|
All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 27 2019 21:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I even already engaged you in your claims of the argument of "on the nose" which you also completely ignored. Are you actually interested in this discussion and care about what other people have to say? So far it doesn't seem like it
No not really, seems obvious to me as lurker based on reg.date, post history and quality of posted youtube videos.
|
The discussion about Dany's mental health is quite interesting. I've read multiple articles written by psychologists diagnosing the major characters and they all actually considered Dany to be the most mentally healthy and strong character out of the cast, using the DSM-5 (standard) method she would fill no criteria for a diagnosis based on of what have been written or showed in the show.
They are a bit dated but for what it's worth were written while the show was mostly based on the books.
One article had the psychologist use positive-psychology to analyse her character and found Justice and Courage to be her top strengths. Which would explain how she's able to overcome all the stressors she's exposed to in her early years (courage) and her obsession with helping the innocent (justice). Another article mentioned she had an extreme level of self-perfectionism, which would explain why she always strive to make the perfect world as she starts to project it outwards (her supposed "megalomania" is actually her just trying to make a perfect world free of suffering in the most efficient way). She did show signs of actute stress disorder while she lived with her physical/sexual abusive brother and her relationship with Drogo was basically him raping her over and over. Her lack of feelings when her brother is executed was a "normal" response to finally have her tormentor suffer.
From what I could gather from their articles and in respect to classical litterature she was in a way the classical hero. Always striving for justice, is courageous to an extreme level and will do anything to protect the weak. Her rage in the climax should if anything have been directed towards the inner circle that betrayed her and the enemy soldiers and them only. She would have went to great lengths to save the innocent civilians.
I dont mind when writers for the sake of the story drop bombs. But the bomb of Dany going cray-cray was so out of character and unrealistic it made less sense than the sudden and complete lack of stratetic understanding during the final fight against the Whitewalkers.
|
France7248 Posts
"The Last Watch" was by far the best thing of this season
|
Then people figured it out three seasons before it happened based on knowing what type of writers GRRM is, rather than the actual character?
|
people are dumb tho (not directed at you). go figure
anyway loads of people said it would be OK if it was written better. we really shouldnt be bothering with this arguement anymore, based on that
|
On May 28 2019 06:58 Rasalased wrote:
Then people figured it out three seasons before it happened based on knowing what type of writers GRRM is, rather than the actual character?
Most importantly, they figured it out based on the books. Similarly it's much easier to read Cersei when you can get inside her head and see her true motivations, biases, etc.
|
When you watch the end of a series like GoT, and you only felt no attachment to the fate of any main character, it is horrible writing, i remembered when I couldnt wait to see the next chapter, in this season I justo wanted GoT to end fast to cancel HBO. I can't believe that some people liked this horrendous season.
|
On May 28 2019 05:46 Jek wrote:
The discussion about Dany's mental health is quite interesting. I've read multiple articles written by psychologists diagnosing the major characters and they all actually considered Dany to be the most mentally healthy and strong character out of the cast, using the DSM-5 (standard) method she would fill no criteria for a diagnosis based on of what have been written or showed in the show.
They are a bit dated but for what it's worth were written while the show was mostly based on the books.
One article had the psychologist use positive-psychology to analyse her character and found Justice and Courage to be her top strengths. Which would explain how she's able to overcome all the stressors she's exposed to in her early years (courage) and her obsession with helping the innocent (justice). Another article mentioned she had an extreme level of self-perfectionism, which would explain why she always strive to make the perfect world as she starts to project it outwards (her supposed "megalomania" is actually her just trying to make a perfect world free of suffering in the most efficient way). She did show signs of actute stress disorder while she lived with her physical/sexual abusive brother and her relationship with Drogo was basically him raping her over and over. Her lack of feelings when her brother is executed was a "normal" response to finally have her tormentor suffer.
From what I could gather from their articles and in respect to classical litterature she was in a way the classical hero. Always striving for justice, is courageous to an extreme level and will do anything to protect the weak. Her rage in the climax should if anything have been directed towards the inner circle that betrayed her and the enemy soldiers and them only. She would have went to great lengths to save the innocent civilians.
I dont mind when writers for the sake of the story drop bombs. But the bomb of Dany going cray-cray was so out of character and unrealistic it made less sense than the sudden and complete lack of stratetic understanding during the final fight against the Whitewalkers.
Then those psychologists are fake. I don't see how anyone that goes around and orders murder of thousands can be mentally healthy.
