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On January 15 2016 20:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:
You can't make a big deal out of the bowcaster being really powerful, then rely on it hitting someone to explain a key element of struggle but have the damage done be inconsistent with what we've been shown. Well, of course you can, but it sure seems weird to me to emphasise something, use it as a plot point, but have that plot point disagree with what's been shown. That's the worst kind of inconsistency to me.
Yeah, it didn't add up at all. Earlier in the movie, Han was acting like in 40 years he had never once borrowed and shot Chewie's weapon before. It seems like they wanted a way to nerf Kylo Ren and thought, "why not give Chewie something to do?"
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I am somehow getting the feeling Star Wars "aficionados" are generally going "not bad, actually liked it" with a bunch of other people going "nerds love to nitpick, right ? LET'S NITPICK".
Interesting.......
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I have noticed a stark divide between people I know who were into the EU and those who dropped off after the prequels disappointed them. Most of the folks that really just love the 4-6 liked it a lot. The folks into the EU are like 50/50.
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On January 16 2016 04:06 HeatEXTEND wrote:I am somehow getting the feeling Star Wars "aficionados" are generally going "not bad, actually liked it" with a bunch of other people going "nerds love to nitpick, right ? LET'S NITPICK". Interesting.......
I honestly did not expect any other outcome to be possible. There was zero doubt in my mind that the general consensus would be PT < TFA <= OT with a portion of the population going full "Star Trek" irrational on it. The only question would be how good it would be within that range. Overall it played safe (and probably had to for the sake of the reputation of Star Wars after the prequels) but did not disappoint.
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Canada11496 Posts
I honestly find the concept of plot armour largely unhelpful except in a very narrow sense: blatant character immunity out of keeping with the universe in which it is set. The degree to which people claim plot armour on characters that don't die, makes me think the modern ideal story should actually just be a series of short stories where the cast of characters are killed off every 10 minutes or (20 pages) or else told like Miklós Jancsó's The Red and the White with no central characters at all.
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On January 16 2016 04:21 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 04:06 HeatEXTEND wrote:I am somehow getting the feeling Star Wars "aficionados" are generally going "not bad, actually liked it" with a bunch of other people going "nerds love to nitpick, right ? LET'S NITPICK". Interesting....... I honestly did not expect any other outcome to be possible. There was zero doubt in my mind that the general consensus would be PT < TFA <= OT with a portion of the population going full "Star Trek" irrational on it. The only question would be how good it would be within that range. Overall it played safe (and probably had to for the sake of the reputation of Star Wars after the prequels) but did not disappoint.
The fan base is too diverse and expecting too many different things, and financial pressure is too strong, for everyone to be happy, of that there's no doubt. And films have moved on from the originals, so TFA was going to have to be notably better to have anything like the same impact. I still say there are some basic things not connected to what sort of fan you are that could have been avoided, but oh well. You're right, it kept almost as many people happy as you could expect, though I think it's going to be remembered a little worse than it might have been (and also a hell of a lot better that it might have been!) But hey, there are still a lot of people who think Revenge of the Sith is a good film, so whatever.
On January 16 2016 04:18 Plansix wrote:
I have noticed a stark divide between people I know who were into the EU and those who dropped off after the prequels disappointed them. Most of the folks that really just love the 4-6 liked it a lot. The folks into the EU are like 50/50.
Well count me out of that, along with the people I've talked to "IRL". I don't know enough about the EU interest of those I've talked to online to comment on them. I love the originals, despise the prequels, and didn't touch the EU (well, I read one novel and one comic 15-20 years ago, and I guess I played games, but yeah) and I don't love TFA. I think it's got some great elements but my overall reaction is pretty mixed, as you've probably picked up, and that's been the response of all my friends of similar involvement in Star Wars. 
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The EU wasn't very good, and I say this as someone who was quite into it back in the day. Zahn's trilogy and sequel duology were the only casualties anyone could care about.
