Having Dany go cartoon evil is just as jarring as if they’d made Jon superman with no flaws who kills the Night King all by himself and is Mr Destiny all of a sudden.
The only difference is that it’s ‘shocking’ in this instance to make Dany do that.
One thing that I struggle with is... well it's not cartoon evil. Or more accurately we have plenty of evidence of that sort of cartoon evil happening in real life by "the good guys". Not to get too political or put merit into one side or the other and make a debate, but if you read into criticism of the treatment of Japan towards the end of WW2 (including the nuclear weapon usage) the situation presented by the critics really isn't *that* different from what the show gave us in Dany's actions.
It’s pretty damn different though, it’s basically the US nuking Japan after they’d already surrendered.
I do consider dragons the nukes of GoT anyway, they basically are in a balance of power sense.
If Dany’s forces are extremely depleted, which they absolutely should bloody be after the Long Night, then it could maybe become a choice between nuking the city, or not being Queen.
It’s such a horrible botch job because I don’t understand why they did it this way.
Impact of episode 3 is way less than it should have been, the whole season is bloody confusing.
As a viewer I was (in the negative sense) surprised to find out that post episode 3 Dany’s forces were somehow still on a par with Cersei’s, despite everything we’d been shown.
Makes episode 3 less impactful in retrospect and in how it leads into episode 5.
All this means nothing if you cannot specifically say what scenes the writers needed to add to make her go 'proper evil' and burn KL instead of 'cartoon evil' and burn down KL. I have almost no one tell me how.
This in contrast with a dozen other things wrong with the writing that can be easily fixed. That's the point. Either something is badly written, and it can be easily fixed with adding a scene. Or it is a fundamental disagreement with the artistic decision of the artist. And all people that complain about her burning KL, I have to put in the latter category.
Where the writing of GoT failed was with the raiding party beyond the wall to capture a live wright in season 6. And I think the Jon and Daenerys romance was not convincing. But I don't know if that is just bad luck with the chemistry between the actors, or bad writing, or it being rushed. Things being rushed is an additional constraint. If you are a good writer, you can fix things being rushed up to some extend.
And then the NK plot.
And then the whole thing with Bran and him being king.
Those things are what is wrong with the writing, not Daenerys going evil mad queen style, because that was in the cards always.
BTW, about people with high moral values completely destroying cities. It is today being reported that 80% of Raqqa was destroyed by western air strikes with thousands of civilians having been killed. So even in the present day, countries that have high morals are ok with destroying entire cities of their enemies just because they have to defeat the enemy.
As a viewer I was (in the negative sense) surprised to find out that post episode 3 Dany’s forces were somehow still on a par with Cersei’s, despite everything we’d been shown.
Makes episode 3 less impactful in retrospect and in how it leads into episode 5.
This may be one of my biggest complaints of the season. Because it took the most emotional and gut wrenching part of the season that I loved and just... threw it out. Ignoring the resolution of the Night King Arc, after episode three I was really just overwhelmed by the losses suffered. Even if our named characters made it out mostly intact, the few that died did so in really spectacular ways and the losses seemed so heavy but sold so well that it just felt like such a bittersweet victory.
But instead of leaning into that, and using it as the basis for Dany's desperation and Sansa's plotting against Dany they just magically regenerated a massive army, killed a chunk of it off again in the ocean, and regenerated it again. It robbed that story beat from its impact and turned one of my favorite parts of the season into meaningless jank.
Along with the above of what was needed for Dany to go proper evil... is this. If the forces were decimated after episode 3, and not regenerating to fit the plot (0 Dothraki, only dozens of Unsulled at most, very few Northmen/Vale knights) it puts Dany's power more into her Dragons. Then there's a better flow of losing Rhaegal -> Dany's desperate show of force. She now basically *has* to prove that her Drogon is fear incarnate itself or she has no grip on the realm as the true loyalist forces (unsullied & dothraki) are not nearly numerous enough to hold the realm by themselves. She has to show that one dragon is still capable of more than enough destruction to back her claim to the throne.
