Or maybe D&D are hypergeniuses who bamboozled a moron like me with their expert Dany arc.
Not the first, but I guess the last part is not false.
This is a video made after season 5 ended and they describe Daenerys back then how I describe her now:
They had enough foreshadowing done by season 5 to have her turn mad queen. GoT is a subtle show. If it was on the nose, like you demand, it would no longer be GoT and I wouldn't have liked it.
You either want it on the nose, or you think it didn't work because season 8 was rushed, or you simply cannot accept this ending over other endings because you are emotionally invested in it.
The ' I didn't like it only because it was badly written' is still unconvincing to me.
Your posts are pretty damn condescending, what other people haven’t noticed that GoT is subtle and they’re only annoyed because it’s not on the nose enough?
What foreshadowing there is isn’t particularly subtle at all anyway, Targaryans are either great or mad and the gods flip a coin?
Of course it’s part of the story, one can’t just take something out, if that stuff wasn’t there and we’re going off Dany purely as a character and what she does and her progression does the ending follow that?
And yes it would be difficult considering the time limitations, but even within the rushed conclusion it was still badly written IMO.
All they had to do was place her ambition in direct conflict with her ostensible morals, which they didn’t not just set up, they actively basically retconned an episode to not do it.
Based on what we’ve actually been shown front and centre Dany’s forces should be completely decimated, somehow they’re on a par though :S
Scorpions are introduced and are super OP, are patched immediately and are completely useless.
We have people talk about the compassion Daenerys showed as 'proof' she could never kill innocents. So yes, they missed all the hints. I agree they weren't that subtle and that I was surprised to hear people that they completely missed it. Which is actually an argument for keeping it as it is.
I don't think they had to show that her ambitions what she would do when her ambitions were in direct conflict with her morals. I think that would have been inferior foreshadowing. If you paid attention you would have known that there was no chance that Daenerys was going to pick morals over ambition. And by having that conflict only happen at the very last moment and turning it into a dramatic moment just gives a much better story then first having a scene that shows Daenerys will pick ambition over morals in some minor action. Because then all the tension is gone. The tension was full because the audience realized she would probably pick ambition over morals. If you remove that tension by directly showing what she would do in a small event, and then go to KL, the story falls flat on it's face because all the tension is gone because we already know 100% what is going to happen.
I don't know what you mean with 'an episode had to be retconned'.
The Scorpions are an example of bad writing. Daenerys burning KL is not.
there was no fkin tension, the camera panned to cersei , the dragon started flying towards her, the bells had rung, the only tension was us thinking she's about to kill cersei at last. it was just fucking terrible production (or screenplay or writing or design or whatever you want to call it) and if it hadn't been then i'm sure most of us wouldn't have a single fucking problem
I don’t think her incapable of killing innocents, what most people here have issue with is that her doing so for no reason is ridiculous.
There is not a conflict at all, she gets everything she wants and then kills everyone for, some reason.
They retconned episode 3 pretty hard, the Dothraki should basically all be dead based on what we saw, most of the Unsullied too based on that scene.
Nope there’s still plenty of them around for episode 5, for some reason. Which is just baffling because it lessens the impact of episode 3, and also lowers the stakes for episode 5.
Dany with shattered forces who might need to do something desperate to win, vs Dany’s ‘on par’ forces, plus a dragon who does something crazy after winning.
You keep saying stuff like ‘if you paid attention’ as if other people didn’t. You don’t have to 100% spell something out for it to retrospectively make sense.
There was zero tension in Jon killing her because her actions were so far beyond the pale, of course he’s going to kill her. Making her actions more grey or vaguely explicable and maybe that’s an actual dilemma that we don’t know which way it’s going to go.
They had enough foreshadowing done by season 5 to have her turn mad queen. GoT is a subtle show. If it was on the nose, like you demand, it would no longer be GoT and I wouldn't have liked it.
You either want it on the nose, or you think it didn't work because season 8 was rushed, or you simply cannot accept this ending over other endings because you are emotionally invested in it.
The ' I didn't like it only because it was badly written' is still unconvincing to me.
This is completely ridiculous, foreshadowing =/= character development. Character development =/= being on the nose. Something is on the nose when it is outright spelt out, in a not so nuanced way. A good example would be jon saying over and over again that dany is his queen and he doesn't want the throne. That is an on the nose way to make the audience know that he is on dany's side, which ultimately should make us care more when he kills her. Their dialogue scenes lack satisfaction because of this.
