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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same...
Actually it is similar to the execution of Night watch deserter from S1E1 by Ned Stark. In both cases you could say the executed man should not have been executed and in both cases Stark obsession with honor and rules is the cause.
Ned by his actions probably brought doom on Westeros (by not believing the man), and Robb lost half his army.
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On May 02 2013 16:23 SergioCQH wrote:
Cavalry depend upon weakening enemy infantry morale. The Unsullied have unshakeable morale, and can withstand any cavalry charge.
Depend, no. Benefit, yes. Getting charged by a dude on a horse is still getting charged by a dude on a horse no matter how unfazed you are.
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Zurich15355 Posts
On May 02 2013 16:27 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same... Actually it is similar to the execution of Night watch deserter from S1E1 by Ned Stark. In both cases you could say the executed man should not have been executed and in both cases Stark obsession with honor and rules is the cause. Ned by his actions probably brought doom on Westeros (by not believing the man), and Robb lost half his army.
This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. The Crow executed by Ned in episode one was not executed because he was believed to be lying about the white walkers. He was executed because he deserted from the Night's Watch. It doesn't matter what his reason for deserting was. It was the right thing to do by any standard of Westeros, even the guy himself admits to it (Something like: "I know I'm a deserter ... "). Really not an example of Stark rigidity messing things up, anyone in Westeros would have done the same.
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On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same...
Speaking of music, when Thoros resurrected Beric the Stannis music played. I suppose it must be the lord of light music, rather than the Stannis music.
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On May 02 2013 16:31 foxmeep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 16:23 SergioCQH wrote:
Cavalry depend upon weakening enemy infantry morale. The Unsullied have unshakeable morale, and can withstand any cavalry charge. Depend, no. Benefit, yes. Getting charged by a dude on a horse is still getting charged by a dude on a horse no matter how unfazed you are.
A cavalry charge can't really do much of anything to a densely packed formation of spearmen unless they can scare them.
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On May 02 2013 17:00 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 16:27 -Archangel- wrote:On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same... Actually it is similar to the execution of Night watch deserter from S1E1 by Ned Stark. In both cases you could say the executed man should not have been executed and in both cases Stark obsession with honor and rules is the cause. Ned by his actions probably brought doom on Westeros (by not believing the man), and Robb lost half his army. This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. The Crow executed by Ned in episode one was not executed because he was believed to be lying about the white walkers. He was executed because he deserted from the Night's Watch. It doesn't matter what his reason for deserting was. It was the right thing to do by any standard of Westeros, even the guy himself admits to it (Something like: "I know I'm a deserter ... "). Really not an example of Stark rigidity messing things up, anyone in Westeros would have done the same.
This. The deserter could have easily told the Lord Commander, instead he ran back to and away from the wall.
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Zurich15355 Posts
By the way, the OP has been updated with background information on the show supplied by HBO which can be considered spoiler free.
Still, if you argue in this thread based on the viewer guide or the lore videos please specifically reference where your information comes from so that it is clear for everyone that you are not spoiling book content.
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I really didn't understand robs scene were he goes "ahha! ill just use the frays, which i betrayed." This scene made no sense, he even explained in the same sentence why the frays won't fight for him, at the same time as saying them fighting for him was his new master-plan, am i missing something here?
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On May 02 2013 21:10 UdderChaos wrote:
I really didn't understand robs scene were he goes "ahha! ill just use the frays, which i betrayed." This scene made no sense, he even explained in the same sentence why the frays won't fight for him, at the same time as saying them fighting for him was his new master-plan, am i missing something here?
I guess he just didnt tell us yet how he wants to win them over.
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Maybe he's going to arrange a marriage between Walder Frey and Catelyn Stark as a "compensation". Would be hilarious and I don't like Cate, she deserves some shit.
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On May 02 2013 17:00 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 16:27 -Archangel- wrote:On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same... Actually it is similar to the execution of Night watch deserter from S1E1 by Ned Stark. In both cases you could say the executed man should not have been executed and in both cases Stark obsession with honor and rules is the cause. Ned by his actions probably brought doom on Westeros (by not believing the man), and Robb lost half his army. This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. The Crow executed by Ned in episode one was not executed because he was believed to be lying about the white walkers. He was executed because he deserted from the Night's Watch. It doesn't matter what his reason for deserting was. It was the right thing to do by any standard of Westeros, even the guy himself admits to it (Something like: "I know I'm a deserter ... "). Really not an example of Stark rigidity messing things up, anyone in Westeros would have done the same.
Yes and that makes it even more similar. In both cases it was the right thing to do by the laws and honor. But in both cases you can easily argue if it was the "right" thing to do. Ned could have taken the deserter more seriously, went to Lord Commander with him and gave him to Lord Commander to dispense justice while also trying to find out what is really going on. He didn't.
Robb could have jailed Karstark and told his men to fight or else.
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By what right does the wolf judge the lion!!!! <3 Jaime
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On May 02 2013 21:23 Don_Julio wrote:
Maybe he's going to arrange a marriage between Walder Frey and Catelyn Stark as a "compensation". Would be hilarious and I don't like Cate, she deserves some shit.
Yeah, she is quite dumb. Hot blood but slow mind.