She could also show more emotion at losing the Dothraki if they didn't come back to life. In this world she's lead a force across the sea and wiped out almost a whole culture of people (for even one as problematic as the Dothraki that's still major/sad). And like... that's also interesting beat for the Dothraki who followed the khal of khals across the poisoned sea and tried to fight death itself.
On May 24 2019 04:15 Rasalased wrote: All this means nothing if you cannot specifically say what scenes the writers needed to add to make her go 'proper evil' and burn KL instead of 'cartoon evil' and burn down KL. I have almost no one tell me how.
This in contrast with a dozen other things wrong with the writing that can be easily fixed. That's the point. Either something is badly written, and it can be easily fixed with adding a scene. Or it is a fundamental disagreement with the artistic decision of the artist. And all people that complain about her burning KL, I have to put in the latter category.
Where the writing of GoT failed was with the raiding party beyond the wall to capture a live wright in season 6. And I think the Jon and Daenerys romance was not convincing. But I don't know if that is just bad luck with the chemistry between the actors, or bad writing, or it being rushed. Things being rushed is an additional constraint. If you are a good writer, you can fix things being rushed up to some extend.
And then the NK plot.
And then the whole thing with Bran and him being king.
Those things are what is wrong with the writing, not Daenerys going evil mad queen style, because that was in the cards always.
BTW, about people with high moral values completely destroying cities. It is today being reported that 80% of Raqqa was destroyed by western air strikes with thousands of civilians having been killed. So even in the present day, countries that have high morals are ok with destroying entire cities of their enemies just because they have to defeat the enemy.
Why do you expect people to give you specific scenes? The whole season needs a rewrite from start to finish, plus maybe another season being needed entirely. To fix this monstrosity it is not as simple as saying 'if we had a scene where such and such was said'
As a viewer I was (in the negative sense) surprised to find out that post episode 3 Dany’s forces were somehow still on a par with Cersei’s, despite everything we’d been shown.
Makes episode 3 less impactful in retrospect and in how it leads into episode 5.
This may be one of my biggest complaints of the season. Because it took the most emotional and gut wrenching part of the season that I loved and just... threw it out. Ignoring the resolution of the Night King Arc, after episode three I was really just overwhelmed by the losses suffered. Even if our named characters made it out mostly intact, the few that died did so in really spectacular ways and the losses seemed so heavy but sold so well that it just felt like such a bittersweet victory.
But instead of leaning into that, and using it as the basis for Dany's desperation and Sansa's plotting against Dany they just magically regenerated a massive army, killed a chunk of it off again in the ocean, and regenerated it again. It robbed that story beat from its impact and turned one of my favorite parts of the season into meaningless jank.
Along with the above of what was needed for Dany to go proper evil... is this. If the forces were decimated after episode 3, and not regenerating to fit the plot (0 Dothraki, only dozens of Unsulled at most, very few Northmen/Vale knights) it puts Dany's power more into her Dragons. Then there's a better flow of losing Rhaegal -> Dany's desperate show of force. She now basically *has* to prove that her Drogon is fear incarnate itself or she has no grip on the realm as the true loyalist forces (unsullied & dothraki) are not nearly numerous enough to hold the realm by themselves. She has to show that one dragon is still capable of more than enough destruction to back her claim to the throne.
She could also show more emotion at losing the Dothraki if they didn't come back to life. In this world she's lead a force across the sea and wiped out almost a whole culture of people (for even one as problematic as the Dothraki that's still major/sad). And like... that's also interesting beat for the Dothraki who followed the khal of khals across the poisoned sea and tried to fight death itself.
Exactly, it’s just terrible.
Regenerating army makes both episode 3 way less impactful, and it also lowers the stakes for episode 5 that would lead into Dany going batshit.
It actually annoys me way more than not enough ‘big’ characters dying in the Long Night
I’m actually OK without not killing x quota of big names, my issues there are 100% do not tease it with shots that people couldn’t possibly survive, and then have them not matte .
Likewise we see the Dothraki charge wiped out, then they’re sorta OK, likewise the Unsullied.
It’s all cake and eating it stuff and is a total mess that destroys immersion in what we’ve already seen and made future stuff implausible in one stroke.