Now take this same thing, give it the same amount of screen time but write it differently, show us real affection between the two with substantial dialogue. It's less on the nose and more effective and actual character development.
Now you already basically said that you didn't want character development for dany, you want the "she is mad" explanation and it has to come as a surprise/shock. I already made clear why i think the first part makes the story less impactful and the 2nd part is no real problem either way. I'll still repeat it in a sentence or two. We imo need her to be a rational agent to feel any empathy and thus have a sense of tragedy in the climax of the story (when jon kills her). That doesn't work when she is given an easy way out and kills innocents which she never did before (you say she doesnt see them as such, but again, how in the world is that setup for the audience to make any form of sense?).
so lets say defeating the dead was an epic team struggle to achieve the ultimate goal of killing the night lord which takes the combined efforts of our favorite characters who die one after the other to cumulatively reach that goal (rather than random scenes of them looking like they're about to die but don't actually) tyrion and sansa get eaten in each others arms, i think this would be horrific warrior woman sacrifices herself to save jamie, which sets him off to "stop" cersei sam dies helping jon which spurs jon on i think theon should survive tbh, maybe get gets wrecked but survives jon is finally at the wraith king about to get fucked and arya comes in at the last moment, sure bran shows some hint of knowing what would happen which annoys someone
then they get to kings landing and get fucked up by euron and translator woman is captured with dany helpless to save her dany is distraut from being so helpless, having no army, she takes greyworm on her rampage and locks up jon (who is distraut about sansa's death and has seen too much death now). varys sets him free and convinces him he has to kill her (i see no reason why varys has to die). arya and the rock have already gone on ahead together like in the show (actually i don't really know what to do with them, i guess it's ok as is)
arya and the rock infiltrate kings landing as is. dany flames the city and greyworm's remaining force comes in following. jon (let free by varys) comes after and sees the destruction. arya and the rock fight rock's brother, whatever. jamie turns up and dies with cersei as is. jon turns up and meets dany in the throne room and kills her. arya shows up (rock can still be alive, doesn't need to die). arya can help distract the dragon (which can fuck up the iron throne at this point) and the 3 of them escape the tower.
whats left: armies are all fucked everyones dead except greyworm's small force which has fuck-all to do (maybe they show him sit down on a rock and look depressed coz everything is fucked and he lost his gf), varys who is outside the city, arya jon and wolf man who are fucked up but together and alive. the throne is fucked. jon is the heir to everything tho and the last scene is the 3 of them meeting varys outside the city and heading into the sunset after determining that they will resolve to unite the other houses now and move forward from this mess
bran: bran stays in the north with theon after winterfell battle. ultimately his destiny was to lure and help slay the knight king after all, and lets jon go on to claim the throne
why this all works: notably the conflict of interest is displayed fully between jon and dany, as jon gets the balls to stand up to dany and try to make her back down from torching KL in desperation, because he's seen too much death now with the loss of everyone at winterfell including his sister. he's had fucking enough and takes a hard stand, dany similarly takes a hard stand because it's the only way for her to get the throne now.
once jon reaches dany in the throne room: several things could happen. here's one idea: dany and jon argue again and there can be no way to settle it (jon is the rightful heir, after all, and he can't accept what dany has done to the city after walking through it, and dany is on edge as fuck). dany commands the dragon to kill jon, but it refuses because he's targareon or something. then jon knifes dany and escapes from the dragon with arya and the rock helping to distract it etc.
Then you just fundamentally disagree with the story premise, set up by GRRM. Not the poor writing of d&d. That d&d treated things poorly is obvious, but Daenerys is actually the counter-example. And part of the poor writing of d&d is their conscious decision to sacrifice consistency and continuity for dramatic effect.
character development != good writing
If every character in your story has a predictable arch to become a better version of yourself, then that is boring. GRRM decides he has plenty of characters with those types of archs. So he put in Daenerys as a 'troll character'. For most characters, we think they are bad and slowly learn they are a lot more grey. Some people think this must then resolve into a redemption arch, which is false. But Daenerys was from season 1 supposed to be the opposite. A character where we as the audience root for because the writing and cinematics blindside us to what is actually going on. And then the twist is that she turns out to be one of the biggest villains in the story.
