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On July 09 2013 11:42 Shivaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 10:56 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 09:53 micronesia wrote:On July 09 2013 09:51 Dazed_Spy wrote:On July 09 2013 09:46 micronesia wrote:
Apparently Deb killed El Sapo. However, he took her gun in the storage building. How did she have a gun to shoot him in the parking lot? She doesn't seem to remember doing it... and I'm guessing that's because she didn't. She did, dude. I'm pretty sure she just has a second gun. I can't rule this out, but it doesn't seem like the most likely scenario to me. Why are you more sure she had a second gun (which I didn't see any mention of) than that she didn't do it? We don't actually see her do it, and those pseudo-flashes of the event could be a misdirection. Unless I am missing something (I only saw the episode once). edit: this response applies similarly to the poster below me... yeah the whole she was drunk and dosnt really remember what happened also supports an alternative possibility. The blood can easily be explained as coming for El Sapo beating her in the fight. yeah i dont know i am with you guys on this, it just seems like it could be someone else like her boss or w/e. This is a reach but maybe there was something in that drink he gave her that they made a big deal of showing :D
That would have been a very slow acting drug coming from that drink no? She had it all the way back at the office and it was still day time.
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Despite previously calling Dexter to have jumped the shark, I still watched the first episode of thi season... I think I'll run with it, hoping to end well.
It looks like the start is very good as usual, presenting interesting antagonist like always.
I like this profiler woman, she has this sort of "no bullshit" aura around her and seems to really despise Dexter.
There's one thing that makes me smile, however, which is the first episode's ending sentece: "You cannot kill me since I don't fit the code".
You cannot... SERIOUSLY?!?!
Let's consider what Vogel may know about this "code":
1) It's about not to get caught (let's not put ourself in danger of being discovered)
2) it's a way to redirect killings (only bad guys)
If there's one thing that this series keeps showing, it's how Dexter conveniently ignores or modify the code whenever he wants - be it to solve troubles, be it for passional reasons: Hannah (complete code infractions left and right - for once, he doesn't kill her), Lumen (many minor infractions, she conveniently doesn't pose a threat due to plot reasons - but she's a witness at first), Oscar Prado (somehow fitting the code for plot reasons, but potentially an innocent victim), Miguel Prado (teaching someone how to kill people, risking being caught, also he's a witness), Trinity (letting him kill more people just to study him, but at the same time risking being discovered and killed), Stan Liddy (a bad guy only due to plot reasons, but potentially a honest cop) and Debra (so's on her own level and may not be taken into account) are all good examples.
Edit: wasn't Dexter hammering a random guy to death as well? Back then he had no reason to believe him to be guilty of murder, right?
Still, Vogel may not know about all of these people, right?
But she knows about LaGuerta and Doakes, two fine agents who lost their life on the field.
Vogel most likely suspects Dex to be the Bay Harbour Butcher, she this means that Doakes isn't a killer: yet he died in a controversial accident. And LaGuerta died after investigating on Dexter, someone who has already been under investigation at least... thrice?
By LaGuerta, like already said, who died in strange circumstances.
By Doakes, who died as well in strange circumstances.
By Lundy, a retired agent who... died as well?
Vogel has no way to know that Dexter isn't actually the killer in all the three cases, but it also works the other way around.
Provoking a guy who you suspect to be a serial killer while knowing that all the guys who previously tried to track him down ended up badly and feeling safe because you believe to have found a set of rules he apparently follows seems total madness 
EDIT 2: LOLOLOLOL, I'm watching ep. 2... Dexter the contract killer LOLOLOLOL
Still I don't think she has any reason to feel safe with him, at all.
It looks more like a gamble with a devil to get rid of a demon...