Scenario 89 that is better than what we got - Dany has fuck all forces after episode 3, so is reliant on the Northerners, maybe they themselves turn when she’s being unreasonable, maybe Sansa plays a card, if not necessarily to outright not honour their commitments, maybe to put their foot down that the men need rest.
Dany has no reason to go fucking mental because she’s not actually in a desperate place at all.
There is a point between the end of the Long Night and the reveal of the Scorpion 2.0 where Dany has equivalent standard forces to Cersei and two dragons, and her forces have all actually seen those dragons in action.
Why are the stakes so high here? It’s like when an SC caster is hyping up a game because it’s their job, but if you know the game and have been paying attention you know there are no real stakes whatsoever
But I still have not seen any concrete examples of which scenes needed to be added to make Daenerys do the following: -Have her burn down KL completely -Have it be sudden and shocking -Have it be an act of insanity, not rational calculated evil
That is a flawed premise in the first place. Point 1 and 3 are not required, i'd even say that point 3 itself is something one shouldn't want to do in any circumstance. Going "hey she is mad" completely removes any empathy we could have for her, it removes the impact when jon has to kill her. The big problem with the show's depiction is that there was an easy alternative for her, the city surrendered, there was no need to be this cruel on any level. If it didn't, there would at least be some form of motivation to burn down parts of the city and sadly innocent people with it, this dilemma is completely gone though.
A big part of the story is that people can do both morally good and morally bad things and that some acts might be ambigious depending on what angle we look at it. Pulling the "mad" card is an easy way out, it removes any form of ambiguity or motivation to do something "bad" , it is weak storytelling on that basis alone.
Now if you want her to become mentally unstable, isolated from everyone and thus more prone to questionable choices, sure you can do that. But that also needs more buildup, scenes where we can actually feel her losses, her sitting alone contemplating what happened to her, some talk with jon which deals with her fears, dreams, losses. The show tried a little, but ultimately it made her seem powerhungry, not really mentally weak due to what happened.
About point 2, well it would be shocking simply by virtue of being the first time she doesn't care about innocents (now we can talk about the slavemasters again who might have been innocent for a certain crime, but we surely agree that there is a big difference there?)
But if you discard 1 then all the foreshadowing about KL burning/being destroyed/being sacked becomes meaningless. And all these scenes then no longer connect with that Daenerys will do.
And if you discard 3 then talk about Targaryans being prone to madness also no longer work and Daenerys Machiavellian evil becomes the same type of evil that Tywin or Cersei employ and then a sudden switch cannot be explained. Because that process requires a gradual erosion of your own morals. This is distinct from you having your morals but applying them in a delusional way. And you didn't reject point 2.
People keep talking about the people in KL as 'innocents', but I don't think they are 'innocent' under her definition.
I guess the problem is that we have no idea ourselves what goes wrong in people that suddenly commit acts of great evil.
How can 'pulling the mad' card be an easy way out when the story is filled with nuanced evil and established that there are also cases of 'mad evil'? Her going evil the way she did just added a brand new type of how people go evil in the real world to the story. I don't get how that is bad.
And we had a scene where she was standing in the throne room alone and Tyrion tried to talk to her. And she tells Tyrion that she thinks Jon betrayed her. And then she doubled down on Jon having betrayed her.
Then she talks with Jon and Jon literally shows to her that he has no clue about any of it because he is a 85 IQ fool. And then she asks him if he would reject her, and he does.
Then there is a scene where Tyrion says "thousands of children will die." and Daenerys says she doesn't care and that it is Cersei's fault and that they will show no mercy to anyone in KL.
So you reject the premises that cannot be rejected without destroying story continuety and you offer only vague scene ideas that describe scenes that were already in the show.
The problem is the episodes feeling rushed in general with an unwillingness to accept that Daenerys turned evil. But if d&d had made Daenerys move to evil less strong and more nuanced, they would also have been harshly criticized that because it goes against the foreshadowing and against the gritty nature of the show.
Well no, she would still destroy parts of it, maybe the red keep, etc. It wouldn't automatically become inconsistent with setup before. But this wasn't the core point anyway, just a thought to somewhat lessen the gap in believable actions.
