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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 15 2012 23:07 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. Theon is clearly not evil, is more of a tortured man.
I would say conflicted rather than tortured... He spends a lot of screentime complaining about being "torn away" from his family as a child, but this didn't seem to bother him when he was with Robb. In my opinion, he complains now b/c he needs to rationalize the evil things he is doing, but he still knows what he is doing is wrong and unjustified.
I think he was in fact happy with the Starks. Then he returned home and saw how shitty Pyke was. By conquering Winterfell, he is in part trying to return to the place where he was happy, while still living up to his father's expectations. And in the process he is doing very evil things for selfish reasons.
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On May 15 2012 23:19 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 23:07 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. Theon is clearly not evil, is more of a tortured man. I would say conflicted rather than tortured... He spends a lot of screentime complaining about being "torn away" from his family as a child, but this didn't seem to bother him when he was with Robb. In my opinion, he complains now b/c he needs to rationalize the evil things he is doing, but he still knows what he is doing is wrong and unjustified. I think he was in fact happy with the Starks. Then he returned home and saw how shitty Pyke was. By conquering Winterfell, he is in part trying to return to the place where he was happy, while still living up to his father's expectations. And in the process he is doing very evil things for selfish reasons.
Yes conflicted fits better, not a native speaker here to be fair 
I mostly agree with your explanation of his behaviour but I would paint Theon slightly less conscious than you did. I mean yes he probably knows what a treason to the Starks this is but I don't think he's been doing this with any malicious intent toward them. He's only concern right now is to regain some kind of credibility and respect amongst his family, and like you said, he kind of does it in a way that would bring him back to where he was happy (Winterfell ...).
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On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. I would agree on Cersei and Joffrey but as far as Jaime is concerned, I found his character strangely fascinating in this episode. Maybe it was because we hadn't seen him for quite a few episodes but the all talk he had with the squire boy in his cage .... all that leading to what we see him doing is pretty amazing. He has this kind of unique lucidity in the show making him really interesting. As we see when he's talking about how pointless vows are, he is perfectly conscious of everything going on, and clearly explained he had to make the choice to protect what he considered to be the most important thing out of all his potential duties. It might be a bit of a cynical vision but he is probably the most down to earth character, which I think is really interesting in this world where most influential characters are leaving on dreams, assumptions and future possibilities (want to be king, should be king, should be free, should claim what's hers etc ....). On the Bran and Rickon chapter, I think Theon already started to gain trust from his men with several actions. IMO, what happened after the Grandmaester of Winterfell was sent back there from the farm is that Theon and his men tortured the farmer to tell them where they went, he resisted so he basically tortured his child in front of him to make him talk. The guy might or might not have spoken (and he might or might not have known anything about their destination) but anyway his kids were tortured and Theon probably decided he could use those bodies as a warning to the people of Winterfell. Considering Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the woman were probably gone from that farm, it would not lower his men esteem to use other bodies pretending they are the Stark kids, especially when these bodies are used in such a cruel fashion which Greyjoys seem to affectionate. He probably still got a few men chasing the Stark boys though. Jaime is a much more sympathetic character when you consider his past. I think when he was younger he was a much more "honorable" person, who was constantly thrust into positions where there were no good decisions to make. He loved Cersei, but wasn't suppose to... you know. He had to stand by while King Aeres did horrific things to people. He was ordered by his father (maybe?) to kill Aeres finally, even though by doing so he broke his vow to protect the king. Given these events, I don't think it's too surprising that he turned out incredibly cynical, especially with someone as ruthless as Tywin for a father. Also, I think his comment about only ever sleeping with Cersei was interesting. He is more faithful to her than Robert ever was. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. The rest of the characters all have significant redeeming qualities, esp. Jaime!
Ruthless to others maybe, but not to his children. Remember how Tywin talked to Arya about how he spent like 3 hours every day teaching Jaime to read? He has high expectations of his children, but he treats them way better than anyone else. In their world pretty much everyone has had to see terrible things, that's hardly a reason for them turning "evil".
Jaime says several times that killing is the only thing he is good at, and that he would be useless at anything else. It's not as though he's simply the product of his past. He WANTS to kill others. Hell, if you watch interviews from the crew they say themselves that while Jaime is an interesting(even likeable) character, there is no arguing that he is a psychotic murderer.
