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We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
Yes he was injured and distracted, but you still have someone who didn't believe the force existed 20 minutes ago defeating a character who's been using it for close to 20 years. He wasn't that injured. You can't really get around the fact that Rey's jedi development is ludicrously out of proportion with any other character in the universe, including the Choson One(TM) and Luke himself. It's extremely jarring, irrespective of her physical size or badassitude. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On January 15 2016 07:26 Belisarius wrote: idk dude the Rey vs Kylo fight was pretty ridiculous. Yes he was injured and distracted,... That he was injured/shot with the bowcaster/bleeding only shows us that even JJ Abrams was worried it would be a silly scene. He realized Rey's victory needed some explanation and wasn't convincing enough. Yet people argue backwards. Because he was shot, it make sense. If it made sense, they didn't need to patchwork up the whole thing. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 15 2016 08:18 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: That he was injured/shot with the bowcaster/bleeding only shows us that even JJ Abrams was worried it would be a silly scene. He realized Rey's victory needed some explanation and wasn't convincing enough. Yet people argue backwards. Because he was shot, it make sense. If it made sense, they didn't need to patchwork up the whole thing. This makes no sense. So people write their stuff to make more sense and you hold that against them? WTF. Obviously it was included to make the fight scene more believable, how can you say that is bad though? I don't get this at all. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 15 2016 08:58 The_Red_Viper wrote: This makes no sense. So people write their stuff to make more sense and you hold that against them? WTF. Obviously it was included to make the fight scene more believable, how can you say that is bad though? I don't get this at all. He's just a salty fanboy that comes here to cry about the movie and that Rey could win when Kylo clearly trained in 200x gravity. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aAWs3yF.jpg) | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On January 15 2016 07:26 Belisarius wrote: idk dude the Rey vs Kylo fight was pretty ridiculous. Yes he was injured and distracted, but you still have someone who didn't believe the force existed 20 minutes ago defeating a character who's been using it for close to 20 years. He wasn't that injured. You can't really get around the fact that Rey's jedi development is ludicrously out of proportion with any other character in the universe, including the Choson One(TM) and Luke himself. It's extremely jarring, irrespective of her physical size or badassitude. I don't see what's so ridiculous about it. By the time the fight actually happened, it was well-established in every single scene he was in that he was completely lacking in any kind of self-control. He was sloppy at the best of times, and the moment things started going badly, he threw a tantrum and became a child with a big stick (both with his lightsaber and the force). Now, I can see why people might not like the way the character is. I just don't understand why anyone would think he was a character intentionally designed to be very good at anything he does. And continuity-wise it makes sense. He was a barely trained padawan taught by a (mostly) self-taught Jedi, and had no one to teach him to use his emotions like a proper Sith should. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
If you don't see that as a narrative issue, good for you, but your opinion doesn't make it any less strange. On January 15 2016 11:38 WolfintheSheep wrote: I don't see what's so ridiculous about it. By the time the fight actually happened, it was well-established in every single scene he was in that he was completely lacking in any kind of self-control. He was sloppy at the best of times, and the moment things started going badly, he threw a tantrum and became a child with a big stick (both with his lightsaber and the force). Now, I can see why people might not like the way the character is. I just don't understand why anyone would think he was a character intentionally designed to be very good at anything he does. And continuity-wise it makes sense. He was a barely trained padawan taught by a (mostly) self-taught Jedi, and had no one to teach him to use his emotions like a proper Sith should. Again, the problem is predominantly Rey's supercharged development, not Kylo being emo. I said before that I quite liked Kylo's character. I agree, it's well established that he's not a particularly effective Sith, but even a very ineffective and distracted self-taught Sith would be expected to beat the pants off a not-taught-at-all random. At the very least, the fact that it's mostly down to Rey should be obvious from the whole close-her-eyes-and-level-up thing. Kylo didn't suddenly become more emo or more injured at that point, and he had it together enough to beat her until then. | ||
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oBlade
United States5749 Posts