A sudden switch is exactly what we don't want, the in universe talk about madness and there being a 50:50 chance is more about cruel vs benevolent leaders in the targaryen line. What we would want is daenerys acting in ways we still can understand where they came from, there needs to be empathy left when jon kills her, it should be tragic and the climax of the whole series. Tbf though, this could still work if we only cared about jon and their relationship, but it obviously would be way stronger if dany was still in the realm of some reason. She is a main character since the first episode afterall. I didn't reject the 2nd point because i think it would still be shocking if it was better setup, having the potential to do something is quite different from it happening.
People keep talking about them being innocent because they are and the narrative didn't make a good enough case for her to believe otherwise. Her commiting acts of great evil is the outcome which should happen, but it needs to be motivated clearly, we would still mostly disagree with her acts that way, but we could understand why it happens. That is the moral ambiguity GoT needs, that is where the greatness is oftentimes coming from.
Cases of "mad evil" usually go with people who lack empathy, who are psychopathic in nature. Dany clearly isn't that. That is the problem. The narrative around her has to be nuanced due to that, it needs to be a fall from grace, gradually enough to be believable. The climax of the series is jon killing her, there needs to be gravitas in that scene, we should be sad that jon had to do it, that dany fell victim to some of her "bad" traits, there should be tragedy. Her progression isn't the only problem there, another huge one is that jon and dany's relationship isn't believable for a single second, there never was any chemistry, ultimately this climax falls extremely flat.
I agree that the show tried, but none of these scenes have any emotional power, there isn't enough progression in them, the dialogue isn't good enough to make us believe. "You are my queen, i don't want it" isn't good enough, it isn't substantial, there is no talk about deep feelings where they break down and offer their existential fears, etc. I am sorry that i am not presenting better solutions, giving you a real scene of written dialogue which would be better, i am no writer after all. Just a tangential example though, we are to believe that dany had a emotional connection to missandei, but how many scenes in the show actually set this up? When did they interact with each other on a friendship basis, not missandei doing her job. Maybe i am not remembering it well enough, i didn't rewatch the series before season 8, but i don't really remember much of that. Which is a problem, because it is used as one piece of dany's emotional isolation.
You can say that people would always be angry, and i agree that there is basically nothing one can do to make absolutely everyone happy. But there are endings which are well liked, there are characters who went from victim to villain protagonist (and then somewhat reedemed themselves) in walter white. BB is seen as one of the best shows ever with a satisfying ending, GoT could have been there but they messed up and dany's part didn't help to form a more positive outlook on it.
Just a tangential example though, we are to believe that dany had a emotional connection to missandei, but how many scenes in the show actually set this up? When did they interact with each other on a friendship basis, not missandei doing her job. Maybe i am not remembering it well enough, i didn't rewatch the series before season 8, but i don't really remember much of that. Which is a problem, because it is used as one piece of dany's emotional isolation.
I've been rewatching and so far there's only a small number of exchanges mostly professional but with some level of trust being formed between the two. The most potent moment between the two is Missandei and Dany holding hands in the fighting pits of Mareen when they thought they were going to die to the Harpies.
Just a tangential example though, we are to believe that dany had a emotional connection to missandei, but how many scenes in the show actually set this up? When did they interact with each other on a friendship basis, not missandei doing her job. Maybe i am not remembering it well enough, i didn't rewatch the series before season 8, but i don't really remember much of that. Which is a problem, because it is used as one piece of dany's emotional isolation.
I've been rewatching and so far there's only a small number of exchanges mostly professional but with some level of trust being formed between the two. The most potent moment between the two is Missandei and Dany holding hands in the fighting pits of Mareen when they thought they were going to die to the Harpies.
It might be enough if we fill in the gaps, but typically i'd ask a story to actually show me affection and not just pretend it exists. It reminds me of the SW prequels were it is mostly just stated that Anakin and Obi Wan have a deep friendship. You have to show your audience, anyone can pretend it as fact.
I remember a small talk between dany and missandei last season where it is about missandei's relationship with greyworm, but that was like 20 seconds. They are together for multiple seasons, i think it is fair to say that the show didn't really develop their friendship all that well.
Just a tangential example though, we are to believe that dany had a emotional connection to missandei, but how many scenes in the show actually set this up? When did they interact with each other on a friendship basis, not missandei doing her job. Maybe i am not remembering it well enough, i didn't rewatch the series before season 8, but i don't really remember much of that. Which is a problem, because it is used as one piece of dany's emotional isolation.