And having no emotions when your brother is brutally murdered in front of you is not healthy. He was not her abuser. At worst he hit her a few times when she was younger (something that happens to many many young children all over the world from their parents as it still is considered normal in most of the world to punish children with physical punishment) but at same time he kept her alive and fed and protected her.
Anyone that tells me that it is OK to have your family murdered because they hit you once and then went a bit crazy while drunk needs to have their head checked out. There are many ways to solve that situation without needing to kill him (like banishment).
|
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
On May 28 2019 17:53 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 05:46 Jek wrote:
The discussion about Dany's mental health is quite interesting. I've read multiple articles written by psychologists diagnosing the major characters and they all actually considered Dany to be the most mentally healthy and strong character out of the cast, using the DSM-5 (standard) method she would fill no criteria for a diagnosis based on of what have been written or showed in the show.
They are a bit dated but for what it's worth were written while the show was mostly based on the books.
One article had the psychologist use positive-psychology to analyse her character and found Justice and Courage to be her top strengths. Which would explain how she's able to overcome all the stressors she's exposed to in her early years (courage) and her obsession with helping the innocent (justice). Another article mentioned she had an extreme level of self-perfectionism, which would explain why she always strive to make the perfect world as she starts to project it outwards (her supposed "megalomania" is actually her just trying to make a perfect world free of suffering in the most efficient way). She did show signs of actute stress disorder while she lived with her physical/sexual abusive brother and her relationship with Drogo was basically him raping her over and over. Her lack of feelings when her brother is executed was a "normal" response to finally have her tormentor suffer.
From what I could gather from their articles and in respect to classical litterature she was in a way the classical hero. Always striving for justice, is courageous to an extreme level and will do anything to protect the weak. Her rage in the climax should if anything have been directed towards the inner circle that betrayed her and the enemy soldiers and them only. She would have went to great lengths to save the innocent civilians.
I dont mind when writers for the sake of the story drop bombs. But the bomb of Dany going cray-cray was so out of character and unrealistic it made less sense than the sudden and complete lack of stratetic understanding during the final fight against the Whitewalkers. Then those psychologists are fake. I don't see how anyone that goes around and orders murder of thousands can be mentally healthy. And having no emotions when your brother is brutally murdered in front of you is not healthy. He was not her abuser. At worst he hit her a few times when she was younger (something that happens to many many young children all over the world from their parents as it still is considered normal in most of the world to punish children with physical punishment) but at same time he kept her alive and fed and protected her. Anyone that tells me that it is OK to have your family murdered because they hit you once and then went a bit crazy while drunk needs to have their head checked out. There are many ways to solve that situation without needing to kill him (like banishment).
He’s extremely controlling in the show, sexual abuse is really heavily implied as well.
He doesn’t protect her at all out of fraternal love, she’s an asset for him to get the crown. The guy literally he says he’d let her get fucked by every member of the Dothraki if that’s what it took.
Maybe those psychologists are fake, I haven’t really read said article, I assume they frame their judgements with what is normal within that universe (and was quite normal through much of human history).
I’d trust their slant over yours if you haven’t noticed Viserys doesn’t so much show the odd red flag but basically is wholly made of red flags of typical abuser behaviour, plus is deluded and narcissistic to boot.
|
On May 28 2019 18:12 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 17:53 -Archangel- wrote:On May 28 2019 05:46 Jek wrote:
The discussion about Dany's mental health is quite interesting. I've read multiple articles written by psychologists diagnosing the major characters and they all actually considered Dany to be the most mentally healthy and strong character out of the cast, using the DSM-5 (standard) method she would fill no criteria for a diagnosis based on of what have been written or showed in the show.
They are a bit dated but for what it's worth were written while the show was mostly based on the books.
One article had the psychologist use positive-psychology to analyse her character and found Justice and Courage to be her top strengths. Which would explain how she's able to overcome all the stressors she's exposed to in her early years (courage) and her obsession with helping the innocent (justice). Another article mentioned she had an extreme level of self-perfectionism, which would explain why she always strive to make the perfect world as she starts to project it outwards (her supposed "megalomania" is actually her just trying to make a perfect world free of suffering in the most efficient way). She did show signs of actute stress disorder while she lived with her physical/sexual abusive brother and her relationship with Drogo was basically him raping her over and over. Her lack of feelings when her brother is executed was a "normal" response to finally have her tormentor suffer.