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On July 09 2013 11:42 Shivaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 10:56 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 09:53 micronesia wrote:On July 09 2013 09:51 Dazed_Spy wrote:On July 09 2013 09:46 micronesia wrote:
Apparently Deb killed El Sapo. However, he took her gun in the storage building. How did she have a gun to shoot him in the parking lot? She doesn't seem to remember doing it... and I'm guessing that's because she didn't. She did, dude. I'm pretty sure she just has a second gun. I can't rule this out, but it doesn't seem like the most likely scenario to me. Why are you more sure she had a second gun (which I didn't see any mention of) than that she didn't do it? We don't actually see her do it, and those pseudo-flashes of the event could be a misdirection. Unless I am missing something (I only saw the episode once). edit: this response applies similarly to the poster below me... yeah the whole she was drunk and dosnt really remember what happened also supports an alternative possibility. The blood can easily be explained as coming for El Sapo beating her in the fight. yeah i dont know i am with you guys on this, it just seems like it could be someone else like her boss or w/e. This is a reach but maybe there was something in that drink he gave her that they made a big deal of showing :D
She said she went home first. Deb seems like the type of person with guns around her house.
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On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way  Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments 
studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment.
google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well.
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On July 10 2013 21:13 CatNzHat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment. google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well.
Link me those studies and prove it to me, I never recall enjoying a story once I knew the ending except for the Odissey, Dante's Commedia (who is constantly spoiled by the author himself) and old classics everybody talks about so you don't have any chance to avoid being spoilered.
I cannot even understand how it would be funny.
Edit: for the sake of the discussion, I gotta add that Columbo (tv series) is an exception since I loved it. But in that series the "spoiler" is the fundamental element since the series is more about setting up traps than discovering a culprit.
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That electrolyte juice better become relevant or it's some of the worst product placement I've seen on TV.
The way she freaked out with the photos makes me think it must've been her who shot him. I guess she found a 2nd gun in the storage.
I'm also 95% sure Vogel is the Brain Surgeon and is completely batshit crazy.
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On July 09 2013 09:53 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 09:51 Dazed_Spy wrote:On July 09 2013 09:46 micronesia wrote:
Apparently Deb killed El Sapo. However, he took her gun in the storage building. How did she have a gun to shoot him in the parking lot? She doesn't seem to remember doing it... and I'm guessing that's because she didn't. She did, dude. I'm pretty sure she just has a second gun. I can't rule this out, but it doesn't seem like the most likely scenario to me. Why are you more sure she had a second gun (which I didn't see any mention of) than that she didn't do it? We don't actually see her do it, and those pseudo-flashes of the event could be a misdirection. Unless I am missing something (I only saw the episode once). edit: this response applies similarly to the poster below me...
CRAZY SPECULATION TIME:
The electrolyte drink Debs boss gave her causes memory loss or some sort of mind control causing her to be a mindless killing puppet. The plot twist comes when Dexter finds out and starts drinking it too!
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On July 10 2013 23:12 Scarecrow wrote:
That electrolyte juice better become relevant or it's some of the worst product placement I've seen on TV.
The way she freaked out with the photos makes me think it must've been her who shot him. I guess she found a 2nd gun in the storage.
I'm also 95% sure Vogel is the Brain Surgeon and is completely batshit crazy.
i will eat my hat if Vogel is the brain surgeon it makes zero sense.
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On July 10 2013 23:29 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 23:12 Scarecrow wrote:
That electrolyte juice better become relevant or it's some of the worst product placement I've seen on TV.
The way she freaked out with the photos makes me think it must've been her who shot him. I guess she found a 2nd gun in the storage.
I'm also 95% sure Vogel is the Brain Surgeon and is completely batshit crazy. i will eat my hat if Vogel is the brain surgeon it makes zero sense.
For future reference, how many hats do you own?
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It would be super lame if Vogel is the "bad guy", it's the first person you'd think of.
I hope deb spirals out of control and he has to kill her.
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On July 10 2013 21:22 MavivaM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 21:13 CatNzHat wrote:On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment. google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well. Link me those studies and prove it to me, I never recall enjoying a story once I knew the ending except for the Odissey, Dante's Commedia (who is constantly spoiled by the author himself) and old classics everybody talks about so you don't have any chance to avoid being spoilered. I cannot even understand how it would be funny. Edit: for the sake of the discussion, I gotta add that Columbo (tv series) is an exception since I loved it. But in that series the "spoiler" is the fundamental element since the series is more about setting up traps than discovering a culprit.