I have little trouble accepting this new canon, if and only if the other two movies are good. I say that because one movie plus supporting media are not enough to constitute a canon.
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My biggest problem with the film is JJ’s foot to the floor pacing that is present in most of his films, with the exception of Super 8. The movie could have used more room to breath during the moments on the Falcon and when they were at the Rebellion’s base. The film wouldn’t have been harmed by being 5-10 minutes longer. I also don’t like how JJ directs “space” in movies, where position and camera work are just workman like.
But I think it is all worth it for his amazing casting skills. Everything he casts has amazing actors, from Star Trek(you can’t say the actors are the problem with those films) all the way back to Felicity. And JJ loved movies like Star Wars, ET and other films of that era. So I take those short comings in stride. Plus he let the actors handle a wordless mental battle with just facial expressions and camera lenses adjustments and it totally worked, which I did not think they would do.
But all the people who are as deep into movies as I am loved it. And all of my friends with kids were very happy to bring to children to a new Star Wars film that wasn’t CGI for evil.
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Yeah, I always heard the Thrawn trilogy was great and meant to read it some time but never got round to it. Still worth reading, would you say?
But some of the stuff I've heard about - the weird Yuuzhan Vong aliens, say - sounds straight terrible.
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The Thrawn Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn duology are the only worthy pieces of the EU even worth looking at. But they are good stories, you should read them.
The Abrams-isms in this movie were apparent and noticeable. Which is alright because I like Abrams, but I want to see a different style next movie for sure.
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On January 16 2016 06:13 Plansix wrote:
But all the people who are as deep into movies as I am loved it.
I mean, I dunno how deep into movies you are, so maybe you're Tarantino level (supposedly he watches a minimum of three a day), but I watch plenty films, and by no means just Hollywood nonsense either. . .I really don't think every cinephile loved it.
On January 16 2016 06:16 LegalLord wrote:
The Thrawn Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn duology are the only worthy pieces of the EU even worth looking at. But they are good stories, you should read them.
Alrighty, some time when I have a gap in my reading schedule and want something light I'll pick them up.
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Thrawn
XWing/ Rogue Squadron
Something something Jedi Academy
I watched Southpaw the other day, and oh man was that movie an emotional rollercoaster (one that goes down down down for longer than you'd expect before finally going back up). In comparison, I think a pithy answer is that TFA was almost a pure action movie, not a drama. I wish it was more drama, or at least it had been done better. I agree with P6's points though-- solid casting, solid visuals, the movie has it's moments but it didn't feel like it had a soul. That's why it feels like a really well-done fan movie than a real part of the Star Wars saga.
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I also agree about the Zahn books. They are not amazing, but they are fun. They are pre-Jedi are everything, other people are stupid weaklings and Luke is not a demi-god. It also addresses the fact that Luke has ZERO idea how to train a Jedi or where to start. Its more sci-fi than space opera and deals with a lot of “logistics” of the Empire. It shouldn’t have been 3 books, but it was ok.
Anything after that is a sick dip in quality until to get to Dragon Ball Z Jedi knocking fleets out of the sky with “force storms”. And the Skywalker family flip flopping sith vs Jedi all day, because they are the only important family in the entire galaxy.
On January 16 2016 06:20 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 06:13 Plansix wrote:
But all the people who are as deep into movies as I am loved it. I mean, I dunno how deep into movies you are, so maybe you're Tarantino level (supposedly he watches a minimum of three a day), but I watch plenty films, and by no means just Hollywood nonsense either. . .I really don't think every cinephile loved it.
I walk talking about my friends and I. We are not deep into experiential film making, but we will enjoy a Kurosawa film or Amile in turn. Or all watch John Wick because that movie is amazing. I love digging into how movies are made, but as a hobby.
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Eh, I'm not really a sci-fi fan, more space fantasy. Oh well, I'm sure it'll be worth reading.
Agree with what you're saying, ticklishmusic. TFA gets so much right, but crucial elements are just MIA. I think it's way too fast, but then the slower parts are the worst done in the film.