From what I could gather from their articles and in respect to classical litterature she was in a way the classical hero. Always striving for justice, is courageous to an extreme level and will do anything to protect the weak. Her rage in the climax should if anything have been directed towards the inner circle that betrayed her and the enemy soldiers and them only. She would have went to great lengths to save the innocent civilians.
I dont mind when writers for the sake of the story drop bombs. But the bomb of Dany going cray-cray was so out of character and unrealistic it made less sense than the sudden and complete lack of stratetic understanding during the final fight against the Whitewalkers. Then those psychologists are fake. I don't see how anyone that goes around and orders murder of thousands can be mentally healthy. And having no emotions when your brother is brutally murdered in front of you is not healthy. He was not her abuser. At worst he hit her a few times when she was younger (something that happens to many many young children all over the world from their parents as it still is considered normal in most of the world to punish children with physical punishment) but at same time he kept her alive and fed and protected her. Anyone that tells me that it is OK to have your family murdered because they hit you once and then went a bit crazy while drunk needs to have their head checked out. There are many ways to solve that situation without needing to kill him (like banishment). He’s extremely controlling in the show, sexual abuse is really heavily implied as well. He doesn’t protect her at all out of fraternal love, she’s an asset for him to get the crown. The guy literally he says he’d let her get fucked by every member of the Dothraki if that’s what it took. Maybe those psychologists are fake, I haven’t really read said article, I assume they frame their judgements with what is normal within that universe (and was quite normal through much of human history). I’d trust their slant over yours if you haven’t noticed Viserys doesn’t so much show the odd red flag but basically is wholly made of red flags of typical abuser behaviour, plus is deluded and narcissistic to boot.
He never sexually abused her before or during the story of the show. He does say some nasty things to her, hits her once and while drunk and angry threatens her with a sword (which is almost ignored by Dothraki because he is considered a harmless fool) . He never actually does anything that deserves his death, especially not one of such brutality and certainly not while she looks at him with such coldness, almost enjoying it.
I am 100% sure those psychologists used 21st century test to determine who is healthy and who is not so there is no valid talk here about taking into account that world and what is normal there.
And that only makes it worse because even in western countries with capital punishment, her brother would never get it for those crimes.
|
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
Come on man one of the first scenes with her he undressed her and feels her up, way above what is explicable by ‘you better look good on your wedding day’
|
On May 28 2019 19:38 Wombat_NI wrote:
Come on man one of the first scenes with her he undressed her and feels her up, way above what is explicable by ‘you better look good on your wedding day’
OK, I forgot about that one :D
I meant he never raped her or had sexual intercourse of any kind.
For touching her like that, he still does not deserve to be brutally murdered. Especially since I kind of doubt she even considered that as sexual abuse since she was a product of that time. That scene means more to viewers with 21st century morality than to her.
Her situation is not that much different than Sansa that is "sold" to Baratheons in marriage pact. Or any other high or low born girl of that time.
|
On May 28 2019 19:41 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 19:38 Wombat_NI wrote:
Come on man one of the first scenes with her he undressed her and feels her up, way above what is explicable by ‘you better look good on your wedding day’ OK, I forgot about that one :D I meant he never raped her or had sexual intercourse of any kind. For touching her like that, he still does not deserve to be brutally murdered. Especially since I kind of doubt she even considered that as sexual abuse since she was a product of that time. That scene means more to viewers with 21st century morality than to her. Her situation is not that much different than Sansa that is "sold" to Baratheons in marriage pact. Or any other high or low born girl of that time.
In the books you get more of a look inside her head, and she definitely considered him a monster. Her brother, but a monster.
It's difficult to translate that to a screen, but I think they did a pretty good job of portraying (1) Viserys as a particularly nasty human being, and (2) Daenerys's growing realization that she doesn't need to put up with his shit.
|
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
I think it’s an implication that he was pretty routinely sexually abusive, I preferred it when GoT hinted but didn’t show.
She did protect him as well initially so there’s that.
Viserys deserves to die as much as almost any character in GoT because he’s a terrible person for one, but he’s also a complete dumbass who doesn’t realise what situation he’s in. Dangerous combo in that environment of Dothraki night is right culture
|
On May 28 2019 19:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
I think it’s an implication that he was pretty routinely sexually abusive, I preferred it when GoT hinted but didn’t show.
She did protect him as well initially so there’s that.