On January 15 2016 08:58 The_Red_Viper wrote: This makes no sense. So people write their stuff to make more sense and you hold that against them? WTF. Obviously it was included to make the fight scene more believable, how can you say that is bad though? I don't get this at all. He's saying that Rey's meteoric growth defies credulity. So if you have to do something like handicap the main villain just to make it seem plausible that she could beat him, it's another sign that the character rose too fast. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
The scene was totally fine. | ||
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oBlade
United States5749 Posts
On January 15 2016 12:10 Plansix wrote: We have never seen someone naturally learn the force or their abilities. People had to learn it on their own at some point. Luke picks up using the force pretty quickly and blocks blaster bolts after a couple hours training. Pulling off two force tricks during the course of the movie seemed totally reasonable. Is learning it on their own not the same as learning it naturally? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 15 2016 12:28 oBlade wrote: Is learning it on their own not the same as learning it naturally? It's the same. Jedi didn't exist forever. Someone had to learn they could influence the weak willed. And there is nothing weaker willed than a storm trooper. Easy pray for a new force user. Same with picking up the saber that Rey clearly had some connection too. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On January 15 2016 11:40 Belisarius wrote: I realise that it's easier to pump out silly one liners than make an actual contribution to a discussion, but Rey is doing things after 15 minutes of no-training that it took other, ostensibly very powerful characters years to learn to do. If you don't see that as a narrative issue, good for you, but your opinion doesn't make it any less strange. Again, the problem is predominantly Rey's supercharged development, not Kylo being emo. I said before that I quite liked Kylo's character. I agree, it's well established that he's not a particularly effective Sith, but even a very ineffective and distracted self-taught Sith would be expected to beat the pants off a not-taught-at-all random. At the very least, the fact that it's mostly down to Rey should be obvious from the whole close-her-eyes-and-level-up thing. Kylo didn't suddenly become more emo or more injured at that point, and he had it together enough to beat her until then. Fin set the baseline for what someone with little-to-no hand to hand experience can do with a lightsaber, and it's not like couldn't put up a fight against Ren. Rey was/is probably a lot better at melee combat than Fin. And it was also shown that the saber had some kind of retained memory through Luke. There was more than throughout the movie to justify Ren losing to an amateur. | ||
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oBlade
United States5749 Posts
On January 15 2016 12:30 Plansix wrote: It's the same. Jedi didn't exist forever. Someone had to learn they could influence the weak willed. And there is nothing weaker willed than a storm trooper. Easy pray for a new force user. Same with picking up the saber that Rey clearly had some connection too. Let's take a real look at Luke's path through the Force, and then compare, how about? Like you said earlier, Luke, within a day or two of discovering the Force existed (from Obi-wan), was blocking laser bolts with a lightsaber. But if you remember the context of that scene in the movie, it was very much open as to whether Luke had just been lucky, as Han, the skeptic, thought; or whether he was beginning to feel the Force, as Obi-wan's little exercise was about. In ANH Luke: -Blocked some laser pings, with Obi-wan guiding -Shot the door to block Vader when the Falcon escaped the Death Star, possibly under the influence of the Force (Obi-wan's voice in his head) -Shot a torpedo without a computer (basically definitely using the Force, with Obi-wan in his head) The point here is even the son of Anakin Skywalker takes a little while to really do something with the Force, and the one thing he does is the climax of the movie Then in Empire, Luke, having been Force-aware for several years: -Force pulls his lightsaber a short distance after several failed attempts -Gets more counsel from Obi-wan's ghost -Gets bona fide instruction from an ancient Jedi master, and even then he: -Is outclassed by a Sith lord in a lightsaber duel By the beginning of ROTJ, Luke is using mind tricks, something he saw Obi-wan do in ANH. Two movies ago. In TFA Rey: -Sort of Force-hallucinated BB8 while wearing a helmet? -sort of used "Jedi reflexes" to close a door on the space kraken and save Finn -practices Force "Occlumency" the first time Kylo probes her mind -is already doing mind tricks -Force pulls effortlessly despite Ren pulling the same lightsaber and then wins their fight If you wanted to argue that nobody really got what was going on, and say that Ren somehow transferred power, or awareness, during his botched interrogation of Rey, and that's why her ability shot up at such an amazing rate, that'd be a fair point. But to pretend the rate she found her powers has any comparison with any character we've seen before, doesn't seem lucid. