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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 15 2013 00:57 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 00:52 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2013 00:43 Redox wrote:On May 15 2013 00:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 14 2013 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 14 2013 23:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2013 23:16 Sent. wrote:
Unlike few others Jamie's plot is advancing but I don't like it's direction. It seems unnatural to me that a guy who tried to kill Bran comes back to rescue Brienne and even attacks a bear for her. He didn't have anything against Bran, he just didn't want his sister and his three children to be executed by Robert. Jaime was set up as a dick in season 1 through the Stark perspective but we're learning that there is a set of rules which he has always followed. That's quite the speculation there. For all we know he might have only wanted to continue fucking his sister undisturbed. There was not the slightest hint so far that he cares about his kids. And Jaime was not set up to be a dick, he was a dick. He probably would say so himself. Jaime tried to kill Bran, to defend his sister, his love, and his children. Jaime attacked Ned Stark to defend his family (the same thing the Starks go to war over). Jaime killed people to escape prison, much as Osha did. Jaime broke his oath, to save 500,000 people. Come on, this try hard defending of Jame is getting a little funny. :D So now Osha killing Brans captors is the same as Jamie killing a fellow captive. Ok. The same thing would have been if Osha killed Bran to escape. Come on, this try hard attempt to explain things should be seen Manichaeanly is getting a little funny :D So now Jaime killing the mad king in a desperate attempt to save the people of king's landing is a bad thing. Ok. ... On a more "serious" note, you can choose to see things in a manichaean way that's your right, but plz don't force it on people who understand that everything isn't black or white in life. Pretty much, If I were in Jaime's position I would have done the same thing. There is no other choice really, and there is no time to think it through. That doesn't make him evil/bad. edit: I meant the pushing bran part
That's my point, time pressure, mental state, situation, who is involved ... are just so many implications. Things aren't just black or white, people make decisions based on the info they have and the situation they are in. Taken out of context anything can be bad or wrong. (edit: not justifying him pushing Bran though ... just speaking in general)
Take killing, if I just say "killing" everyone thinks of it as bad ... now if I associate the simple name "Hitler" to it suddenly "killing Hitler" becomes a much more acceptable and not so bad at all thought.
We should just stop trying to put people in a box of good, evil, loyal, honourable or stuff ... they're just humans.
One of the most evil character in the show could be considered to be Arya for example. She strives for vengeance and seems more than determined to make it happen. It's not her behaviour that would make her evil IMO, it's what she wants.
Compare her to Jaime: she sure killed noone (except a wannabe rapist kid) so far but what are they both looking for. Jaime wants rest and to come back to a quiet life, further on ... he's not even hostile to anyone, he just doesn't care. On the other side Arya has been so nice & sweet so far and yet she wants half the Lannister family and the kingsguards dead ...
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Jaime seemed to take pleasure in pushing Bran though.
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On May 15 2013 01:13 Thor.Rush wrote:
Jaime seemed to take pleasure in pushing Bran though.
I wouldn't say pleasure, I'd say it was the face of someone who knows when he HAS to do unpleasant thing, and does it.
Like an accepted frustration that he has no control over the situation; and eventhough he knows what he's about to do is bad he also knows it's the best way to deal with the current situation (from his POV).
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Some people don't seem to understand that a story like this doesn't really have a protagonist, it has simply become way too big and complex to assing that role to anyone.
The closest characters you can find to a protagonist would be Jon and Dany, because their stories are mostly isolated from most other main characters and without them those plots would lose a lot of relevance.
But neither of them has any relation right know to whats going on in KL or in Westeros in general, where the vast majority of the plot lines are happening.
Also, to claim that Tyrion was the protagonist of season II is very silly. He had a role in all the scheming in KL and played a very important part in Blackwater, but the war of the five kings was about much more than just Blackwater. Tyrion was simply given a lot of screen time because he's cool and audiences like him.
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On May 15 2013 01:14 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 01:13 Thor.Rush wrote:
Jaime seemed to take pleasure in pushing Bran though. I wouldn't say pleasure, I'd say it was the face of someone who knows when he HAS to do unpleasant thing, and does it. Like an accepted frustration that he has no control over the situation; and eventhough he knows what he's about to do is bad he also knows it's the best way to deal with the current situation (from his POV).
I disagree. It was the face of someone who didn't care at all and just did what he had to do. He didn't derive pleasure, nor anything else from that imo.
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I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil.
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On May 15 2013 00:30 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 00:46 Faceroll52 wrote:
I enjoy this thread but some people are just dicks arent they. Seriously you guys that are "predicting" but in reality have read the books and spoil..