Viserys deserves to die as much as almost any character in GoT because he’s a terrible person for one, but he’s also a complete dumbass who doesn’t realise what situation he’s in. Dangerous combo in that environment of Dothraki night is right culture
How is he a terrible person? He did nothing by the time he died. He killed nobody, he raped nobody. He conquered nobody.
Your stance is that everyone that does not hold your values is a terrible person and needs to die? Really?
EDIT: Because I didn't see any reason for him to die. There is barely a reason for that guy from ep 1 that Ned beheads to die. And he did more wrong for the society at large than Viserys did. And I think Ned felt more bad about him dying than Dany did for her own brother.
|
On May 28 2019 17:53 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 05:46 Jek wrote:
The discussion about Dany's mental health is quite interesting. I've read multiple articles written by psychologists diagnosing the major characters and they all actually considered Dany to be the most mentally healthy and strong character out of the cast, using the DSM-5 (standard) method she would fill no criteria for a diagnosis based on of what have been written or showed in the show.
They are a bit dated but for what it's worth were written while the show was mostly based on the books.
One article had the psychologist use positive-psychology to analyse her character and found Justice and Courage to be her top strengths. Which would explain how she's able to overcome all the stressors she's exposed to in her early years (courage) and her obsession with helping the innocent (justice). Another article mentioned she had an extreme level of self-perfectionism, which would explain why she always strive to make the perfect world as she starts to project it outwards (her supposed "megalomania" is actually her just trying to make a perfect world free of suffering in the most efficient way). She did show signs of actute stress disorder while she lived with her physical/sexual abusive brother and her relationship with Drogo was basically him raping her over and over. Her lack of feelings when her brother is executed was a "normal" response to finally have her tormentor suffer.
From what I could gather from their articles and in respect to classical litterature she was in a way the classical hero. Always striving for justice, is courageous to an extreme level and will do anything to protect the weak. Her rage in the climax should if anything have been directed towards the inner circle that betrayed her and the enemy soldiers and them only. She would have went to great lengths to save the innocent civilians.
I dont mind when writers for the sake of the story drop bombs. But the bomb of Dany going cray-cray was so out of character and unrealistic it made less sense than the sudden and complete lack of stratetic understanding during the final fight against the Whitewalkers. Then those psychologists are fake. I don't see how anyone that goes around and orders murder of thousands can be mentally healthy. And having no emotions when your brother is brutally murdered in front of you is not healthy. He was not her abuser. At worst he hit her a few times when she was younger (something that happens to many many young children all over the world from their parents as it still is considered normal in most of the world to punish children with physical punishment) but at same time he kept her alive and fed and protected her. Anyone that tells me that it is OK to have your family murdered because they hit you once and then went a bit crazy while drunk needs to have their head checked out. There are many ways to solve that situation without needing to kill him (like banishment).
They were from major websites. One of the articles was a peer-reviewed article and psychologist is a protected title so I'm partial to them being legit, the one that tried to use positive-psychology to analyse her since by DSM-5 she was perfectly healthy was the peer-reviewed iirc. They were written during the earlier seasons (I believe 4) and I would assume the books as well? If they had been written during the later/new seasons it would probably have been an entirely different story.
The world of GoT is more similar to the medievil times than our modern so ordering the death of your enemies during war despite their surrender (historically it have happend many times in Europe) I wouldn't necessarily call a sign of a mental disorder. Just like how Ned execute a terrified kid, tradition and norm.
If we really had to throw a diagnosis at Dany my armchair Ph.D layman psychology guess would be borderline personality disorder. Would fit her behaviour, mannerism and childhood trauma is considered a contributing factor. I thought it was some very interesting articles, especially in hindsight, since basically everyone else had some sort of disorder according to professionals. Some where quite surprising Cersei was the only character they would consider having an anti-social personality disorder (sociopath), Joffrey and Ramsay "only" had a sadistic personality disorder and Tyrion were suffering with depression.
For what it's worth getting a mental diagonsis is not an exact science and is largely based on how many symptons they can check off based on lengthy sessions.
|
Viserys is implied to have attacked her regularly (maybe sexually as well, but that's not needed) ("waking the dragon"), he sold her as a sex slave with the words of (paraphrased) "i would let the whole khalasaar and their horses fuck you if that gives me an army", he threatens the baby before he gets killed there as well.
In the moment she doesn't really feel anything for him, but later on she still names one of her dragons after him.