If you say you don't like that, you have a fundamental disagreement with GRRM. Not an issue with d&d lack of writing ability.
Daenerys is a mad character. So she does not do the things she does for rational reasons. You realize that in reality almost no one is a rational actor? And the story is able to pull this off through what GRRM calls 'foreshadowing'. Everyone was asking themselves "Will Daenerys burn down KL" while the bells were ringing. The story established that she has traits of madness and delusion and that she is capable of great cruelty. It was not 'on the nose' because all her cruel acts were ambiguous or dependable in some way. And now she does something that is not defendable.
I think having a character turn mad and commit such cruelty in a plot twist that is fully believable, which you cannot even argue that it wasn't, is an example of good story writing. and considering all the other things in the show, like scorpions being just as powerful as the plot requires them to be, Daenerys turning evil is one of the high points in terms of writing in season 8.
The only doubt I ever had was if d&d would have retconned GRRMs ending for Daenerys. So yes, I was pleasantly surprised they did not give the story a 'fake fanfic ending'. So I am surprised that people are mad about this, when other aspects of the story have become so poor and while the story was so rushed because d&d in their minds already checked out of GoT.
Which is why I asked people to give a concrete example of a scene to be added. And then people start rambling about everything wrong with the show.
Suddenly giving Daenerys empathy or suddenly making her a rational agent would be out-of-character for her. So if you want Daenerys to be a different type of person just because your plot requires her, then you make her burn KL in a rational calculated way, and then you have her show genuine empathy and regret at the end. Both things she has never shown before.
If you didn't see the Daenerys plot twist coming at all, or if you think she was a compassionate person incapable of cruelty you need to ask yourself this question: are you able to identify sociopaths in your everyday life?
On May 27 2019 00:00 FFGenerations wrote: ok i rewrote the last season for you:
I am not interested in reading a fanfic ending. And certainly not one written by someone who is incapable of using punctuation. And I actually need a very good reason to take seriously any post, no matter how short, made by someone who has some strange obsession to use the word 'cuck'.
On May 27 2019 00:15 FFGenerations wrote: no1 was thinking 'will dany burn down KL' when the bells were ringing. that's the whole fkin problem
read my previous post if you wanna see my alternate version of s8 its VERY well written
I see you just added this. All I can say is "Wow!".
I am debating The_Red_Viper and Wombat_NI because I can understand their posts and because they have interesting things to say. No idea why you think you are entitled to any attention.
On May 27 2019 00:15 FFGenerations wrote: no1 was thinking 'will dany burn down KL' when the bells were ringing. that's the whole fkin problem
read my previous post if you wanna see my alternate version of s8 its VERY well written
Let me address just this one point, as others seem to make it as well. You say 'no1[sic]', which is clearly false.
If you watch this video, you see how ordinary average people reacted to that scene when they first saw it.
People say things like: "Something is wrong." "She is not done yet." "What is she going to do." "No, don't do it." "They surrendered." "She is going to burn them." "Burn 'em." "Is this the mad queen moment." "Don't worry, she is going straight for the keep, it is fine."
After the bells started ringing but before she even took off with her dragon. And some before they even showed her face crying.
("As well as the few people cheering or clapping because they wanted her to go mad queen as they had been waiting for that for several seasons.")
Which is actually why they kept cutting between Daenerys, Cersei, and the red keep. Because if they didn't, it was clear she was not only going to keep attacking, but that she isn't even going for Cersei. And there would be less tension.
People can claim all they want that they think they didn't feel tension. But either they are not being truthful, or they are very unusual exceptions. The video I showed before shows that it was foreshadowed enough by season 5 (in scenes I suspect most people completely forgot about). And GRRM says he uses that as a writing technique, so don't attack me for using it. And this video shows that the specific scene worked. It was not unexpected and it was tense. So the scene got exactly the intended response.