Being able to stay cool under pressure and being able to back talk like a boss aren't exactly redeeming qualities, they just make him seem cool.
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On May 16 2012 02:04 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. I would agree on Cersei and Joffrey but as far as Jaime is concerned, I found his character strangely fascinating in this episode. Maybe it was because we hadn't seen him for quite a few episodes but the all talk he had with the squire boy in his cage .... all that leading to what we see him doing is pretty amazing. He has this kind of unique lucidity in the show making him really interesting. As we see when he's talking about how pointless vows are, he is perfectly conscious of everything going on, and clearly explained he had to make the choice to protect what he considered to be the most important thing out of all his potential duties. It might be a bit of a cynical vision but he is probably the most down to earth character, which I think is really interesting in this world where most influential characters are leaving on dreams, assumptions and future possibilities (want to be king, should be king, should be free, should claim what's hers etc ....). On the Bran and Rickon chapter, I think Theon already started to gain trust from his men with several actions. IMO, what happened after the Grandmaester of Winterfell was sent back there from the farm is that Theon and his men tortured the farmer to tell them where they went, he resisted so he basically tortured his child in front of him to make him talk. The guy might or might not have spoken (and he might or might not have known anything about their destination) but anyway his kids were tortured and Theon probably decided he could use those bodies as a warning to the people of Winterfell. Considering Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the woman were probably gone from that farm, it would not lower his men esteem to use other bodies pretending they are the Stark kids, especially when these bodies are used in such a cruel fashion which Greyjoys seem to affectionate. He probably still got a few men chasing the Stark boys though. Jaime is a much more sympathetic character when you consider his past. I think when he was younger he was a much more "honorable" person, who was constantly thrust into positions where there were no good decisions to make. He loved Cersei, but wasn't suppose to... you know. He had to stand by while King Aeres did horrific things to people. He was ordered by his father (maybe?) to kill Aeres finally, even though by doing so he broke his vow to protect the king. Given these events, I don't think it's too surprising that he turned out incredibly cynical, especially with someone as ruthless as Tywin for a father. Also, I think his comment about only ever sleeping with Cersei was interesting. He is more faithful to her than Robert ever was. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. The rest of the characters all have significant redeeming qualities, esp. Jaime! Ruthless to others maybe, but not to his children. Remember how Tywin talked to Arya about how he spent like 3 hours every day teaching Jaime to read? He has high expectations of his children, but he treats them way better than anyone else. In their world pretty much everyone has had to see terrible things, that's hardly a reason for them turning "evil". Jaime says several times that killing is the only thing he is good at, and that he would be useless at anything else. It's not as though he's simply the product of his past. He WANTS to kill others. Hell, if you watch interviews from the crew they say themselves that while Jaime is an interesting(even likeable) character, there is no arguing that he is a psychotic murderer. Being able to stay cool under pressure and being able to back talk like a boss aren't exactly redeeming qualities, they just make him seem cool.
it's a shame he doesnt have more screentime though. We saw him, what, twice this season? It s hard to have a really good grasp of the character this way, and the changes he's undergoing (if he does)
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Guys... guys... guys...
Hint 1: Bran and his little brother head to small farm, mention two orphan boys, express concern that orphan boys and others will be tortured and interrogated if Theon finds out that they interacted.
Hint 2: Theon finds out that they interacted (walnut shells).
Hint 3: Theon tortures, kills, displays result.
On the "inside the episode" segment about this episode, and on the Wikipedia article about it, the charred remains are never referred to as Bran and Rickon. If it was them, they would NOT write their deaths in in such a shitty way. Imagine the anticlimax if next episode they just go "oh by the way, those corpses were the Stark boys corpses."
Oooooooooooooobviously orphan boys. Fuck, people.
P.S. Have not read one word of any of the books.
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It looked like the walnut shells might have been planted by Theon's first officer.