Short report: Story Spoilers Don't Spoil Stories
Theres a full version too if you follow the link to the online version but you have to pay 35 bucks for it. Its more an observation but relatively open to interpretation why exactly spoilers dont spoil stories.
What i would think is that your anticipation is way higher and you pay more attention to details like how its executed. You appreciate that scene more indepth because at the first time you arent able to process everything at once. Its like many people watch the episodes multiple times and still enjoy it because there are different layers of enjoyment. The first the suprise and suspense, then the plot development and finally details and execution.
So the second time watching would be more enjoyable because you dont actually have to understand the plot and whats happening and can enjoy it more. So if you plan to watch it only once you can maximize your enjoyment by being spoilt, but if you plan to watch it multiple times anyhow you lose the enjoyment of the first suprise.
I think there is some truth to it, but i guess it can still be very subjective..
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On July 10 2013 23:47 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 21:22 MavivaM wrote:On July 10 2013 21:13 CatNzHat wrote:On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment. google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well. Link me those studies and prove it to me, I never recall enjoying a story once I knew the ending except for the Odissey, Dante's Commedia (who is constantly spoiled by the author himself) and old classics everybody talks about so you don't have any chance to avoid being spoilered. I cannot even understand how it would be funny. Edit: for the sake of the discussion, I gotta add that Columbo (tv series) is an exception since I loved it. But in that series the "spoiler" is the fundamental element since the series is more about setting up traps than discovering a culprit. Short report: Story Spoilers Don't Spoil StoriesTheres a full version too if you follow the link to the online version but you have to pay 35 bucks for it. Its more an observation but relatively open to interpretation why exactly spoilers dont spoil stories. What i would think is that your anticipation is way higher and you pay more attention to details like how its executed. You appreciate that scene more indepth because at the first time you arent able to process everything at once. Its like many people watch the episodes multiple times and still enjoy it because there are different layers of enjoyment. The first the suprise and suspense, then the plot development and finally details and execution. So the second time watching would be more enjoyable because you dont actually have to understand the plot and whats happening and can enjoy it more. So if you plan to watch it only once you can maximize your enjoyment by being spoilt, but if you plan to watch it multiple times anyhow you lose the enjoyment of the first suprise. I think there is some truth to it, but i guess it can still be very subjective..
Makes sense... in theatre, 'spoiling' the scenes has been successfully utilized as an estrangement effect for quite a while (e.g. in Berthold Brecht's Threepenny Opera).
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On July 10 2013 23:47 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 21:22 MavivaM wrote:On July 10 2013 21:13 CatNzHat wrote:On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment. google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well. Link me those studies and prove it to me, I never recall enjoying a story once I knew the ending except for the Odissey, Dante's Commedia (who is constantly spoiled by the author himself) and old classics everybody talks about so you don't have any chance to avoid being spoilered. I cannot even understand how it would be funny. Edit: for the sake of the discussion, I gotta add that Columbo (tv series) is an exception since I loved it. But in that series the "spoiler" is the fundamental element since the series is more about setting up traps than discovering a culprit. Short report: Story Spoilers Don't Spoil StoriesTheres a full version too if you follow the link to the online version but you have to pay 35 bucks for it. Its more an observation but relatively open to interpretation why exactly spoilers dont spoil stories. What i would think is that your anticipation is way higher and you pay more attention to details like how its executed. You appreciate that scene more indepth because at the first time you arent able to process everything at once. Its like many people watch the episodes multiple times and still enjoy it because there are different layers of enjoyment. The first the suprise and suspense, then the plot development and finally details and execution. So the second time watching would be more enjoyable because you dont actually have to understand the plot and whats happening and can enjoy it more. So if you plan to watch it only once you can maximize your enjoyment by being spoilt, but if you plan to watch it multiple times anyhow you lose the enjoyment of the first suprise. I think there is some truth to it, but i guess it can still be very subjective..
Imho this is too subjective to even call it a theory: what's the difference between a series you've been spoiled with (that you watch really carefully to pay attention to details) and a series that surprises you and make you want to rewatch it again to better enjoy what just happened?