On May 27 2019 00:13 Rasalased wrote: Then you just fundamentally disagree with the story premise, set up by GRRM. Not the poor writing of d&d. That d&d treated things poorly is obvious, but Daenerys is actually the counter-example. And part of the poor writing of d&d is their conscious decision to sacrifice consistency and continuity for dramatic effect.
character development != good writing
If every character in your story has a predictable arch to become a better version of yourself, then that is boring. GRRM decides he has plenty of characters with those types of archs. So he put in Daenerys as a 'troll character'. For most characters, we think they are bad and slowly learn they are a lot more grey. Some people think this must then resolve into a redemption arch, which is false. But Daenerys was from season 1 supposed to be the opposite. A character where we as the audience root for because the writing and cinematics blindside us to what is actually going on. And then the twist is that she turns out to be one of the biggest villains in the story.
If you say you don't like that, you have a fundamental disagreement with GRRM. Not an issue with d&d lack of writing ability.
Daenerys is a mad character. So she does not do the things she does for rational reasons. You realize that in reality almost no one is a rational actor? And the story is able to pull this off through what GRRM calls 'foreshadowing'. Everyone was asking themselves "Will Daenerys burn down KL" while the bells were ringing. The story established that she has traits of madness and delusion and that she is capable of great cruelty. It was not 'on the nose' because all her cruel acts were ambiguous or dependable in some way. And now she does something that is not defendable.
I think having a character turn mad and commit such cruelty in a plot twist that is fully believable, which you cannot even argue that it wasn't, is an example of good story writing. and considering all the other things in the show, like scorpions being just as powerful as the plot requires them to be, Daenerys turning evil is one of the high points in terms of writing in season 8.
The only doubt I ever had was if d&d would have retconned GRRMs ending for Daenerys. So yes, I was pleasantly surprised they did not give the story a 'fake fanfic ending'. So I am surprised that people are mad about this, when other aspects of the story have become so poor and while the story was so rushed because d&d in their minds already checked out of GoT.
Which is why I asked people to give a concrete example of a scene to be added. And then people start rambling about everything wrong with the show.
Suddenly giving Daenerys empathy or suddenly making her a rational agent would be out-of-character for her. So if you want Daenerys to be a different type of person just because your plot requires her, then you make her burn KL in a rational calculated way, and then you have her show genuine empathy and regret at the end. Both things she has never shown before.
If you didn't see the Daenerys plot twist coming at all, or if you think she was a compassionate person incapable of cruelty you need to ask yourself this question: are you able to identify sociopaths in your everyday life?
Character development doesn't have to be positive, if that is your understanding of it then it is flawed to begin with. Daenery's becoming a person who commits actions of great cruelty isn't the problem, it was fairly clear from the arguments presented so far that this was never the angle i criticized it on. A rational agent insofar that we can understand what is going on in her mind, we would still disagree with it but there would be more than "hey she is kinda mad". As i already said, the in universe saying of "gods throw a coin" is about the targaryen's line having cruel and benevolent rulers on an almost 50:50 scale. It doesn't have to be literal "madness" (however we would define that in the first place) It's not about her showing regret, it is about us havign empathy for her, her downfall has to be sad for the audience, her death has to mean something for the audience. It is the climax of the whole series. Saying that dany has never shown empathy is just outright wrong, she was never concipated as a sociopath/psychopath.
On May 27 2019 00:13 Rasalased wrote: Then you just fundamentally disagree with the story premise, set up by GRRM. Not the poor writing of d&d. That d&d treated things poorly is obvious, but Daenerys is actually the counter-example. And part of the poor writing of d&d is their conscious decision to sacrifice consistency and continuity for dramatic effect.
character development != good writing
If every character in your story has a predictable arch to become a better version of yourself, then that is boring. GRRM decides he has plenty of characters with those types of archs. So he put in Daenerys as a 'troll character'. For most characters, we think they are bad and slowly learn they are a lot more grey. Some people think this must then resolve into a redemption arch, which is false. But Daenerys was from season 1 supposed to be the opposite. A character where we as the audience root for because the writing and cinematics blindside us to what is actually going on. And then the twist is that she turns out to be one of the biggest villains in the story.
If you say you don't like that, you have a fundamental disagreement with GRRM. Not an issue with d&d lack of writing ability.
Daenerys is a mad character. So she does not do the things she does for rational reasons. You realize that in reality almost no one is a rational actor? And the story is able to pull this off through what GRRM calls 'foreshadowing'. Everyone was asking themselves "Will Daenerys burn down KL" while the bells were ringing. The story established that she has traits of madness and delusion and that she is capable of great cruelty. It was not 'on the nose' because all her cruel acts were ambiguous or dependable in some way. And now she does something that is not defendable.