Edit to respond to the edit: Best part of Kurosawa films is every seven seconds someone going "Heh!" or however you'd write it. Makes me wonder if that's actually how Japanese talk, or his idea of samurai culture, or what. And John Wick was the best action film since The Matrix, I have zero idea why it got so little hype. Mad Max was good and everything, but I don't get why it got all the focus.
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On January 15 2016 20:13 SkrollK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 19:06 levelping wrote:
... Ren is show to have taken a shot to the gut from a mini-rocket launcher... Do we really want to down this path again ? Come on, Wookie bowcaster are know to be like heavy blasters. They can just blow someone's up to 3-4 meters away while exploding, and can just instakill any human-ish life form in a direct shot. So why the fuck did Kylo Ren took a direct hit and then was able to run/fight/whatever ? Answer... PLOT ARMOR !!!!! This is sooooooooo lazy storytelling it nearly makes me mad.. They could have just : - make Chewie just miss slightly so it hits some kind of idle piece that hit Ren and wounds him. - make Chewie hit him but he just deflects badly with lightsaber and get hit by some debris that wounds him. - or it just opens the floor under him and he nearly falls, wounding his leg while falling. - ... You can just have thousands of ideas better than mines by just spending 1min thinking about it. Instead of what they just build up Chewie's weapon during the whole movie and then, it fires on Ren, and then you tell yourself : "Why the fuck did stormtroopers die when they were hit ? Why didn't they just run and fight after that little shitty weap fires ? It makes no sense."
Except that comparative resistance to physical damage is a well-established Jedi trait. Vader straight up takes Han's very powerful DL-44 to the hand and doesn't seem to so much as care. Luke takes a blaster to his hand without any preparation and yelps, but is ultimately ok. Leia takes a hit that would kill most anyone but survives somewhat wounded. In the PT, Obi-Wan shrugs off numerous sources of damage in the fight with Jango Fett. The Jedi Jango kills in the arena takes several blaster hits before going down. In the new movie Rey's tree collision should have killed or paralyzed her and she did just fine.
Honestly, there are very few force traits that are better established.
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On January 16 2016 06:31 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Eh, I'm not really a sci-fi fan, more space fantasy. Oh well, I'm sure it'll be worth reading.
Agree with what you're saying, ticklishmusic. TFA gets so much right, but crucial elements are just MIA. I think it's way too fast, but then the slower parts are the worst done in the film.
Edit to respond to the edit: Best part of Kurosawa films is every seven seconds someone going "Heh!" or however you'd write it. Makes me wonder if that's actually how Japanese talk, or his idea of samurai culture, or what. And John Wick was the best action film since The Matrix, I have zero idea why it got so little hype. Mad Max was good and everything, but I don't get why it got all the focus.
It was a lot budget film that clocked in at $20 million and they made most of that up on the back end in international viewings and sales. They lack of hype was simply that they didn’t want to blow $50 on marketing.
The coolest part about the movie is that it was made with the same stunt crew from the Matrix. Keanu is the one who made that movie happen and wanted to make another movie with that crew. After the Matrix he gave the part of his royalties to the stun crew because he was such good friends with them as well. An some really expensive motorcycles.
Basically Keanu is the one of the nicest people on the planet and likes making fun action movies with that crew. And they happen to be really, really good at it.
Mad Max was in a different league of budget and marketing. Hype is based on marketing $$$ and nothing else.
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John Wick was a great movie and I think I'm going to watch it tonight. I think the comparison shows a little bit how sometimes having a smaller budget is better than a big one.
Mad Max got 10 noms for the Oscars, but I don't see it winning much more than one or two production ones. Speaking of, I predict the Revenant will win in all but 2 categories... one being Best Actor.
