try hard defending of Jame is getting a little funny. :D
So now Osha killing Brans captors is the same as Jamie killing a fellow captive. Ok.
The same thing would have been if Osha killed Bran to escape.
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On May 15 2013 00:43 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 00:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself. Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children. Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over). Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did. Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people. Come on, this try hard defending of Jame is getting a little funny. :D So now Osha killing Brans captors is the same as Jamie killing a fellow captive. Ok. The same thing would have been if Osha killed Bran to escape.
It's not tryharding. He's intentionally painted in a certain light to make him look like the villain, and the scenes that focus on him are designed to invert that viewpoint.
Killing the other Lannister made very little sense to me, so I can't say much about that. Didn't seem to fit the character in the slightest, since he could have just told the guy to pretend or whatever. I was referring to how Jaime is reviled in the show for killing Rickard Karstark's son(s), specifically.
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On May 15 2013 00:46 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 00:43 Redox wrote:On May 15 2013 00:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself. Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children. Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over). Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did. Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people. Come on, this try hard defending of Jame is getting a little funny. :D So now Osha killing Brans captors is the same as Jamie killing a fellow captive. Ok. The same thing would have been if Osha killed Bran to escape. It's not tryharding. He's intentionally painted in a certain light to make him look like the villain, and the scenes that focus on him are designed to invert that viewpoint. Killing the other Lannister made very little sense to me, so I can't say much about that. Didn't seem to fit the character in the slightest, since he could have just told the guy to pretend or whatever. I was referring to how Jaime is reviled in the show for killing Rickard Karstark's son(s), specifically.
Never heard that anyone called him a villain because of that except Karstark himself.
Thats what I mean, you guys cherry pick things Jaime has done that actually nooone regards as bad anyway to proof that he never did bad things. Doesnt work that way.
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On May 15 2013 00:43 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 00:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself. Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children. Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over). Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did. Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people. Come on, this try hard defending of Jame is getting a little funny. :D So now Osha killing Brans captors is the same as Jamie killing a fellow captive. Ok. The same thing would have been if Osha killed Bran to escape.
Come on, this try hard attempt to explain things should be seen Manichaeanly is getting a little funny :D
So now Jaime killing the mad king in a desperate attempt to save the people of king's landing is a bad thing. Ok.
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On a more "serious" note, you can choose to see things in a manichaean way that's your right, but plz don't force it on people who understand that everything isn't black or white in life.
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On May 15 2013 00:52 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 00:43 Redox wrote:On May 15 2013 00:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself. Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children. Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over). Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did. Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people. Come on, this try hard defending of Jame is getting a little funny. :D So now Osha killing Brans captors is the same as Jamie killing a fellow captive. Ok. The same thing would have been if Osha killed Bran to escape. Come on, this try hard attempt to explain things should be seen Manichaeanly is getting a little funny :D So now Jaime killing the mad king in a desperate attempt to save the people of king's landing is a bad thing. Ok. ... On a more "serious" note, you can choose to see things in a manichaean way that's your right, but plz don't force it on people who understand that everything isn't black or white in life.
Pretty much, If I were in Jaime's position I would have done the same thing. There is no other choice really, and there is no time to think it through. That doesn't make him evil/bad.
edit: I meant the pushing bran part
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On May 15 2013 00:57 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 00:52 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2013 00:43 Redox wrote:On May 15 2013 00:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself. Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children. Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over). Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did. Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people. Come on, this try hard defending of Jame is getting a little funny. :D So now Osha killing Brans captors is the same as Jamie killing a fellow captive. Ok. The same thing would have been if Osha killed Bran to escape. Come on, this try hard attempt to explain things should be seen Manichaeanly is getting a little funny :D So now Jaime killing the mad king in a desperate attempt to save the people of king's landing is a bad thing. Ok. ... On a more "serious" note, you can choose to see things in a manichaean way that's your right, but plz don't force it on people who understand that everything isn't black or white in life. Pretty much, If I were in Jaime's position I would have done the same thing. There is no other choice really, and there is no time to think it through. That doesn't make him evil/bad. edit: I meant the pushing bran part
Thats pretty sad actually. Though I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just say that for the sake of the argument.
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