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There is no such thing as evil, specially in a place with such a low level of technology
Only what needs to be done, and the crazy reasons driving people towards their goals
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On May 16 2012 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 02:04 killa_robot wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. I would agree on Cersei and Joffrey but as far as Jaime is concerned, I found his character strangely fascinating in this episode. Maybe it was because we hadn't seen him for quite a few episodes but the all talk he had with the squire boy in his cage .... all that leading to what we see him doing is pretty amazing. He has this kind of unique lucidity in the show making him really interesting. As we see when he's talking about how pointless vows are, he is perfectly conscious of everything going on, and clearly explained he had to make the choice to protect what he considered to be the most important thing out of all his potential duties. It might be a bit of a cynical vision but he is probably the most down to earth character, which I think is really interesting in this world where most influential characters are leaving on dreams, assumptions and future possibilities (want to be king, should be king, should be free, should claim what's hers etc ....). On the Bran and Rickon chapter, I think Theon already started to gain trust from his men with several actions. IMO, what happened after the Grandmaester of Winterfell was sent back there from the farm is that Theon and his men tortured the farmer to tell them where they went, he resisted so he basically tortured his child in front of him to make him talk. The guy might or might not have spoken (and he might or might not have known anything about their destination) but anyway his kids were tortured and Theon probably decided he could use those bodies as a warning to the people of Winterfell. Considering Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the woman were probably gone from that farm, it would not lower his men esteem to use other bodies pretending they are the Stark kids, especially when these bodies are used in such a cruel fashion which Greyjoys seem to affectionate. He probably still got a few men chasing the Stark boys though. Jaime is a much more sympathetic character when you consider his past. I think when he was younger he was a much more "honorable" person, who was constantly thrust into positions where there were no good decisions to make. He loved Cersei, but wasn't suppose to... you know. He had to stand by while King Aeres did horrific things to people. He was ordered by his father (maybe?) to kill Aeres finally, even though by doing so he broke his vow to protect the king. Given these events, I don't think it's too surprising that he turned out incredibly cynical, especially with someone as ruthless as Tywin for a father. Also, I think his comment about only ever sleeping with Cersei was interesting. He is more faithful to her than Robert ever was. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. The rest of the characters all have significant redeeming qualities, esp. Jaime! Ruthless to others maybe, but not to his children. Remember how Tywin talked to Arya about how he spent like 3 hours every day teaching Jaime to read? He has high expectations of his children, but he treats them way better than anyone else. In their world pretty much everyone has had to see terrible things, that's hardly a reason for them turning "evil". Jaime says several times that killing is the only thing he is good at, and that he would be useless at anything else. It's not as though he's simply the product of his past. He WANTS to kill others. Hell, if you watch interviews from the crew they say themselves that while Jaime is an interesting(even likeable) character, there is no arguing that he is a psychotic murderer. Being able to stay cool under pressure and being able to back talk like a boss aren't exactly redeeming qualities, they just make him seem cool. it's a shame he doesnt have more screentime though. We saw him, what, twice this season? It s hard to have a really good grasp of the character this way, and the changes he's undergoing (if he does)
Oh I agree, he's an interesting character I think we should see more of. I'm just annoyed that everyone is all "Jaime is a good guy", when it's clear he can kill his own cousin and not even care.
For comparison, Robb is keeping prisoners of war rather than killing them (which is using a lot of his resources), and even Theon was hesitant to kill people from his old town.
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On May 15 2012 23:19 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 23:07 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. Theon is clearly not evil, is more of a tortured man. I would say conflicted rather than tortured... He spends a lot of screentime complaining about being "torn away" from his family as a child, but this didn't seem to bother him when he was with Robb. In my opinion, he complains now b/c he needs to rationalize the evil things he is doing, but he still knows what he is doing is wrong and unjustified. I think he was in fact happy with the Starks. Then he returned home and saw how shitty Pyke was. By conquering Winterfell, he is in part trying to return to the place where he was happy, while still living up to his father's expectations. And in the process he is doing very evil things for selfish reasons.
Robb and the Starks were good to him, but they were sometimes still bitches about the fact that Theon was a ward/hostage, like when Theon saved Bran. I found that a bit stupid on Robb's part.
On May 16 2012 02:25 Last.Midnight wrote:
Guys... guys... guys...
Hint 1: Bran and his little brother head to small farm, mention two orphan boys, express concern that orphan boys and others will be tortured and interrogated if Theon finds out that they interacted.
Hint 2: Theon finds out that they interacted (walnut shells).
Hint 3: Theon tortures, kills, displays result.
On the "inside the episode" segment about this episode, and on the Wikipedia article about it, the charred remains are never referred to as Bran and Rickon. If it was them, they would NOT write their deaths in in such a shitty way. Imagine the anticlimax if next episode they just go "oh by the way, those corpses were the Stark boys corpses."
Oooooooooooooobviously orphan boys. Fuck, people.