I think having a character turn mad and commit such cruelty in a plot twist that is fully believable, which you cannot even argue that it wasn't, is an example of good story writing. and considering all the other things in the show, like scorpions being just as powerful as the plot requires them to be, Daenerys turning evil is one of the high points in terms of writing in season 8.
The only doubt I ever had was if d&d would have retconned GRRMs ending for Daenerys. So yes, I was pleasantly surprised they did not give the story a 'fake fanfic ending'. So I am surprised that people are mad about this, when other aspects of the story have become so poor and while the story was so rushed because d&d in their minds already checked out of GoT.
Which is why I asked people to give a concrete example of a scene to be added. And then people start rambling about everything wrong with the show.
Suddenly giving Daenerys empathy or suddenly making her a rational agent would be out-of-character for her. So if you want Daenerys to be a different type of person just because your plot requires her, then you make her burn KL in a rational calculated way, and then you have her show genuine empathy and regret at the end. Both things she has never shown before.
If you didn't see the Daenerys plot twist coming at all, or if you think she was a compassionate person incapable of cruelty you need to ask yourself this question: are you able to identify sociopaths in your everyday life?
Character development doesn't have to be positive, if that is your understanding of it then it is flawed to begin with. Daenery's becoming a person who commits actions of great cruelty isn't the problem, it was fairly clear from the arguments presented so far that this was never the angle i criticized it on. A rational agent insofar that we can understand what is going on in her mind, we would still disagree with it but there would be more than "hey she is kinda mad". As i already said, the in universe saying of "gods throw a coin" is about the targaryen's line having cruel and benevolent rulers on an almost 50:50 scale. It doesn't have to be literal "madness" (however we would define that in the first place) It's not about her showing regret, it is about us havign empathy for her, her downfall has to be sad for the audience, her death has to mean something for the audience. It is the climax of the whole series. Saying that dany has never shown empathy is just outright wrong, she was never concipated as a sociopath/psychopath.
As someone who is pretty far through a full rewatch, 100% agree. She recoils at various points over how the Dothraki so things, very early on for example.
And yeah I agree wholeheartedly, at least in this thread I don’t see many people who are arguing from a position of not seeing it coming or being too emotionally invested in her to want her not to turn bad.
You can’t have it both ways, either your character is a complete sociopath or they’re not, if they aren’t and are a rational actor in that domain then you have to give them a reason to do something horrific.
Which is bloody easy to do even in this train wreck of a last stretch, Dany has to choose between burning King’s Landing, or not being Queen, and chooses being Queen.
Ok, then having a major character in your story that is just 'mad' is a good thing or not is a matter of artistic taste. Not good or bad writing. The line about a coin being thrown is straight pulled from GRRM's books. And we cannot call this season 'badly written' and then point to a think that GRRM wrote.
I said Daenerys never showed genuine empathy. And yes, she was portrayed as ambiguously being a sociopath from the very start. And Daenerys follows quite similarly the arch of her father. I kind of see the point about someone either slipping into madness gradually or someone who is just double-faced and finally chooses their true colors. But why can't a story be good when a character in said story is somewhere in between? I really think if this is truly the point then that is a bit nitpicky. Especially when they have scenes that d&d say about "Daenerys kind of forgot about the Euron's Iron Fleet" because that basically means "We kind of forgot" and "Don't think anymore about the Lord of Light or the Night King and just enjoy the story that is to come".
Or contrived plot where there are just as many Dothraki as needed to make the scene most dramatic. That is sloppy writing. Not the Daenerys or Jaime archs.
What about Bran? How can the story convince us that he has to be king because 'he has the most interesting story' when in fact he has the worst story of any character on the entire show?
What about "X happens offscreen" trick they keep pulling just to avoid a dialogue scene? Bran with Tyrion? Jon telling Arya and Sansa? Jaime getting captures off-screen. Jon turning himself in and admitting to killing Daenerys. etc etc That is the things you should complain about. Not the main thing the show actually got right. Or other strange mistakes like Grey Worm killing Lannister soldiers in one scene, and then Jon walks all the way up the stairs, only to meet Grey Worm again at the top of the stairs. Or plot holes like Tyrion not telling anyone about the secret passage into KL but letting Jaime go to use it to escape with Cersei and that not being portrayed as treason. Those are examples of bad writing. And there are many more. Either fundamental plot holes, or very disconcerting (for the suspension of disbelief) writing mistakes, usually related to continuity or consistency.