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On January 16 2016 06:37 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 20:13 SkrollK wrote:On January 15 2016 19:06 levelping wrote:
... Ren is show to have taken a shot to the gut from a mini-rocket launcher... Do we really want to down this path again ? Come on, Wookie bowcaster are know to be like heavy blasters. They can just blow someone's up to 3-4 meters away while exploding, and can just instakill any human-ish life form in a direct shot. So why the fuck did Kylo Ren took a direct hit and then was able to run/fight/whatever ? Answer... PLOT ARMOR !!!!! This is sooooooooo lazy storytelling it nearly makes me mad.. They could have just : - make Chewie just miss slightly so it hits some kind of idle piece that hit Ren and wounds him. - make Chewie hit him but he just deflects badly with lightsaber and get hit by some debris that wounds him. - or it just opens the floor under him and he nearly falls, wounding his leg while falling. - ... You can just have thousands of ideas better than mines by just spending 1min thinking about it. Instead of what they just build up Chewie's weapon during the whole movie and then, it fires on Ren, and then you tell yourself : "Why the fuck did stormtroopers die when they were hit ? Why didn't they just run and fight after that little shitty weap fires ? It makes no sense." Except that comparative resistance to physical damage is a well-established Jedi trait. Vader straight up takes Han's very powerful DL-44 to the hand and doesn't seem to so much as care. Luke takes a blaster to his hand without any preparation and yelps, but is ultimately ok. Leia takes a hit that would kill most anyone but survives somewhat wounded. In the PT, Obi-Wan shrugs off numerous sources of damage in the fight with Jango Fett. The Jedi Jango kills in the arena takes several blaster hits before going down. In the new movie Rey's tree collision should have killed or paralyzed her and she did just fine. Honestly, there are very few force traits that are better established.
Is that a "force trait"? I always figured blasters only killed when they hit the torso and when they hit the periphery they just give a really bad bruise and a burn or something but won't do permanent damage. Do any non-force sensitives get hit in the periphery and act any differently to Leia, who cowers in extreme pain for a bit but recovers? I don't recall any analogue. And Luke totally shrugs off that blaster bolt because it hits his prosthetic, no? Same goes for Vader. No idea on the prequels and what they messed up with it though.
And yeah, Keanu is like the nicest guy in the history of ever if half the stories people tell are true.
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I would argue that the resistance to damage has less to do with the force and more to do with being heroes in action movies. Everyone has the ability to go full John McClane, who should have died several times during the course of that film just from jumping off of stuff.
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Canada11496 Posts
On January 16 2016 06:16 LegalLord wrote:
The Thrawn Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn duology are the only worthy pieces of the EU even worth looking at. But they are good stories, you should read them.
The Abrams-isms in this movie were apparent and noticeable. Which is alright because I like Abrams, but I want to see a different style next movie for sure.
I would actually recommend the X-wing series over the Thrawn duology. I like Zahn's writing (the Zahn trilogy is the best and I would still recommend it) and went on to read his Conqueror's Trilogy and his Night Train to Rigel series. However, by the time you get to the duology, the other writers had taken away the tools to make the Empire a significant threat. The New Republic had become too all encompassing and nothing in the galaxy could really deal with it. The Bantam writers undercut the Empire far too quickly. I hope this new canon avoids that mistake. In both the X-wing series and the Thrawn trilogy the Empire is still a huge threat, but you still get the New Republic, rather than a rehash of the Rebel Alliance. Plus Aaron Allston writes some pretty funny scenes (I think.)
Also, while the Thrawn trilogy felt that they could be Episodes 7 8 and 9 with the original cast, the X-wing series puts the main film characters into supporting roles (you'd bump into them on occasion) and built a new cast of characters, focusing on a group of pilots Band of Brothers style. Also, I think outside Zahn, Allston found the best use of Han- put him a command role because he's competent, but he hates the formalities and never really feels like he fits within the command structure. You see his rogue tendencies tempered by the responsibility of command, but you also get his outside the box thinking.
Pretty much everything else in the EU could be skipped, though Shadows of the Empire isn't bad.
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EPT