P.S. Have not read one word of any of the books.
Mod edit: book book book
User was warned for this post
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On May 16 2012 02:04 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. I would agree on Cersei and Joffrey but as far as Jaime is concerned, I found his character strangely fascinating in this episode. Maybe it was because we hadn't seen him for quite a few episodes but the all talk he had with the squire boy in his cage .... all that leading to what we see him doing is pretty amazing. He has this kind of unique lucidity in the show making him really interesting. As we see when he's talking about how pointless vows are, he is perfectly conscious of everything going on, and clearly explained he had to make the choice to protect what he considered to be the most important thing out of all his potential duties. It might be a bit of a cynical vision but he is probably the most down to earth character, which I think is really interesting in this world where most influential characters are leaving on dreams, assumptions and future possibilities (want to be king, should be king, should be free, should claim what's hers etc ....). On the Bran and Rickon chapter, I think Theon already started to gain trust from his men with several actions. IMO, what happened after the Grandmaester of Winterfell was sent back there from the farm is that Theon and his men tortured the farmer to tell them where they went, he resisted so he basically tortured his child in front of him to make him talk. The guy might or might not have spoken (and he might or might not have known anything about their destination) but anyway his kids were tortured and Theon probably decided he could use those bodies as a warning to the people of Winterfell. Considering Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the woman were probably gone from that farm, it would not lower his men esteem to use other bodies pretending they are the Stark kids, especially when these bodies are used in such a cruel fashion which Greyjoys seem to affectionate. He probably still got a few men chasing the Stark boys though. Jaime is a much more sympathetic character when you consider his past. I think when he was younger he was a much more "honorable" person, who was constantly thrust into positions where there were no good decisions to make. He loved Cersei, but wasn't suppose to... you know. He had to stand by while King Aeres did horrific things to people. He was ordered by his father (maybe?) to kill Aeres finally, even though by doing so he broke his vow to protect the king. Given these events, I don't think it's too surprising that he turned out incredibly cynical, especially with someone as ruthless as Tywin for a father. Also, I think his comment about only ever sleeping with Cersei was interesting. He is more faithful to her than Robert ever was. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. The rest of the characters all have significant redeeming qualities, esp. Jaime! Ruthless to others maybe, but not to his children. Remember how Tywin talked to Arya about how he spent like 3 hours every day teaching Jaime to read? He has high expectations of his children, but he treats them way better than anyone else. In their world pretty much everyone has had to see terrible things, that's hardly a reason for them turning "evil". Jaime says several times that killing is the only thing he is good at, and that he would be useless at anything else. It's not as though he's simply the product of his past. He WANTS to kill others. Hell, if you watch interviews from the crew they say themselves that while Jaime is an interesting(even likeable) character, there is no arguing that he is a psychotic murderer. Being able to stay cool under pressure and being able to back talk like a boss aren't exactly redeeming qualities, they just make him seem cool.
I def. agree with your last paragraph, but those weren't the qualities I was referring to. Jaime is kind to Tyrion and has always been loyal to Cersei. I'm not arguing that he's a good guy, just "sympathetic" once you look at things from his point of view. I also disagree that he wants to kill others. He enjoys fighting, and will certainly not hesitate to kill, but he would not kill at random or for pure enjoyment (*coughjoffreycough*).
And as for Tywin not being ruthless to his children... do you remember the story about Tyrion and his wife? Don't judge his parenting skills just based off that one anecdote about teaching Jaime to read.
I think people are judging Tywin too kindly because of the grandfatherly scenes he has with Arya. In that same scene we see him terrorizing his own soldiers and ordering Clegane to rape and murder the surrounding farm communities.
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On May 16 2012 03:07 D10 wrote:
There is no such thing as evil, specially in a place with such a low level of technology
Only what needs to be done, and the crazy reasons driving people towards their goals
... well you know, if torturing and killing children for personal gain isn't evil, I guess, you don't believe in evil ...
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On May 16 2012 03:07 D10 wrote:
There is no such thing as evil, specially in a place with such a low level of technology
Only what needs to be done, and the crazy reasons driving people towards their goals
Its cultural thing rather than technological. But, you are right. 200 years from now we might be considered to have been barbarians since we eat flesh of animals etc etc etc... Its easy to take moral high ground when your surrounding has always pressured you to behave certain way and you really dont know any other way of living.