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On January 15 2016 13:11 oBlade wrote: In TFA Rey: -Sort of Force-hallucinated BB8 while wearing a helmet? -sort of used "Jedi reflexes" to close a door on the space kraken and save Finn -practices Force "Occlumency" the first time Kylo probes her mind -is already doing mind tricks -Force pulls effortlessly despite Ren pulling the same lightsaber and then wins their fight If you wanted to argue that nobody really got what was going on, and say that Ren somehow transferred power, or awareness, during his botched interrogation of Rey, and that's why her ability shot up at such an amazing rate, that'd be a fair point. But to pretend the rate she found her powers has any comparison with any character we've seen before, doesn't seem lucid. 1) Rey heard BB8 in the desert...why would the force have anything to do with this? 2) She was staring at a screen showing the alien thingy drag Finn around. Again, what does the force have to do with any of this? 5) Not sure why people miss something so blatantly obvious from this scene. Ren tries pulling first, and it doesn't move at all. They are pulling in the exact same direction, so it has nothing to do with force tug-of-war. Apparently this is the reason why writers and directors need characters to scream out needless exposition, because the only way this could have been clearer is if he screamed out "Why is it resisting me?!" or something equally obnoxious. #3 and 4 I'll grant you. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
On January 15 2016 12:10 Plansix wrote: We have never seen someone naturally learn the force or their abilities. People had to learn it on their own at some point. Luke picks up using the force pretty quickly and blocks blaster bolts after a couple hours training. Pulling off two force tricks during the course of the movie seemed totally reasonable. Why in the world would you expect someone learning the force "naturally" to be orders of magnitude faster than learning it under supervision? If anything that reinforces the point. On January 15 2016 13:35 WolfintheSheep wrote: 5) Not sure why people miss something so blatantly obvious from this scene. Ren tries pulling first, and it doesn't move at all. They are pulling in the exact same direction, so it has nothing to do with force tug-of-war. Apparently this is the reason why writers and directors need characters to scream out needless exposition, because the only way this could have been clearer is if he screamed out "Why is it resisting me?!" or something equally obnoxious. Even if you ignore Kylo completely, she's still doing something after 20 minutes that Luke struggled to do after 2 years. Every display of force-powers Luke (and Anakin, for that matter) manage in their early phases is quick-reflex stuff. They don't start using it to directly affect their surroundings until much later. On current evidence, Rey is far and away the fastest-learning force user the series has ever shown us. I don't think that's in dispute. Whether you consider her degree of ability to be acceptable or over the line is up to you, I guess, but it's definitely over the line for me. | ||
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oBlade
United States5749 Posts
When she broke the space kraken tentacles, she was tracking it through like 25 CCTV monitors. It was a cartoony sequence, but didn't that seem a little bit more than human, what she did? I'm not saying these are definitely instances of touching the force, just seemed like an argument could be made (same as Luke shooting the blast doors). Why do you think the Force is directional (as it were)? Was there a Force tug-of-war in the prequels or something that I don't remember? I didn't think the lightsaber would necessarily move if two people were pulling it, even if they were in the same direction. I know Ren is the first one shown on-screen pulling it, but I assumed Rey was pulling off-camera at the same time? I guess what you're saying is the lightsaber is somehow deciding where to go, which is also a behavior we've not seen in an inanimate object before in SW, even one as symbolic as a lightsaber. In that case, you're saying the lightsaber chose the light side, not that it necessarily obeyed the more powerful Force user (or rather the more powerful Force pull at that time)? | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On January 15 2016 06:11 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Rey doesn't use the lightsaber wrong. Stabbing is right( and done by Vader). They just did the wrong choreography because movements need to be exaggerated because Hollywood. There's a reason why after the invention of gunfire and the disapperance of armor, the rapier became the most popular duelling weapon; it was the most efficient. Stabbing is superior to slashing attacks in many respects. Now, you want to see a movie where a fight looks like an Olympic fencing bout? I would. But 99% of the people wouldn't. And their money votes on what happens. By the way, stabbing with a stick is rather pointless, literally. It will be harmless. Basically everything you have said about martial arts is wrong. I recommend learning more about the history of arms and armor. (Hint: thrusting weapons are good against armor, slashing ones against unarmored foes. Rapiers took the form they did to be as quick as possible (not because thrusting is better; try fencing with a sport saber and see how well thrusting all the time works for you)... lightsabers are light by their nature.) | ||
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