These psychological analyses are interesting for sure, but maybe also a little bit too theoretical right. Arguing on the scientific basis has its merits, but GRRM is no psychologist and for the narrative alone it imo makes more sense to argue on that lvl. What we have seen of Dany is a person who goes against social norms to free other people from their chains, at first it's due to her empathy, later on it might be a sense of god complex/ extreme narcissism/entitlement.
She has friends and lovers she cares about as well.
I just don't see the usual statement of "having no empathy", not at all. But yeah we already went through all of this, i guess we cannot really agree on the show's depiction/development of this plot point (killing civilians for no reason)
|
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
On May 28 2019 22:06 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 19:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
I think it’s an implication that he was pretty routinely sexually abusive, I preferred it when GoT hinted but didn’t show.
She did protect him as well initially so there’s that.
Viserys deserves to die as much as almost any character in GoT because he’s a terrible person for one, but he’s also a complete dumbass who doesn’t realise what situation he’s in. Dangerous combo in that environment of Dothraki night is right culture How is he a terrible person? He did nothing by the time he died. He killed nobody, he raped nobody. He conquered nobody. Your stance is that everyone that does not hold your values is a terrible person and needs to die? Really? EDIT: Because I didn't see any reason for him to die. There is barely a reason for that guy from ep 1 that Ned beheads to die. And he did more wrong for the society at large than Viserys did. And I think Ned felt more bad about him dying than Dany did for her own brother.
How do you get to that? He never got the chance to do anything as he was killed off quite quickly. And he probably did rape Dany anyway. Not to mention he kind of talked of conquering for his birthright, agreed to have his sister married off to Drogo to help facilitate that exact goal etc.
He ‘deserved’ his fate insofar as he was too dumb/arrogant to realise his place in the wider scheme of things, not necessarily because it was morally deserved, kind of like Bef meeting his end.
Viserys, along with Joffrey and Ramsay are the three that spring to my mind in terms of unambiguously bad, no real redeeming qualities characters.
There is quite a large reason for that person to die, deserting the Night’s Watch is a pretty big deal in universe, and Ned wasn’t exactly enthused at the task.
I don’t see any reason Dany should feel much for the end of Viserys given how he’s portrayed and how their relationship is portrayed throughout.
|
On May 28 2019 22:30 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 17:53 -Archangel- wrote:On May 28 2019 05:46 Jek wrote:
The discussion about Dany's mental health is quite interesting. I've read multiple articles written by psychologists diagnosing the major characters and they all actually considered Dany to be the most mentally healthy and strong character out of the cast, using the DSM-5 (standard) method she would fill no criteria for a diagnosis based on of what have been written or showed in the show.
They are a bit dated but for what it's worth were written while the show was mostly based on the books.
One article had the psychologist use positive-psychology to analyse her character and found Justice and Courage to be her top strengths. Which would explain how she's able to overcome all the stressors she's exposed to in her early years (courage) and her obsession with helping the innocent (justice). Another article mentioned she had an extreme level of self-perfectionism, which would explain why she always strive to make the perfect world as she starts to project it outwards (her supposed "megalomania" is actually her just trying to make a perfect world free of suffering in the most efficient way). She did show signs of actute stress disorder while she lived with her physical/sexual abusive brother and her relationship with Drogo was basically him raping her over and over. Her lack of feelings when her brother is executed was a "normal" response to finally have her tormentor suffer.
From what I could gather from their articles and in respect to classical litterature she was in a way the classical hero. Always striving for justice, is courageous to an extreme level and will do anything to protect the weak. Her rage in the climax should if anything have been directed towards the inner circle that betrayed her and the enemy soldiers and them only. She would have went to great lengths to save the innocent civilians.