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On May 16 2012 03:12 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 23:19 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 23:07 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. Theon is clearly not evil, is more of a tortured man. I would say conflicted rather than tortured... He spends a lot of screentime complaining about being "torn away" from his family as a child, but this didn't seem to bother him when he was with Robb. In my opinion, he complains now b/c he needs to rationalize the evil things he is doing, but he still knows what he is doing is wrong and unjustified. I think he was in fact happy with the Starks. Then he returned home and saw how shitty Pyke was. By conquering Winterfell, he is in part trying to return to the place where he was happy, while still living up to his father's expectations. And in the process he is doing very evil things for selfish reasons. Robb and the Starks were good to him, but they were sometimes still bitches about the fact that Theon was a ward/hostage, like when Theon saved Bran. I found that a bit stupid on Robb's part. Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 02:25 Last.Midnight wrote:
Guys... guys... guys...
Hint 1: Bran and his little brother head to small farm, mention two orphan boys, express concern that orphan boys and others will be tortured and interrogated if Theon finds out that they interacted.
Hint 2: Theon finds out that they interacted (walnut shells).
Hint 3: Theon tortures, kills, displays result.
On the "inside the episode" segment about this episode, and on the Wikipedia article about it, the charred remains are never referred to as Bran and Rickon. If it was them, they would NOT write their deaths in in such a shitty way. Imagine the anticlimax if next episode they just go "oh by the way, those corpses were the Stark boys corpses."
Oooooooooooooobviously orphan boys. Fuck, people.
P.S. Have not read one word of any of the books.
As obvious as it may be, don't just flat out tell facts from the book like that
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On May 16 2012 03:12 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 23:19 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 23:07 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. Theon is clearly not evil, is more of a tortured man. I would say conflicted rather than tortured... He spends a lot of screentime complaining about being "torn away" from his family as a child, but this didn't seem to bother him when he was with Robb. In my opinion, he complains now b/c he needs to rationalize the evil things he is doing, but he still knows what he is doing is wrong and unjustified. I think he was in fact happy with the Starks. Then he returned home and saw how shitty Pyke was. By conquering Winterfell, he is in part trying to return to the place where he was happy, while still living up to his father's expectations. And in the process he is doing very evil things for selfish reasons. Robb and the Starks were good to him, but they were sometimes still bitches about the fact that Theon was a ward/hostage, like when Theon saved Bran. I found that a bit stupid on Robb's part. Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 02:25 Last.Midnight wrote:
Guys... guys... guys...
Hint 1: Bran and his little brother head to small farm, mention two orphan boys, express concern that orphan boys and others will be tortured and interrogated if Theon finds out that they interacted.
Hint 2: Theon finds out that they interacted (walnut shells).
Hint 3: Theon tortures, kills, displays result.
On the "inside the episode" segment about this episode, and on the Wikipedia article about it, the charred remains are never referred to as Bran and Rickon. If it was them, they would NOT write their deaths in in such a shitty way. Imagine the anticlimax if next episode they just go "oh by the way, those corpses were the Stark boys corpses."
Oooooooooooooobviously orphan boys. Fuck, people.
P.S. Have not read one word of any of the books. Yes indeed it's pretty obvious. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
^not cool man -_-
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Its one thing to speculate. But please don't confirm/deny anything from the books.
What do you guys think is going to happen with Arya? She has one kill left to use. Im thinking Tywin knows who she is already, maybe just waiting for confirmation from Kings Landing that she is missing. She'll probably use her last kill to get away.
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On May 16 2012 03:42 Hittomogasin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 03:07 D10 wrote:
There is no such thing as evil, specially in a place with such a low level of technology
Only what needs to be done, and the crazy reasons driving people towards their goals Its cultural thing rather than technological. But, you are right. 200 years from now we might be considered to have been barbarians since we eat flesh of animals etc etc etc... Its easy to take moral high ground when your surrounding has always pressured you to behave certain way and you really dont know any other way of living.
Yeh, the meta-game of morality is constantly being developed.
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Any word on Ramsay or who will play him yet? All we heard so far was Roose saying that his son would be more than glad to dispose of Theon, to Robb.