I've been rewatching and so far there's only a small number of exchanges mostly professional but with some level of trust being formed between the two. The most potent moment between the two is Missandei and Dany holding hands in the fighting pits of Mareen when they thought they were going to die to the Harpies.
It might be enough if we fill in the gaps, but typically i'd ask a story to actually show me affection and not just pretend it exists. It reminds me of the SW prequels were it is mostly just stated that Anakin and Obi Wan have a deep friendship. You have to show your audience, anyone can pretend it as fact.
I remember a small talk between dany and missandei last season where it is about missandei's relationship with greyworm, but that was like 20 seconds. They are together for multiple seasons, i think it is fair to say that the show didn't really develop their friendship all that well.
Yeah I agree. It's believable they're friends and/or close, and clearly Missandei means a lot to Dany as an advisor, but there's still a gap there in their relationship.
Give here one episode of proper mourning when she loses the first dragon. Make it feel like she lost a child. Give her two episodes to morn Jorah. Give her three episodes to morn second dragon, while others try to calm her telling her destroying Cersei and the whole KL is not the way to go.
Have Varys treason extend through few episodes. Have him send his letter, show us how the Northern lords actually start considering Jon as the new heir. Let Danny find out about this through some way, but have her ask Varys/Jon before that if they are loyal to her. Have her eavsdrop some Sansa convo where it appears like Sansa is plotting against her.
Have her be absolutely mad about Missandei death. Extend tyrion betrayal over 2-3 episode, show us Tyrion yet again trying to help his sister and brother, give Danny one episode to truly go mental thinking everyone is against here and have Grey Worm be her only trusted ally who urges her to cleanse the land.
I could buy such a descent into madness. And when bells ring she gets all these images on dead dragons, dead jorah, missandei, starks betrayal, varys plot, tyrion loyalt to Lannisters...hell, I'd burn everything at that point.
On May 23 2019 19:28 Rasalased wrote: The cinematics and music show them as heroic and noble. If you are a critical viewer, which apparently most people are not, it is obvious that it is not. To me, this is really surprising. I never guessed it was that easy to make propaganda and to make someone doing evil acts look like a good guy just by changing the presentation.
The show did a similar thing with Arya. Yes, her only desire was killing people. Yes, she still did care about friends and had a sense of justice. I guess GRRM will kill Arya off for being a bad person in the book. All people in the show bend on vengeance die. Daenerys did show more warmth and compassion. But Arya never thought she was destined for greatness or that she should have enormous power and rule. She just was a girl with a sword and a kill list. (I don't buy into the assassin training thing, she wasn't trained in fighting. It was just her cleaning stuff and riddles. And not only did she not train the ninja fighting skills she showed later, they seemed to be supernatural. Especially for a show that seemed to do away with silly martial arts dances in favour of actual practical gritty fighting. It was stupid.)
I make my own moral judgments about events in stories, but I keep that separate from what I think the writers want me to think and feel. The latter is important because otherwise I can fill in the gaps of any story however I want and make it to my liking, and then suddenly everyone is a great writer. But that's not how stories work, or art in general. Artists want to make people feel a certain way, and if they fail, they have failed.
Anyway, my interpretation of Dany's show arc up until season 8 is they wanted me to think she's a hero and savior. Then she wasn't. Why? I dunno. Maybe they didn't understand the character, who knows. Wouldn't be the first time.
Also your big rant about Arya does nothing to refute what I said, that we were supposed to expect Dany going evil and crazy even though Arya's actions are much worse with a far less noble goal. The point here is that you acting smug about Dany's heelturn being obvious is dumb because it wasn't obvious at all, since up til Season 8 Episode 4 I just thought that the writers think being an edgy dickhead is cool. They wouldn't be the first writers to do so and they won't be the last.
Or maybe D&D are hypergeniuses who bamboozled a moron like me with their expert Dany arc.
On May 23 2019 19:28 Rasalased wrote: The cinematics and music show them as heroic and noble. If you are a critical viewer, which apparently most people are not, it is obvious that it is not. To me, this is really surprising. I never guessed it was that easy to make propaganda and to make someone doing evil acts look like a good guy just by changing the presentation.