Personally the only difference I see it's that the first case doesn't allow you to be surprised.
I mean, it's like handicapping your experience... can't really see why.
Personally I believe that spoilers are for lazy people or for those who don't really want themselves to dedicate to a story unless they are sure it's interesting. But then again, if they already know it's interesting thanks to the spoilers and watch it... they don't watch it at fullest.
A couple of examples with other series (without spoilering anyone), and one with Dexter's season 6.
1) GAME OF THRONES: watched the first series, was shocked by some events and went "holy shit". If I would have been spoilered, there wouldn't have been any surprise value.
Immediately I bought and read all the books, so the moment season 2 was up I knew everything.
During season 3 something big happens, but since I already knew what was going to happen there was no point in being shocked (unlike it happened when reading the books).
2) HANNIBAL: ended watching season 1. During the last episodes I started noticing how things were planned since the very start, how some camera shoots are hidden citations and so on... it made me want to rewatch it all.
And now it makes more sense, since I got both the analisys and the shock effect.
3) DEXTER SEASON 6: so, there's this bad guy+ Show Spoiler +who happens to have double personality. Somewhere I read about this around episode 5-6, and the series was ruined.
While like you I can get some sort of "truth" from that article, I find the general idea too cheap to call that a theory.
Unless it works with some people, of course... but then more than a theory is a sort of tendency for some sick individuals
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Yeah it seems too obvious but it just feels like Vogel is the bad guy. She's way too creepy to be a normal person.
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I hope Vogel is a bad guy, but not the one slicing the brains open. That would be sooo lame. I hope she has been making an army of psychopath serial killers or something strange like that
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On July 11 2013 00:35 MavivaM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 23:47 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On July 10 2013 21:22 MavivaM wrote:On July 10 2013 21:13 CatNzHat wrote:On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment. google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well. Link me those studies and prove it to me, I never recall enjoying a story once I knew the ending except for the Odissey, Dante's Commedia (who is constantly spoiled by the author himself) and old classics everybody talks about so you don't have any chance to avoid being spoilered. I cannot even understand how it would be funny. Edit: for the sake of the discussion, I gotta add that Columbo (tv series) is an exception since I loved it. But in that series the "spoiler" is the fundamental element since the series is more about setting up traps than discovering a culprit. Short report: Story Spoilers Don't Spoil StoriesTheres a full version too if you follow the link to the online version but you have to pay 35 bucks for it. Its more an observation but relatively open to interpretation why exactly spoilers dont spoil stories. What i would think is that your anticipation is way higher and you pay more attention to details like how its executed. You appreciate that scene more indepth because at the first time you arent able to process everything at once. Its like many people watch the episodes multiple times and still enjoy it because there are different layers of enjoyment. The first the suprise and suspense, then the plot development and finally details and execution. So the second time watching would be more enjoyable because you dont actually have to understand the plot and whats happening and can enjoy it more. So if you plan to watch it only once you can maximize your enjoyment by being spoilt, but if you plan to watch it multiple times anyhow you lose the enjoyment of the first suprise. I think there is some truth to it, but i guess it can still be very subjective.. Imho this is too subjective to even call it a theory: what's the difference between a series you've been spoiled with (that you watch really carefully to pay attention to details) and a series that surprises you and make you want to rewatch it again to better enjoy what just happened? Personally the only difference I see it's that the first case doesn't allow you to be surprised. I mean, it's like handicapping your experience... can't really see why. Personally I believe that spoilers are for lazy people or for those who don't really want themselves to dedicate to a story unless they are sure it's interesting. But then again, if they already know it's interesting thanks to the spoilers and watch it... they don't watch it at fullest. A couple of examples with other series (without spoilering anyone), and one with Dexter's season 6. 1) GAME OF THRONES: watched the first series, was shocked by some events and went "holy shit". If I would have been spoilered, there wouldn't have been any surprise value. Immediately I bought and read all the books, so the moment season 2 was up I knew everything. During season 3 something big happens, but since I already knew what was going to happen there was no point in being shocked (unlike it happened when reading the books). 2) HANNIBAL: ended watching season 1. During the last episodes I started noticing how things were planned since the very start, how some camera shoots are hidden citations and so on... it made me want to rewatch it all. And now it makes more sense, since I got both the analisys and the shock effect. 3) DEXTER SEASON 6: so, there's this bad guy + Show Spoiler +who happens to have double personality. Somewhere I read about this around episode 5-6, and the series was ruined. While like you I can get some sort of "truth" from that article, I find the general idea too cheap to call that a theory. Unless it works with some people, of course... but then more than a theory is a sort of tendency for some sick individuals
its not a theory its a study with the observation that in 11 of 12 selected cases people enjoyed the story more when they were spoilt than unspoilt.