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On May 16 2012 03:14 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 02:04 killa_robot wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. I would agree on Cersei and Joffrey but as far as Jaime is concerned, I found his character strangely fascinating in this episode. Maybe it was because we hadn't seen him for quite a few episodes but the all talk he had with the squire boy in his cage .... all that leading to what we see him doing is pretty amazing. He has this kind of unique lucidity in the show making him really interesting. As we see when he's talking about how pointless vows are, he is perfectly conscious of everything going on, and clearly explained he had to make the choice to protect what he considered to be the most important thing out of all his potential duties. It might be a bit of a cynical vision but he is probably the most down to earth character, which I think is really interesting in this world where most influential characters are leaving on dreams, assumptions and future possibilities (want to be king, should be king, should be free, should claim what's hers etc ....). On the Bran and Rickon chapter, I think Theon already started to gain trust from his men with several actions. IMO, what happened after the Grandmaester of Winterfell was sent back there from the farm is that Theon and his men tortured the farmer to tell them where they went, he resisted so he basically tortured his child in front of him to make him talk. The guy might or might not have spoken (and he might or might not have known anything about their destination) but anyway his kids were tortured and Theon probably decided he could use those bodies as a warning to the people of Winterfell. Considering Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the woman were probably gone from that farm, it would not lower his men esteem to use other bodies pretending they are the Stark kids, especially when these bodies are used in such a cruel fashion which Greyjoys seem to affectionate. He probably still got a few men chasing the Stark boys though. Jaime is a much more sympathetic character when you consider his past. I think when he was younger he was a much more "honorable" person, who was constantly thrust into positions where there were no good decisions to make. He loved Cersei, but wasn't suppose to... you know. He had to stand by while King Aeres did horrific things to people. He was ordered by his father (maybe?) to kill Aeres finally, even though by doing so he broke his vow to protect the king. Given these events, I don't think it's too surprising that he turned out incredibly cynical, especially with someone as ruthless as Tywin for a father. Also, I think his comment about only ever sleeping with Cersei was interesting. He is more faithful to her than Robert ever was. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. The rest of the characters all have significant redeeming qualities, esp. Jaime! Ruthless to others maybe, but not to his children. Remember how Tywin talked to Arya about how he spent like 3 hours every day teaching Jaime to read? He has high expectations of his children, but he treats them way better than anyone else. In their world pretty much everyone has had to see terrible things, that's hardly a reason for them turning "evil". Jaime says several times that killing is the only thing he is good at, and that he would be useless at anything else. It's not as though he's simply the product of his past. He WANTS to kill others. Hell, if you watch interviews from the crew they say themselves that while Jaime is an interesting(even likeable) character, there is no arguing that he is a psychotic murderer. Being able to stay cool under pressure and being able to back talk like a boss aren't exactly redeeming qualities, they just make him seem cool. I def. agree with your last paragraph, but those weren't the qualities I was referring to. Jaime is kind to Tyrion and has always been loyal to Cersei. I'm not arguing that he's a good guy, just "sympathetic" once you look at things from his point of view. I also disagree that he wants to kill others. He enjoys fighting, and will certainly not hesitate to kill, but he would not kill at random or for pure enjoyment (*coughjoffreycough*). And as for Tywin not being ruthless to his children... do you remember the story about Tyrion and his wife? Don't judge his parenting skills just based off that one anecdote about teaching Jaime to read. I think people are judging Tywin too kindly because of the grandfatherly scenes he has with Arya. In that same scene we see him terrorizing his own soldiers and ordering Clegane to rape and murder the surrounding farm communities.
He killed his cousin to escape, when he could have just as easily told his cousin to scream and then play dead, as the only reason for killing him was to get the guard to enter the cell. He made the choice to kill him rather than to not.
You can't really judge Tywin's parenting style for Cersei or Jaime based on what he did with Tyrion. Both he and Cersei hate Tyrion for killing Joanna (Tywin's wife and Cersei's mother), and they aren't exactly subtle about it.
You can feel sympathy for all the characters in the series, even Jofferey. Jofferey was pretty much handed everything in life, and was constantly told he was great and would one day be king. That sort of upbringing would turn most people into what he became.