The show did a similar thing with Arya. Yes, her only desire was killing people. Yes, she still did care about friends and had a sense of justice. I guess GRRM will kill Arya off for being a bad person in the book. All people in the show bend on vengeance die. Daenerys did show more warmth and compassion. But Arya never thought she was destined for greatness or that she should have enormous power and rule. She just was a girl with a sword and a kill list. (I don't buy into the assassin training thing, she wasn't trained in fighting. It was just her cleaning stuff and riddles. And not only did she not train the ninja fighting skills she showed later, they seemed to be supernatural. Especially for a show that seemed to do away with silly martial arts dances in favour of actual practical gritty fighting. It was stupid.)
I make my own moral judgments about events in stories, but I keep that separate from what I think the writers want me to think and feel. The latter is important because otherwise I can fill in the gaps of any story however I want and make it to my liking, and then suddenly everyone is a great writer. But that's not how stories work, or art in general. Artists want to make people feel a certain way, and if they fail, they have failed.
Anyway, my interpretation of Dany's show arc up until season 8 is they wanted me to think she's a hero and savior. Then she wasn't. Why? I dunno. Maybe they didn't understand the character, who knows. Wouldn't be the first time.
Also your big rant about Arya does nothing to refute what I said, that we were supposed to expect Dany going evil and crazy even though Arya's actions are much worse with a far less noble goal. The point here is that you acting smug about Dany's heelturn being obvious is dumb because it wasn't obvious at all, since up til Season 8 Episode 4 I just thought that the writers think being an edgy dickhead is cool. They wouldn't be the first writers to do so and they won't be the last.
Or maybe D&D are hypergeniuses who bamboozled a moron like me with their expert Dany arc.
I think they set it up pretty clearly who and what danny was. Historically not an uncommon figure really, an emotionally traumatized person who does both great and terrible things, with a sense of their own destiny and greatness. Season 8 was garbage but everyone should of known what danny was long before that...
Like, when someone does heroic things but consistently justifies their grasp for power with "I was born to rule!" constantly threatening to set people on fire etc...probably not a great person?
Well she’s not a great person, but in this universe who is?
What Tomato said I agree with chunks for sure. The general conclusion that the storytelling failed, 100% with you on that.
I, who never warmed to Dany and felt her conviction based on destiny could be problematic combined with her ruthlessness, also thought it was done terribly.
It’s not just that people don’t buy a heel turn at all, it’s even people who expected/thought it a possibility and wanted a heel turn such as myself, didn’t buy how it happened and what happened from it.
I have zero data outside of this thread and conversations IRL, the majority of dissatisfaction I’ve seen isn’t the destination but how it was reached.
There was nothing clever or well-told about how it was done. Sometimes people’s instincts are correct on these things and no amount of filling in the holes the writers left can fill those gaps.
Hyperbolic yes but this is how children tell stories they make up, having one myself reminds me a bit of a teacher I had in my youth. ‘And then giant robots came down and then fought the aliens and then and then’ one of those stories. My teacher was very much ‘and why did this happen Wombat? How did they get there?’
She was a good teacher that taught me pretty early on that just throwing in cool stuff does not a story make, it feels DnD did this this whole season. They just rotated fan service, spectacle and then their Dany goes mental turn.
As to why, who knows? I’m not in the camp that thinks they don’t have the ability outside of Martin’s material, because some of the stuff that is altered for the show is actually pretty damn good.
On May 25 2019 23:20 Wombat_NI wrote: Well she’s not a great person, but in this universe who is?
Jon, brienne, tyrion, Jamie at the end of his life, pod, doloros edd and a few of those now dead nights watchmen, jorah. I'm sure im forgetting a few. I agree her arc completely failed narratively, however not seeing clearly-- and i mean years ago- that danny had a villainous core to her personality, you simply failed to pay attention. It wasnt done well the last few seasons by any stretch of the imagination, but it was obviously set up and was there from the very start of the show.
She was explicitly and consistently stating she wanted power purely based on birth right. Outside of growing a mustache and petting a cat, I cant think of a more obvious villain signal to send, and it was her entire arc.