Why is that the case? they dont really know either. The reasoning why is more speculative and what i wrote was more my personal non-scientific interpretation.
You could maybe criticize the selection of spoilers not being representative and maybe not covering all kinds of spoilers / differentiating between good and bad spoilers. apparently in 1 case out of 12 the spoiler decreased enjoyment of the story. I didnt go that deep with the study and checked what their spoilers were but i think they had a selection of different kinds so it might even out so that it is representative.
All your personal observations dont have any scientific value because you cannot tell in retrospective if you would have actually enjoyed it more if you werent spoilt. For example 3) Was your experience ruined because it was spoilt or because it was a bad plot twist in the first place? (because of inconsistencies in the plot for example)
you will never know^^
A less populistic title would be spoilers dont spoil stories in 11 of 12 representative(?) cases, but who gets attention with such cowardice? :D
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On July 11 2013 01:33 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 00:35 MavivaM wrote:On July 10 2013 23:47 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On July 10 2013 21:22 MavivaM wrote:On July 10 2013 21:13 CatNzHat wrote:On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment. google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well. Link me those studies and prove it to me, I never recall enjoying a story once I knew the ending except for the Odissey, Dante's Commedia (who is constantly spoiled by the author himself) and old classics everybody talks about so you don't have any chance to avoid being spoilered. I cannot even understand how it would be funny. Edit: for the sake of the discussion, I gotta add that Columbo (tv series) is an exception since I loved it. But in that series the "spoiler" is the fundamental element since the series is more about setting up traps than discovering a culprit. Short report: Story Spoilers Don't Spoil StoriesTheres a full version too if you follow the link to the online version but you have to pay 35 bucks for it. Its more an observation but relatively open to interpretation why exactly spoilers dont spoil stories. What i would think is that your anticipation is way higher and you pay more attention to details like how its executed. You appreciate that scene more indepth because at the first time you arent able to process everything at once. Its like many people watch the episodes multiple times and still enjoy it because there are different layers of enjoyment. The first the suprise and suspense, then the plot development and finally details and execution. So the second time watching would be more enjoyable because you dont actually have to understand the plot and whats happening and can enjoy it more. So if you plan to watch it only once you can maximize your enjoyment by being spoilt, but if you plan to watch it multiple times anyhow you lose the enjoyment of the first suprise. I think there is some truth to it, but i guess it can still be very subjective.. Imho this is too subjective to even call it a theory: what's the difference between a series you've been spoiled with (that you watch really carefully to pay attention to details) and a series that surprises you and make you want to rewatch it again to better enjoy what just happened? Personally the only difference I see it's that the first case doesn't allow you to be surprised. I mean, it's like handicapping your experience... can't really see why. Personally I believe that spoilers are for lazy people or for those who don't really want themselves to dedicate to a story unless they are sure it's interesting. But then again, if they already know it's interesting thanks to the spoilers and watch it... they don't watch it at fullest. A couple of examples with other series (without spoilering anyone), and one with Dexter's season 6. 1) GAME OF THRONES: watched the first series, was shocked by some events and went "holy shit". If I would have been spoilered, there wouldn't have been any surprise value. Immediately I bought and read all the books, so the moment season 2 was up I knew everything. During season 3 something big happens, but since I already knew what was going to happen there was no point in being shocked (unlike it happened when reading the books). 2) HANNIBAL: ended watching season 1. During the last episodes I started noticing how things were planned since the very start, how some camera shoots are hidden citations and so on... it made me want to rewatch it all. And now it makes more sense, since I got both the analisys and the shock effect. 