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On April 03 2017 18:22 ETisME wrote:
The power scaling is definitly weird and honestly it's strange to have these as the ten strongest in the universe.
So many of them are out of shape, shouldnt goten and trunks beat out tien quite easily?
I think the whole point with Goten and Trunks is that, while they're strong, they're too young and inexperienced for a match like this. Even though Roshi is far, far weaker, his hundreds of years of experience are invaluable to the team effort.
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On April 03 2017 19:48 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 18:22 ETisME wrote:
The power scaling is definitly weird and honestly it's strange to have these as the ten strongest in the universe.
So many of them are out of shape, shouldnt goten and trunks beat out tien quite easily? I think the whole point with Goten and Trunks is that, while they're strong, they're too young and inexperienced for a match like this. Even though Roshi is far, far weaker, his hundreds of years of experience are invaluable to the team effort.
agreed, tho trunks and goten arent that dumb they came up with a ton of strats vs buu, with the main one being that chocolate distraction rofl...but i guess buu is kind of an idiot
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Gotenks' fighting moves are big and fun to look at, but I'm afraid most of them are just a waste of energy.
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Ok, I agree Goku was clearly holding back, but there was that brief scene where he had to increase his kamehameha and exert himself that bothered me. I also thought he was just going SSJB in order to make sure he does well under stress, but the idea of "shit, gotta crank it up!" against Krillin is madness.
Piccolo is the only one that makes sense to have be remotely as strong as Goku/Vegeta. In the Android saga, he seemed similarly dominant as Vegeta against 20/19. Didn't do so hot in the Buu saga, though.
I really like the idea of there being a 3rd character that is at least somewhat on the level of the Saiyans. Hell, just someone besides Goku/Vegeta. Love it or hate it, GT did a great job at developing Pan. I'm disappointed Goten and Trunks are ignored because they are young. The idea that them being young is a suitable reason is silly when Saiyans send babies to take over planets is silly. And if they are young and inexperienced, train them. They are insanely talented and would be good characters.
In all likelihood, it makes sense to just let go of certain aspects of power comparison. When Cell went perfect and everyone took turns punching him without him even slightly moving, it set the stage for what it means to be some percentage stronger than someone else. Then again, characters much weaker than their opponent have had a lot of success with surprise attacks from the side to intervene in a fight and things like that.
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It looked more like Goku was holding back just enough to scare Krillin into showing how he fights against an unbeatable opponent.
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Piccolo, in the Cell Saga, matched 17 (after fusing with Kami). That was after Vegeta and Trunks got trashed by them. But then Vegeta and Trunks went to time chamber, so did Piccolo but we didn't get to see the results of Piccolo training. He fared as badly as the Vegeta/Trunks vs the Cell Jr.
C'mon, Krillin punched Cell and Cell just ignored and kept looking at his new hands. He didn't even moved Cell. Goku's SSJ2 should be at times time, tougher than Cell.
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On April 04 2017 00:29 TMG26 wrote:
C'mon, Krillin punched Cell and Cell just ignored and kept looking at his new hands. He didn't even moved Cell. Goku's SSJ2 should be at times time, tougher than Cell.
Yeah, this scene is where Krillin was completely removed from the show in my eyes. I've always hated his character, so maybe I am being overly scornful. I still fully maintain throwing Goten and Trunks in the time chamber would be 100x better than Krillin + Tien.
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As Vegeta showed in the Freeza saga vs Krillin, they can lower their guard so that peasants can hurt them. Cell obviously didn't, Goku would have.
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About Trunks and Goten:
The whole argument that they don't have any experience is just silly to begin with. They DID help against buu afterall. Also at some point the difference in power is simply way more important than a cute trick here and there. That's the problem, the power difference should be quite extreme between these characters so "experience" is an odd excuse.
Unless Goku and friends think that Vegeta and Goku (and maybe gohan/buu) are basically all the power they need. I don't see why they would think that though.
Like i would actually be happy if the fights would be more about tactics/strategy in general. But you just cannot start with it hundreds of episodes in it when the power scale is like it is now. It's not coherent at that point and that bugs me more than all fights essentially being about power.
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One thought that occurred to me: Maybe Toppo's team won't be a 10 Toppo'ish strength fighters. Maybe all the universes will have a similar composition of niche strategists and things like that. There's always the short, stubby character that does something so goofy it justifies how weak they are. I guess that's Krillin now.
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Vegeta and Goku have SSB power; they're useful because they're powerhouses.
Gohan and Buu are less powerful but they are still pretty damn strong. Buu has impressive endurance and abilities. Gohan has the same potential as Vegeta and Goku but merely needs more practice.
17 and 18 are pretty strong while having certain useful Android abilities - probably most notable is the Android Barrier technique. Also they are a natural team.
The other four - Tien, Krillin, Piccolo, and Roshi - are experienced fighters with a long history. They might not be the most powerful but each of them has some combination of powerful abilities and experience to bring to the table. Piccolo and Tien have impressive endurance for characters so outdated. Krillin is a pretty sneaky mofo. And Roshi, as he demonstrated when fighting as Jackie Chun, is ancient but keeps up by leveraging his skill.