Things like complaining about how Daenerys turned mad queen are matters of taste. Not matters of quality. The writers deciding that they don't want the audience to have sympathy with Daenerys as she comes to a tragic end is definitely a matter of taste.
On May 27 2019 00:13 Rasalased wrote: Then you just fundamentally disagree with the story premise, set up by GRRM. Not the poor writing of d&d. That d&d treated things poorly is obvious, but Daenerys is actually the counter-example. And part of the poor writing of d&d is their conscious decision to sacrifice consistency and continuity for dramatic effect.
character development != good writing
If every character in your story has a predictable arch to become a better version of yourself, then that is boring. GRRM decides he has plenty of characters with those types of archs. So he put in Daenerys as a 'troll character'. For most characters, we think they are bad and slowly learn they are a lot more grey. Some people think this must then resolve into a redemption arch, which is false. But Daenerys was from season 1 supposed to be the opposite. A character where we as the audience root for because the writing and cinematics blindside us to what is actually going on. And then the twist is that she turns out to be one of the biggest villains in the story.
If you say you don't like that, you have a fundamental disagreement with GRRM. Not an issue with d&d lack of writing ability.
Daenerys is a mad character. So she does not do the things she does for rational reasons. You realize that in reality almost no one is a rational actor? And the story is able to pull this off through what GRRM calls 'foreshadowing'. Everyone was asking themselves "Will Daenerys burn down KL" while the bells were ringing. The story established that she has traits of madness and delusion and that she is capable of great cruelty. It was not 'on the nose' because all her cruel acts were ambiguous or dependable in some way. And now she does something that is not defendable.
I think having a character turn mad and commit such cruelty in a plot twist that is fully believable, which you cannot even argue that it wasn't, is an example of good story writing. and considering all the other things in the show, like scorpions being just as powerful as the plot requires them to be, Daenerys turning evil is one of the high points in terms of writing in season 8.
The only doubt I ever had was if d&d would have retconned GRRMs ending for Daenerys. So yes, I was pleasantly surprised they did not give the story a 'fake fanfic ending'. So I am surprised that people are mad about this, when other aspects of the story have become so poor and while the story was so rushed because d&d in their minds already checked out of GoT.
Which is why I asked people to give a concrete example of a scene to be added. And then people start rambling about everything wrong with the show.
Suddenly giving Daenerys empathy or suddenly making her a rational agent would be out-of-character for her. So if you want Daenerys to be a different type of person just because your plot requires her, then you make her burn KL in a rational calculated way, and then you have her show genuine empathy and regret at the end. Both things she has never shown before.
If you didn't see the Daenerys plot twist coming at all, or if you think she was a compassionate person incapable of cruelty you need to ask yourself this question: are you able to identify sociopaths in your everyday life?
Character development doesn't have to be positive, if that is your understanding of it then it is flawed to begin with. Daenery's becoming a person who commits actions of great cruelty isn't the problem, it was fairly clear from the arguments presented so far that this was never the angle i criticized it on. A rational agent insofar that we can understand what is going on in her mind, we would still disagree with it but there would be more than "hey she is kinda mad". As i already said, the in universe saying of "gods throw a coin" is about the targaryen's line having cruel and benevolent rulers on an almost 50:50 scale. It doesn't have to be literal "madness" (however we would define that in the first place) It's not about her showing regret, it is about us havign empathy for her, her downfall has to be sad for the audience, her death has to mean something for the audience. It is the climax of the whole series. Saying that dany has never shown empathy is just outright wrong, she was never concipated as a sociopath/psychopath.
Which is bloody easy to do even in this train wreck of a last stretch, Dany has to choose between burning King’s Landing, or not being Queen, and chooses being Queen.
Yeah it would have been easy, for her to make the choice of burning down parts of kingslanding due to there not being any other easy way out. But there was, she had already won. Which makes this all so problematic and hamfisted, she chose to be cruel for no reason whatsoever, "she went mad", .
Aegon Targaryan also wend mad. You also have a problem with that? Was that bad writing? Or is it ok there because he is a background character and not a main character we are arguable supposed to be able to relate to?
EPT
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