3) DEXTER SEASON 6: so, there's this bad guy + Show Spoiler +who happens to have double personality. Somewhere I read about this around episode 5-6, and the series was ruined. While like you I can get some sort of "truth" from that article, I find the general idea too cheap to call that a theory. Unless it works with some people, of course... but then more than a theory is a sort of tendency for some sick individuals its not a theory its a study with the observation that in 11 of 12 selected cases people enjoyed the story more when they were spoilt than unspoilt. Why is that the case? they dont really know either. The reasoning why is more speculative and what i wrote was more my personal non-scientific interpretation. You could maybe criticize the selection of spoilers not being representative and maybe not covering all kinds of spoilers / differentiating between good and bad spoilers. apparently in 1 case out of 12 the spoiler decreased enjoyment of the story. I didnt go that deep with the study and checked what their spoilers were but i think they had a selection of different kinds so it might even out so that it is representative. All your personal observations dont have any scientific value because you cannot tell in retrospective if you would have actually enjoyed it more if you werent spoilt. For example 3) Was your experience ruined because it was spoilt or because it was a bad plot twist in the first place? (because of inconsistencies in the plot for example) you will never know^^ A less populistic title would be spoilers dont spoil stories in 11 of 12 representative(?) cases, but who gets attention with such cowardice? :D
Really interesting opinions, despite not always agreeing since
1 one of my main points is that spoilers do negate shock value and surprise, so be them bad or good doesn't really matter.
2 absolutely true about my opinions not having value, not agreeing with the rest of the sentence since we could keep going with the relativity route all day long. The same works backwards.
3 yep...
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I'm going to be so annoyed if Vogel actually turns out to be the one holding the gun to the fat man's head, I'm going to puke.
Is the wooden acting actually wooden acting or trying to throw us off course, so we expect her to be this season's bad guy when she isn't?
Or maybe it's Doakes, having survived the explosion, being horridly disfigured now and planning his revenge for six seasons...
The finale better be mind-blowing.
Also, they couldn't have picked a name that is more annoying to the 25 German viewers of the show, how dare they be so inconsiderate?
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On July 11 2013 01:33 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 00:35 MavivaM wrote:On July 10 2013 23:47 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On July 10 2013 21:22 MavivaM wrote:On July 10 2013 21:13 CatNzHat wrote:On July 09 2013 05:46 Reason wrote:On July 09 2013 05:45 iamperfection wrote:On July 09 2013 05:40 Reason wrote:
God damn it can we not talk about previews? if there is one thing we have learned from dexter previews is that they regularly try to throw us off on purpose. I wouldn't know and I'd like to keep it that way Watching previews of ANYTHING is the DUMBEST THING you can do imo.... If you know you're going to watch it, why spoil even the tiniest scene? I understand watching a movie preview if it's not like the next Star Wars or a famous director because you might not be sure if you want to see the film, but when you're watching something like Dexter or GoT or whatever, why the fuck would you want to see anything about what happens next week? There's literally NO chance that I'm not going to watch the next episode... watching a preview of something I know for certain I'm going to watch is something I absolutely never do, when I'm in the cinema and they should me previews of the FILM I'M ABOUT TO WATCH I want to burn the theater to the ground! + Show Spoiler +What I actually do is put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and look stupid for a few moments studies have shown that watching/reading a story once it's been 'spoiled' leads to higher enjoyment. google if you don't believe me, or just try it. Knowing the ending isn't so bad, it's fun to try to predict things from previews as well. Link me those studies and prove it to me, I never recall enjoying a story once I knew the ending except for the Odissey, Dante's Commedia (who is constantly spoiled by the author himself) and old classics everybody talks about so you don't have any chance to avoid being spoilered. I cannot even understand how it would be funny. Edit: for the sake of the discussion, I gotta add that Columbo (tv series) is an exception since I loved it. But in that series the "spoiler" is the fundamental element since the series is more about setting up traps than discovering a culprit. Short report: Story Spoilers Don't Spoil StoriesTheres a full version too if you follow the link to the online version but you have to pay 35 bucks for it. Its more an observation but relatively open to interpretation why exactly spoilers dont spoil stories. What i would think is that your anticipation is way higher and you pay