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On May 16 2012 05:10 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 03:14 Mercy13 wrote:On May 16 2012 02:04 killa_robot wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. I would agree on Cersei and Joffrey but as far as Jaime is concerned, I found his character strangely fascinating in this episode. Maybe it was because we hadn't seen him for quite a few episodes but the all talk he had with the squire boy in his cage .... all that leading to what we see him doing is pretty amazing. He has this kind of unique lucidity in the show making him really interesting. As we see when he's talking about how pointless vows are, he is perfectly conscious of everything going on, and clearly explained he had to make the choice to protect what he considered to be the most important thing out of all his potential duties. It might be a bit of a cynical vision but he is probably the most down to earth character, which I think is really interesting in this world where most influential characters are leaving on dreams, assumptions and future possibilities (want to be king, should be king, should be free, should claim what's hers etc ....). On the Bran and Rickon chapter, I think Theon already started to gain trust from his men with several actions. IMO, what happened after the Grandmaester of Winterfell was sent back there from the farm is that Theon and his men tortured the farmer to tell them where they went, he resisted so he basically tortured his child in front of him to make him talk. The guy might or might not have spoken (and he might or might not have known anything about their destination) but anyway his kids were tortured and Theon probably decided he could use those bodies as a warning to the people of Winterfell. Considering Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the woman were probably gone from that farm, it would not lower his men esteem to use other bodies pretending they are the Stark kids, especially when these bodies are used in such a cruel fashion which Greyjoys seem to affectionate. He probably still got a few men chasing the Stark boys though. Jaime is a much more sympathetic character when you consider his past. I think when he was younger he was a much more "honorable" person, who was constantly thrust into positions where there were no good decisions to make. He loved Cersei, but wasn't suppose to... you know. He had to stand by while King Aeres did horrific things to people. He was ordered by his father (maybe?) to kill Aeres finally, even though by doing so he broke his vow to protect the king. Given these events, I don't think it's too surprising that he turned out incredibly cynical, especially with someone as ruthless as Tywin for a father. Also, I think his comment about only ever sleeping with Cersei was interesting. He is more faithful to her than Robert ever was. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. The rest of the characters all have significant redeeming qualities, esp. Jaime! Ruthless to others maybe, but not to his children. Remember how Tywin talked to Arya about how he spent like 3 hours every day teaching Jaime to read? He has high expectations of his children, but he treats them way better than anyone else. In their world pretty much everyone has had to see terrible things, that's hardly a reason for them turning "evil". Jaime says several times that killing is the only thing he is good at, and that he would be useless at anything else. It's not as though he's simply the product of his past. He WANTS to kill others. Hell, if you watch interviews from the crew they say themselves that while Jaime is an interesting(even likeable) character, there is no arguing that he is a psychotic murderer. Being able to stay cool under pressure and being able to back talk like a boss aren't exactly redeeming qualities, they just make him seem cool. I def. agree with your last paragraph, but those weren't the qualities I was referring to. Jaime is kind to Tyrion and has always been loyal to Cersei. I'm not arguing that he's a good guy, just "sympathetic" once you look at things from his point of view. I also disagree that he wants to kill others. He enjoys fighting, and will certainly not hesitate to kill, but he would not kill at random or for pure enjoyment (*coughjoffreycough*). And as for Tywin not being ruthless to his children... do you remember the story about Tyrion and his wife? Don't judge his parenting skills just based off that one anecdote about teaching Jaime to read. I think people are judging Tywin too kindly because of the grandfatherly scenes he has with Arya. In that same scene we see him terrorizing his own soldiers and ordering Clegane to rape and murder the surrounding farm communities. He killed his cousin to escape, when he could have just as easily told his cousin to scream and then play dead, as the only reason for killing him was to get the guard to enter the cell. He made the choice to kill him rather than to not. You can't really judge Tywin's parenting style for Cersei or Jaime based on what he did with Tyrion. Both he and Cersei hate Tyrion for killing Joanna (Tywin's wife and Cersei's mother), and they aren't exactly subtle about it. You can feel sympathy for all the characters in the series, even Jofferey. Jofferey was pretty much handed everything in life, and was constantly told he was great and would one day be king. That sort of upbringing would turn most people into what he became.
Or you could say that that turned him into what he is. I, for one, don't believe in character being involved with genetics in any way.