Poorly done or not, it was obvious dannys arc was:
I am trying to accumulate power, and on the side im freeing slaves
not
i am freeing slaves and gaining power in order to do so!
On May 25 2019 23:20 Wombat_NI wrote: Well she’s not a great person, but in this universe who is?
Jon, brienne, tyrion, Jamie at the end of his life, pod, doloros edd and a few of those now dead nights watchmen, jorah. I'm sure im forgetting a few. I agree her arc completely failed narratively, however not seeing clearly-- and i mean years ago- that danny had a villainous core to her personality, you simply failed to pay attention. It wasnt done well the last few seasons by any stretch of the imagination, but it was obviously set up and was there from the very start of the show.
She was explicitly and consistently stating she wanted power purely based on birth right. Outside of growing a mustache and petting a cat, I cant think of a more obvious villain signal to send, and it was her entire arc.
Poorly done or not, it was obvious dannys arc was:
I am trying to accumulate power, and on the side im freeing slaves
not
i am freeing slaves and gaining power in order to do so!
No you :p It’s also not obvious, at all. I think it should have been but they don’t add those shades of grey. Dany is ants to be Queen, Dany can be ruthless, Dany wants to free the slaves. They kind of are presented in parallel, we don’t see much of how those play off against each other, especially not freeing the slaves versus wanting to be Queen.
I went straight into a full rewatch, some of this is pretty fresh. She does develop of course, that thread isn’t really there. You can make the case that her shtick is freeing slaves so she can’t go back on that without losing her base, but there are times her life would have been made easier by cutting deals and compromising, which she doesn’t do.
Stannis has a very similar mindset on destiny and a broadly similar stance on the importance of birthright and the crown. Tywin and Roose can be very cruel but always for some pragmatic purpose, and both speak of this too. I don’t see those guys blowing up King’s Landing when placed in her position
It doesn’t work if you do go the Machiavellian Tyrant Dany route (which as I’ve stated many times is my preference anyway), because there is no pragmatic reason to do what she did. She could accomplish the same fear by blowing up the Red Keep, not turn her allies against her, and not set her own new house on fire in the process.
On May 25 2019 23:20 Wombat_NI wrote: Well she’s not a great person, but in this universe who is?
Jon, brienne, tyrion, Jamie at the end of his life, pod, doloros edd and a few of those now dead nights watchmen, jorah. I'm sure im forgetting a few. I agree her arc completely failed narratively, however not seeing clearly-- and i mean years ago- that danny had a villainous core to her personality, you simply failed to pay attention. It wasnt done well the last few seasons by any stretch of the imagination, but it was obviously set up and was there from the very start of the show.
She was explicitly and consistently stating she wanted power purely based on birth right. Outside of growing a mustache and petting a cat, I cant think of a more obvious villain signal to send, and it was her entire arc.
Poorly done or not, it was obvious dannys arc was:
I am trying to accumulate power, and on the side im freeing slaves
not
i am freeing slaves and gaining power in order to do so!
we saw it but we also know she's a young angst-ridden girl from a crazy family who fights her way from the brink of slavery and death to command a conquering legion. just because she is more ruthless than pussyfoot-john and the fat otaku doesn't 'foreshadow imminent villainy (and genocide)'. who else do i think foreshadows bitchy traits, oh, yes, sansa for sure. dany's arc was 'the world is shit but now i have the power to change it, go fuck yourself'. no one thinks she is inherently evil, they just fucked up on managing her and now don't know what to do about it coz they're terrified of her. she needed a decent mother figure (or father figure?) like the marcellis grandmother to give her a good wallop and teach her some sense, rather than a harem of cucks running around after her picking up her spilt milk
this was the real tragedy, not that danys 'went mad and turned out evil', but that all of her aides failed to do their job and succesfully guide the young girl on her journey . tyrion failed, john failed, varys failed, warriorguy died, sailorguy failed, greyworm didnt gaf anymore. they were all cucks in the end
it's like the bad ending to a reverse eroge game where u play as cucks trying to not get friendzoned.
if u think abt it like that it's pretty epic, i'd play that game for sure
EPT