more attention to details like how its executed. You appreciate that scene more indepth because at the first time you arent able to process everything at once. Its like many people watch the episodes multiple times and still enjoy it because there are different layers of enjoyment. The first the suprise and suspense, then the plot development and finally details and execution. So the second time watching would be more enjoyable because you dont actually have to understand the plot and whats happening and can enjoy it more. So if you plan to watch it only once you can maximize your enjoyment by being spoilt, but if you plan to watch it multiple times anyhow you lose the enjoyment of the first suprise. I think there is some truth to it, but i guess it can still be very subjective.. Imho this is too subjective to even call it a theory: what's the difference between a series you've been spoiled with (that you watch really carefully to pay attention to details) and a series that surprises you and make you want to rewatch it again to better enjoy what just happened? Personally the only difference I see it's that the first case doesn't allow you to be surprised. I mean, it's like handicapping your experience... can't really see why. Personally I believe that spoilers are for lazy people or for those who don't really want themselves to dedicate to a story unless they are sure it's interesting. But then again, if they already know it's interesting thanks to the spoilers and watch it... they don't watch it at fullest. A couple of examples with other series (without spoilering anyone), and one with Dexter's season 6. 1) GAME OF THRONES: watched the first series, was shocked by some events and went "holy shit". If I would have been spoilered, there wouldn't have been any surprise value. Immediately I bought and read all the books, so the moment season 2 was up I knew everything. During season 3 something big happens, but since I already knew what was going to happen there was no point in being shocked (unlike it happened when reading the books). 2) HANNIBAL: ended watching season 1. During the last episodes I started noticing how things were planned since the very start, how some camera shoots are hidden citations and so on... it made me want to rewatch it all. And now it makes more sense, since I got both the analisys and the shock effect. 3) DEXTER SEASON 6: so, there's this bad guy + Show Spoiler +who happens to have double personality. Somewhere I read about this around episode 5-6, and the series was ruined. While like you I can get some sort of "truth" from that article, I find the general idea too cheap to call that a theory. Unless it works with some people, of course... but then more than a theory is a sort of tendency for some sick individuals its not a theory its a study with the observation that in 11 of 12 selected cases people enjoyed the story more when they were spoilt than unspoilt. Why is that the case? they dont really know either. The reasoning why is more speculative and what i wrote was more my personal non-scientific interpretation. You could maybe criticize the selection of spoilers not being representative and maybe not covering all kinds of spoilers / differentiating between good and bad spoilers. apparently in 1 case out of 12 the spoiler decreased enjoyment of the story. I didnt go that deep with the study and checked what their spoilers were but i think they had a selection of different kinds so it might even out so that it is representative. All your personal observations dont have any scientific value because you cannot tell in retrospective if you would have actually enjoyed it more if you werent spoilt. For example 3) Was your experience ruined because it was spoilt or because it was a bad plot twist in the first place? (because of inconsistencies in the plot for example) you will never know^^ A less populistic title would be spoilers dont spoil stories in 11 of 12 representative(?) cases, but who gets attention with such cowardice? :D
This debate came up in the GoT thread too.
Personally I could care less how many people out of 12 enjoy spoilers, I don't, and I think if you asked most people, they would say the same thing. I had something important spoiled for me in GoT and it was awful. Knowing what was going to happen made the episode really lackluster, while everybody else was very affected by it. It bothered me knowing that I missed out on that enjoyment.
Same story with this season of Dexter so far. The pre-season trailer spoiled way too much of the first episode, and I felt like I had seen the whole thing already. Episode 2 previews ruined most of episode 2 for me. I'm not watching the previews anymore.
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Wouldn't it be poetic if...
In the first season, Dexter's brother Rudy, ends up dying on the table by Dexter's hand?
And in the final season, Dexter's sister Debra, ends up dying on the table by Dexter's hand?
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EPT