Case in point a couple of pages back one guy "predicted" that Theon would get a la Varys and sure enough he did. Exactly. i think i will stop lurking this thread. Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 04:34 Wolfstan wrote:
I think Theon will survive this torture without his cock and fingers like onion knight and Varus. He will go from a character I hate but may end up being a positive influence on the stability of the realm. He has experienced the good(Ned) and bad(Dad, crazy dude) of rulership thus will have a vested interest in backing a cause that he believes in. (This posted before last episode)
Read up to book4 and yeah, while lurking this thread, I have seen people "predict" some spoilers. These guys just want the attention.
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On May 15 2013 02:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil.
Thinking he was definitively a villain and evil was the mistake on your part.
Fortunately, there's no lack of other evil characters to amuse us all.
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On May 15 2013 02:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil.
This story overall is WAY too legit to ever really be called cliche, dumb or annoying. George RR Martin has put in enough work to avoid cliché to be allowed a few cliches.
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shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^
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On May 15 2013 02:47 jinorazi wrote:
shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^
My vote is for book-readers. They're the most evil.
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I enjoyed the Joffrey and Tywin scene the most. Ohh the power struggles...
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On May 15 2013 02:47 jinorazi wrote:
shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^ The mountain, littlefinger, or that new maester seem to my pick.
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On May 15 2013 02:47 jinorazi wrote:
shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^
Besides Joffrey of course... I think the Red Lady is the most evil.. i mean manipulating Stannis and killing Renly, who seemed to be one of the only 'good' guys. She uses is her religion and lord of lights as her motivation but i dno it just seems dark and scary. Tywin is a pretty nefarious dude, but i wouldn't really call him evil because he seems to be just wanting his family to remain the most powerful house. Even if what he does is pretty damn mean. There are a few minor characters who are down right foul, but i think a better debate would be most evil main character.
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On May 15 2013 02:47 jinorazi wrote:
shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^
The guy torturing Theon seems pretty evil to me. Littlefinger and Joffrey are up there as well, though I wonder if Joffrey is truly evil or just a cruel kid with too much power in his hands.
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On May 15 2013 02:52 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 02:47 jinorazi wrote:
shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^ The mountain, littlefinger, or that new maester seem to my pick.
Littlefinger's not evil, he's just immoral; the difference is he is neutral and only does what benefits him where The Mountain, for instance, holds his brothers face to the fire fo touching a wooden knight he hadn't touched for years.
Neutrality (doing whatever benefits himself the most) isn't really 'evil'.
Also who is the new maester?
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On May 15 2013 03:07 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 02:52 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 15 2013 02:47 jinorazi wrote:
shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^ The mountain, littlefinger, or that new maester seem to my pick. Littlefinger's not evil, he's just immoral; the difference is he is neutral and only does what benefits him where The Mountain, for instance, holds his brothers face to the fire fo touching a wooden knight he hadn't touched for years. Neutrality (doing whatever benefits himself the most) isn't really 'evil'. Also who is the new maester?
Qyburn, the maester who was at Harrenhal who patched up Jaime. He definitely isn't evil, he just follows a different code of ethics than your standard maester.
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On May 15 2013 03:05 kuresuti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 02:47 jinorazi wrote:
shall we have a debate on most evil character? ^_^ The guy torturing Theon seems pretty evil to me. Littlefinger and Joffrey are up there as well, though I wonder if Joffrey is truly evil or just a cruel kid with too much power in his hands.
good point about Joffrey i wonder how much of it is just that, i can see a kid being pretty cruel (lord of the flies), but seriously filling that chick with bolts for fun he has to be a sociopath >_<.. Guy torturing Theon seems to enjoy it waaay too much. He's definitely one evil bloke. Though his char is sort of a nobody.
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On May 15 2013 02:13 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 02:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil. Thinking he was definitively a villain and evil was the mistake on your part. Fortunately, there's no lack of other evil characters to amuse us all.
Someone throwing a kid thourgh a window, even to protect himself and the one he loves, is evil. In a show and in reality. Thing is, he was much better than other evil characters, because he was also light hearted and utterly cool, while Joffrey is a maniac and people like littlefinger don't have any of his charisma.
Oh well, I hope they don't fuck up the "good" Jamie.
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I also think the two most evil characters come down to Joffrey and the torture guy. The torture guy is probably worse since his actions have been so detailed. Joffrey is still just like a bully with a lot of power. Torture guy isn't just brutalizing Theon, he's completely destroying Theon's will.
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EPT