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On May 16 2012 05:28 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 05:10 killa_robot wrote:On May 16 2012 03:14 Mercy13 wrote:On May 16 2012 02:04 killa_robot wrote:On May 15 2012 22:50 Mercy13 wrote:On May 15 2012 19:37 Emix_Squall wrote:On May 15 2012 17:28 Talack wrote:
Jaime, Cersei and Joffery are the bad guys. I would agree on Cersei and Joffrey but as far as Jaime is concerned, I found his character strangely fascinating in this episode. Maybe it was because we hadn't seen him for quite a few episodes but the all talk he had with the squire boy in his cage .... all that leading to what we see him doing is pretty amazing. He has this kind of unique lucidity in the show making him really interesting. As we see when he's talking about how pointless vows are, he is perfectly conscious of everything going on, and clearly explained he had to make the choice to protect what he considered to be the most important thing out of all his potential duties. It might be a bit of a cynical vision but he is probably the most down to earth character, which I think is really interesting in this world where most influential characters are leaving on dreams, assumptions and future possibilities (want to be king, should be king, should be free, should claim what's hers etc ....). On the Bran and Rickon chapter, I think Theon already started to gain trust from his men with several actions. IMO, what happened after the Grandmaester of Winterfell was sent back there from the farm is that Theon and his men tortured the farmer to tell them where they went, he resisted so he basically tortured his child in front of him to make him talk. The guy might or might not have spoken (and he might or might not have known anything about their destination) but anyway his kids were tortured and Theon probably decided he could use those bodies as a warning to the people of Winterfell. Considering Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the woman were probably gone from that farm, it would not lower his men esteem to use other bodies pretending they are the Stark kids, especially when these bodies are used in such a cruel fashion which Greyjoys seem to affectionate. He probably still got a few men chasing the Stark boys though. Jaime is a much more sympathetic character when you consider his past. I think when he was younger he was a much more "honorable" person, who was constantly thrust into positions where there were no good decisions to make. He loved Cersei, but wasn't suppose to... you know. He had to stand by while King Aeres did horrific things to people. He was ordered by his father (maybe?) to kill Aeres finally, even though by doing so he broke his vow to protect the king. Given these events, I don't think it's too surprising that he turned out incredibly cynical, especially with someone as ruthless as Tywin for a father. Also, I think his comment about only ever sleeping with Cersei was interesting. He is more faithful to her than Robert ever was. IMO the only truley evil characters in the show are Joffrey and Gregor Clegane, and maybe Theon. The rest of the characters all have significant redeeming qualities, esp. Jaime! Ruthless to others maybe, but not to his children. Remember how Tywin talked to Arya about how he spent like 3 hours every day teaching Jaime to read? He has high expectations of his children, but he treats them way better than anyone else. In their world pretty much everyone has had to see terrible things, that's hardly a reason for them turning "evil". Jaime says several times that killing is the only thing he is good at, and that he would be useless at anything else. It's not as though he's simply the product of his past. He WANTS to kill others. Hell, if you watch interviews from the crew they say themselves that while Jaime is an interesting(even likeable) character, there is no arguing that he is a psychotic murderer. Being able to stay cool under pressure and being able to back talk like a boss aren't exactly redeeming qualities, they just make him seem cool. I def. agree with your last paragraph, but those weren't the qualities I was referring to. Jaime is kind to Tyrion and has always been loyal to Cersei. I'm not arguing that he's a good guy, just "sympathetic" once you look at things from his point of view. I also disagree that he wants to kill others. He enjoys fighting, and will certainly not hesitate to kill, but he would not kill at random or for pure enjoyment (*coughjoffreycough*). And as for Tywin not being ruthless to his children... do you remember the story about Tyrion and his wife? Don't judge his parenting skills just based off that one anecdote about teaching Jaime to read. I think people are judging Tywin too kindly because of the grandfatherly scenes he has with Arya. In that same scene we see him terrorizing his own soldiers and ordering Clegane to rape and murder the surrounding farm communities. He killed his cousin to escape, when he could have just as easily told his cousin to scream and then play dead, as the only reason for killing him was to get the guard to enter the cell. He made the choice to kill him rather than to not. You can't really judge Tywin's parenting style for Cersei or Jaime based on what he did with Tyrion. Both he and Cersei hate Tyrion for killing Joanna (Tywin's wife and Cersei's mother), and they aren't exactly subtle about it. You can feel sympathy for all the characters in the series, even Jofferey. Jofferey was pretty much handed everything in life, and was constantly told he was great and would one day be king. That sort of upbringing would turn most people into what he became. Or you could say that that turned him into what he is. I, for one, don't believe in character being involved with genetics in any way.
That what turned who into who he is? I talked about several different people there.
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