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On May 02 2013 21:33 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 17:00 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 16:27 -Archangel- wrote:On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same... Actually it is similar to the execution of Night watch deserter from S1E1 by Ned Stark. In both cases you could say the executed man should not have been executed and in both cases Stark obsession with honor and rules is the cause. Ned by his actions probably brought doom on Westeros (by not believing the man), and Robb lost half his army. This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. The Crow executed by Ned in episode one was not executed because he was believed to be lying about the white walkers. He was executed because he deserted from the Night's Watch. It doesn't matter what his reason for deserting was. It was the right thing to do by any standard of Westeros, even the guy himself admits to it (Something like: "I know I'm a deserter ... "). Really not an example of Stark rigidity messing things up, anyone in Westeros would have done the same. Yes and that makes it even more similar. In both cases it was the right thing to do by the laws and honor. But in both cases you can easily argue if it was the "right" thing to do. Ned could have taken the deserter more seriously, went to Lord Commander with him and gave him to Lord Commander to dispense justice while also trying to find out what is really going on. He didn't. Robb could have jailed Karstark and told his men to fight or else.
No you are still wrong. In the second case that might have been an option. Not in the first. And he told Benjen about it, thats the same as telling Mormont. Also Ned seemed to take this report more serious than anyone else, probably more serious than Mormont would have.
And Mormont found out about the Walkers later by his own experience.
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Excuse me! Rage of Thrones was taken off the front page... I DEMAND THIS TO BE RECTIFIED IMMEDIATELY.
On May 02 2013 16:23 SergioCQH wrote:
Cavalry depend upon weakening enemy infantry morale. The Unsullied have unshakeable morale, and can withstand any cavalry charge.
It also depends upon trampling infantry... Something the Unsullied can't shake.
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On May 02 2013 21:35 Aristodemus wrote:
By what right does the wolf judge the lion!!!! <3 Jaime
I thought that bath speech was awesome.
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On May 02 2013 21:33 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 17:00 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 16:27 -Archangel- wrote:On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same... Actually it is similar to the execution of Night watch deserter from S1E1 by Ned Stark. In both cases you could say the executed man should not have been executed and in both cases Stark obsession with honor and rules is the cause. Ned by his actions probably brought doom on Westeros (by not believing the man), and Robb lost half his army. This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. The Crow executed by Ned in episode one was not executed because he was believed to be lying about the white walkers. He was executed because he deserted from the Night's Watch. It doesn't matter what his reason for deserting was. It was the right thing to do by any standard of Westeros, even the guy himself admits to it (Something like: "I know I'm a deserter ... "). Really not an example of Stark rigidity messing things up, anyone in Westeros would have done the same. Yes and that makes it even more similar. In both cases it was the right thing to do by the laws and honor. But in both cases you can easily argue if it was the "right" thing to do. Ned could have taken the deserter more seriously, went to Lord Commander with him and gave him to Lord Commander to dispense justice while also trying to find out what is really going on. He didn't. Robb could have jailed Karstark and told his men to fight or else.
Off-topic. You desert, you are executed! End of story.
These are medieval times, there's no "yes but maybe he could possibly have ...".
It's do or die!
On May 02 2013 22:13 MrMatt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:35 Aristodemus wrote:
By what right does the wolf judge the lion!!!! <3 Jaime I thought that bath speech was awesome.
In terms of acting it's the best performance of the season so far IMO ...
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On May 02 2013 21:33 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 17:00 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 16:27 -Archangel- wrote:On May 02 2013 16:00 Kishin2 wrote:
Man, I just realized how similar (and different) Robb's execution of Karstark is with Theon's execution of Ser Rodrik. They both did it to prevent losing the respect of their men The music and weather are the same... Actually it is similar to the execution of Night watch deserter from S1E1 by Ned Stark. In both cases you could say the executed man should not have been executed and in both cases Stark obsession with honor and rules is the cause. Ned by his actions probably brought doom on Westeros (by not believing the man), and Robb lost half his army. This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. The Crow executed by Ned in episode one was not executed because he was believed to be lying about the white walkers. He was executed because he deserted from the Night's Watch. It doesn't matter what his reason for deserting was. It was the right thing to do by any standard of Westeros, even the guy himself admits to it (Something like: "I know I'm a deserter ... "). Really not an example of Stark rigidity messing things up, anyone in Westeros would have done the same. Yes and that makes it even more similar. In both cases it was the right thing to do by the laws and honor. But in both cases you can easily argue if it was the "right" thing to do. Ned could have taken the deserter more seriously, went to Lord Commander with him and gave him to Lord Commander to dispense justice while also trying to find out what is really going on. He didn't. Robb could have jailed Karstark and told his men to fight or else.
There was nothing morally gray about the deserter's execution. He was aware of the law, there were no question whether he had broken it or not and his punishment was in line with the law. The only way you could bring a "right or wrong"-discussion into it is by discussing death penalty in a broader sense, and such a discussion is not really relevant in the universe they are existing in.
The way the executions(by Ned, Robb and Theon) are interesting is how it contrasts Robbs and Theons relationship to Ned and Winterfell. Robb is his true son, with a rightful claim to Winterfell and executed with a just ruling. He, as Ned, executed with a clean swipe, but under rough circumstances. Clear weather vs wet weather. Theon also had rain, but his relationship to Ned or any father figure, is a mess as well as his ruling.
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You are misunderstanding me. I did say he could have brought him to Lord Commander for punishment (and it would have been the same) and used the opportunity to find out how real is this threat. No, but he ignored it and then later went south to continue ignoring it. He could have investigated further and told the King there is a real threat beyond the Wall. Of course the whole story would have went differently then but it still does not make Ned choice better. In my mind it makes Robb executing Karstark similar.
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EPT