I dont mind when writers for the sake of the story drop bombs. But the bomb of Dany going cray-cray was so out of character and unrealistic it made less sense than the sudden and complete lack of stratetic understanding during the final fight against the Whitewalkers. Then those psychologists are fake. I don't see how anyone that goes around and orders murder of thousands can be mentally healthy. And having no emotions when your brother is brutally murdered in front of you is not healthy. He was not her abuser. At worst he hit her a few times when she was younger (something that happens to many many young children all over the world from their parents as it still is considered normal in most of the world to punish children with physical punishment) but at same time he kept her alive and fed and protected her. Anyone that tells me that it is OK to have your family murdered because they hit you once and then went a bit crazy while drunk needs to have their head checked out. There are many ways to solve that situation without needing to kill him (like banishment). They were from major websites. One of the articles was a peer-reviewed article and psychologist is a protected title so I'm partial to them being legit, the one that tried to use positive-psychology to analyse her since by DSM-5 she was perfectly healthy was the peer-reviewed iirc. They were written during the earlier seasons (I believe 4) and I would assume the books as well? If they had been written during the later/new seasons it would probably have been an entirely different story. The world of GoT is more similar to the medievil times than our modern so ordering the death of your enemies during war despite their surrender (historically it have happend many times in Europe) I wouldn't necessarily call a sign of a mental disorder. Just like how Ned execute a terrified kid, tradition and norm. If we really had to throw a diagnosis at Dany my armchair Ph.D layman psychology guess would be borderline personality disorder. Would fit her behaviour, mannerism and childhood trauma is considered a contributing factor. I thought it was some very interesting articles, especially in hindsight, since basically everyone else had some sort of disorder according to professionals. Some where quite surprising Cersei was the only character they would consider having an anti-social personality disorder (sociopath), Joffrey and Ramsay "only" had a sadistic personality disorder and Tyrion were suffering with depression. For what it's worth getting a mental diagonsis is not an exact science and is largely based on how many symptons they can check off based on lengthy sessions.
Before last season of GoT, Tywin is the worst character in the show. But nobody talks about him..
He murders a whole noble house and everyone there for defying Lannisters. Her sacks King's Landing during Robert's rebellion. He orders Mountain to murder, rape and pillage Riverlands as soon as Tyrion is captured and he organizes Red Wedding where everyone is killed (including women and children). And that is without access to Dragons :D
I can only imagine what he would do with Dragons...
|
On May 28 2019 23:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2019 22:06 -Archangel- wrote:On May 28 2019 19:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
I think it’s an implication that he was pretty routinely sexually abusive, I preferred it when GoT hinted but didn’t show.
She did protect him as well initially so there’s that.
Viserys deserves to die as much as almost any character in GoT because he’s a terrible person for one, but he’s also a complete dumbass who doesn’t realise what situation he’s in. Dangerous combo in that environment of Dothraki night is right culture How is he a terrible person? He did nothing by the time he died. He killed nobody, he raped nobody. He conquered nobody. Your stance is that everyone that does not hold your values is a terrible person and needs to die? Really? EDIT: Because I didn't see any reason for him to die. There is barely a reason for that guy from ep 1 that Ned beheads to die. And he did more wrong for the society at large than Viserys did. And I think Ned felt more bad about him dying than Dany did for her own brother. How do you get to that? He never got the chance to do anything as he was killed off quite quickly. And he probably did rape Dany anyway. Not to mention he kind of talked of conquering for his birthright, agreed to have his sister married off to Drogo to help facilitate that exact goal etc. He ‘deserved’ his fate insofar as he was too dumb/arrogant to realise his place in the wider scheme of things, not necessarily because it was morally deserved, kind of like Bef meeting his end. Viserys, along with Joffrey and Ramsay are the three that spring to my mind in terms of unambiguously bad, no real redeeming qualities characters. There is quite a large reason for that person to die, deserting the Night’s Watch is a pretty big deal in universe, and Ned wasn’t exactly enthused at the task. I don’t see any reason Dany should feel much for the end of Viserys given how he’s portrayed and how their relationship is portrayed throughout.
No rape. Show is not clear on it but in the books if I remember well she is kept pure for him to get his army.
Waking the dragon part is about him hitting her when she would disobey him. The exact amount of physical punishment it not known. If she had meek enough personality when younger the threat alone would probably be enough. I never got the feel from both materials that we would hit her just for sake of hitting her (as he does not do it later, only when she goes against his wishes). He surely didn't show affection for her beyond keeping her safe and fed.
And I agree he talked a lot, but he never was shown to do anything really bad. Marrying sisters/daughters for political or military gain was completely normal for the time and place, I don't see that as anything bad. Otherwise Ned is also at fault for giving Sansa to Joffrey.
He did kind deserve his fate on a grand scale for being stupid and week in a world that does not suffer such people, but he still didn't deserve to die for what he did until that moment. At least not for what he did to Dany. She acted like he deserved it and that is the whole problem and my point.
Putting him in same group as Ramsay and Joffrey is laughable. Both had way more power than Viserys ever did and abused it completely with no real goal or purpose. Viserys had a purpose not that different than Dany (getting their father's throne back).
Also Tywin is a whole 2 levels above all 3 of them (Ramsay's father would be example of one level above them). Only difference is that he was also smart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