What do Trunks and Goten add? They are neither particularly powerful nor experienced. Goku said it best: "their fighting style is too predictable and straightforward." They add nothing.
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On April 04 2017 00:58 LegalLord wrote:
What do Trunks and Goten add? They are neither particularly powerful nor experienced. Goku said it best: "their fighting style is too predictable and straightforward." They add nothing.
Sure, but so the characters are just never trained and nothing ever comes of them? They should at least be known to be training themselves or something. The idea that Goten and Trunks just play with legos and fly around sometimes is dumb.
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That's where difference in power comes into play. Goten and Trunks surely are way, way, way more powerful than any human. At least they should be tbh.
I don't see how more experience matters when your attacks are simply so weak they won't do anything against your opponents. A coach usually doesn't play actively on the field.
Experience would be a good argument if the difference in power would be fairly minor in comparison, but i simply don't see that's the case. At that point it makes no sense to me anymore.
Again: If you write your story in that corner don't expect me to believe your retcon, it's bad writing
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On April 04 2017 01:01 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2017 00:58 LegalLord wrote:
What do Trunks and Goten add? They are neither particularly powerful nor experienced. Goku said it best: "their fighting style is too predictable and straightforward." They add nothing. Sure, but so the characters are just never trained and nothing ever comes of them? They should at least be known to be training themselves or something. The idea that Goten and Trunks just play with legos and fly around sometimes is dumb.
They clearly grew up in a peaceful world, with a single intermission - Buu - and their fighting ability suffers for it. They just don't have the fighter's instinct.
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there is no way that krillin / tien / roshi could do anything vs Trunks. He's just on another level. Piccolo could tough, he was at some point stronger than some adult super sayans.
And using time chamber, Trunks and Goten potential is unrivaled. Super Sayans at such young age. With a year of full training they would reach really strong levels, a year older with intense training, imagine... It did wonders for teen Gohan.
Also, what if they enlist Gotenks? he could only fight for some minutes, but that is enough for a match. And he has a shit load of creativity and unpredictability.
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On April 04 2017 01:18 TMG26 wrote:
there is no way that krillin / tien / roshi could do anything vs Trunks. He's just on another level. Piccolo could tough, he was at some point stronger than some adult super sayans.
And using time chamber, Trunks and Goten potential is unrivaled. Super Sayans at such young age. With a year of full training they would reach really strong levels, a year older with intense training, imagine... It did wonders for teen Gohan.
Also, what if they enlist Gotenks? he could only fight for some minutes, but that is enough for a match. And he has a shit load of creativity and unpredictability.
The fusion lasts 30 minutes tops, the match has a time limit of 48 minutes. So Gotenks will never last until the end of the match.
Plus a fusion is technically 2 people so probably against the rules.
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On April 04 2017 02:37 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2017 01:18 TMG26 wrote:
there is no way that krillin / tien / roshi could do anything vs Trunks. He's just on another level. Piccolo could tough, he was at some point stronger than some adult super sayans.
And using time chamber, Trunks and Goten potential is unrivaled. Super Sayans at such young age. With a year of full training they would reach really strong levels, a year older with intense training, imagine... It did wonders for teen Gohan.
Also, what if they enlist Gotenks? he could only fight for some minutes, but that is enough for a match. And he has a shit load of creativity and unpredictability. The fusion lasts 30 minutes tops, the match has a time limit of 48 minutes. So Gotenks will never last until the end of the match. Plus a fusion is technically 2 people so probably against the rules.
Even without Gotenks, there is no conceivable way Tien and Krillin contribute enough wisdom or experience to outdo Goten and Trunks. If Trunks powered up as high as he could and immediately charged Tien or Krillin upon a match starting, the entire thing would be over in under a second. I would argue both Tien and Krillin would lose at the same time to either Goten or Trunks.
This is, as was pointed out, the result of them writing themselves into a corner. You don't get to just say "lol never mind power isn't real!!".
It would have perhaps been somewhat decently ok if after Krillin having this whole "I need to be powerful to make my daughter proud!" moment, if he trained with Goku in the time chamber for a year or some shit. I mean give me ANY reason to think of Krillin as remotely capable.
And Tien has been so withdrawn from the story that I don't even see what they are on about. No one gives a shit about Tien. At least Krillin has like 1 or 2 fans.
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Tien stood up to Cell and he stood up to Buu. He's decently strong.
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I'm having way more fun keeping up with the story through you guys' conversation and discussion rather than actually watching the series.
Keep up the good work!
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On April 04 2017 01:01 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2017 00:58 LegalLord wrote:
What do Trunks and Goten add? They are neither particularly powerful nor experienced. Goku said it best: "their fighting style is too predictable and straightforward." They add nothing. Sure, but so the characters are just never trained and nothing ever comes of them? They should at least be known to be training themselves or something. The idea that Goten and Trunks just play with legos and fly around sometimes is dumb.
DBZ established that they usually sparred with each other when meeting up, but then again this is DBS so that may no longer be a thing.
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EPT
