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On January 15 2016 11:38 WolfintheSheep wrote:
And continuity-wise it makes sense. He was a barely trained padawan taught by a (mostly) self-taught Jedi, and had no one to teach him to use his emotions like a proper Sith should.
"Barely trained padawan" who wiped out or turned the entire Jedi Order.
IDK man, IDK. I guess he could have just poisoned their food?
On January 15 2016 14:01 Belisarius wrote:
On current evidence, Rey is far and away the fastest-learning force user the series has ever shown us. I don't think that's in dispute. Whether you consider her degree of ability to be acceptable or over the line is up to you, I guess, but it's definitely over the line for me.
Yeah, this is kind of the central issue with the film as far as I'm concerned. If others are OK with it then of course that's up to them. To me, it not only undermines the journey of Rey, it undermines Luke's journey too. It's not half as bad as the way the prequels ruined the originals, but it's annoying.
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On January 15 2016 14:15 oBlade wrote:
Why do you think the Force is directional (as it were)? Was there a Force tug-of-war in the prequels or something that I don't remember? I didn't think the lightsaber would necessarily move if two people were pulling it, even if they were in the same direction. I know Ren is the first one shown on-screen pulling it, but I assumed Rey was pulling off-camera at the same time? I guess what you're saying is the lightsaber is somehow deciding where to go, which is also a behavior we've not seen in an inanimate object before in SW, even one as symbolic as a lightsaber. In that case, you're saying the lightsaber chose the light side, not that it necessarily obeyed the more powerful Force user (or rather the more powerful Force pull at that time)?
Remember Yoda and Tyrannus doing force push/pull duels? Clearly directional.
And we saw that behaviour in the lightsaber before, like one hour before that. Even if it's not something as grandiose as "choosing" someone, it clearly has affinity to Rey over anyone else, for whatever reason. Force stuff is force stuff.
On January 15 2016 15:30 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 11:38 WolfintheSheep wrote:
And continuity-wise it makes sense. He was a barely trained padawan taught by a (mostly) self-taught Jedi, and had no one to teach him to use his emotions like a proper Sith should. "Barely trained padawan" who wiped out or turned the entire Jedi Order. IDK man, IDK. I guess he could have just poisoned their food?
"Jedi Order"
You mean all the other untrained noobs that Luke was teaching for the first time ever?
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Luke was training people for several years. How is everyone an "untrained noob" after that time?
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I actually don't get this point about Rey becoming powerful too quickly.
So first, let's talk about the Force and Jedi powers. Just on the movies, it's clear that there are a range of powers. It's not clear that all these powers increase uniformly with Jedi training. In fact it is suggested that some people are just better at certain aspects of the Force - for example, you have those better at saber combat (Count Dooku), and those who prefer to use Force powers more (Sidious).
Second, we compare Rey with the development of Luke's and Anakin's powers. Anakin was a kid when we first meet him, but despite being something like 9 years old and having no formal training as a Jedi, he is able to (a) win a pod race; and (b) fly a star fighter and blow up a trade federation ship. Luke is a young adult, and he is able to deflect (practice) laser bolts, and of course blow up the death star by firing torpedoes down a tiny shaft, without using his targeting computer. All this with whatever training obiwan could give him on the trip to Alderaan.
Without training, Rey is able to do jedi mind tricks, force pull a light saber, and fend off Ren. She is also a great pilot, but she does not pull off a really impossible shot like Luke and the first death star.
It's important to observe that The Force Awakens also sets up two important background facts:
(i) You can sort of fight with a light sabre without jedi training - Finn holds off against Kylo Ren, and also the Melee Stormtrooper is able to fight off Finn.
(ii) The Wookie Bowcaster is basically a mini rocket launcher of sorts that blows things up.
So, are Rey's feats really that unbelievable?
She is able to pull off a jedi mind trick and force pull a light sabre, but she is not shown making impossible piloting feats like Luke or Anakin (who flew as a child). I think this is ultimately fine. Rey is more advanced in certain parts of the force than Luke/Anakin, but she also appears to be not as proficient in other areas.
She is able to win a fight against Ren, but Ren is show to have taken a shot to the gut from a mini-rocket launcher, is himself not a fully trained Sith, and may have been initially holding back to try and make Rey his apprentice (see convo at the chasm). He also took sometime to defeat Finn. I also think this is fine within the film;s own logic - the foreshadowing of the injury from the bowcaster, as well as Finn being able to fight with a lightsaber, all set up the scene as believable in the movie.
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On January 15 2016 19:06 levelping wrote:
... Ren is show to have taken a shot to the gut from a mini-rocket launcher...
Do we really want to down this path again ?
Come on, Wookie bowcaster are know to be like heavy blasters. They can just blow someone's up to 3-4 meters away while exploding, and can just instakill any human-ish life form in a direct shot.
So why the fuck did Kylo Ren took a direct hit and then was able to run/fight/whatever ?
Answer... PLOT ARMOR !!!!!
This is sooooooooo lazy storytelling it nearly makes me mad..
They could have just :
- make Chewie just miss slightly so it hits some kind of idle piece that hit Ren and wounds him.
- make Chewie hit him but he just deflects badly with lightsaber and get hit by some debris that wounds him.
- or it just opens the floor under him and he nearly falls, wounding his leg while falling.
- ...
You can just have thousands of ideas better than mines by just spending 1min thinking about it.
Instead of what they just build up Chewie's weapon during the whole movie and then, it fires on Ren, and then you tell yourself : "Why the fuck did stormtroopers die when they were hit ? Why didn't they just run and fight after that little shitty weap fires ? It makes no sense."
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Because they are storm troopers. They also can't shoot straight, despite being well trained or super clones. And plot armor saved Luke so many times. Death Star trench, Hoth, cloud city, jabbas palace.
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I agree, Ren being hit by the Bowcaster and just shrugging it off felt a bit weird... Having him being wounded by debris or being unable to fully stop/deflect it would have been "smoother".
Not a big deal either way but for sure wasn't handled perfect.
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You can't make a big deal out of the bowcaster being really powerful, then rely on it hitting someone to explain a key element of struggle but have the damage done be inconsistent with what we've been shown. Well, of course you can, but it sure seems weird to me to emphasise something, use it as a plot point, but have that plot point disagree with what's been shown. That's the worst kind of inconsistency to me.
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Like when single shots from Tie fighters blow up X wings, but can down Luke or kill R2D2? Or when Luke drops to his death, but just kidding the bottom of cloud city is covered with slides! Aye!
And it looked like the shot punched right through Ren's side, rather than explode. He isn't wearing armor.
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I have a theory to slightly explain the massive oversight of J.J. Abrams of the Bowcaster varied strength.
The bowcaster appears to be more an impact weapon then a piercing one (sends stormtroopers flying but does not go through them) as such it should have knocked Ren straight out of the tiny bridge he was standing on. This means its either very explosive or very "blunty" (sorry for the expression, no idea what to use here).
Ren is perfectly capable of holding blaster fire in place using the force (we see this when he is on Jakku). By extension he should be able to hold other more solid things as well. (operative word being should)
Now he might not have the reactive speed necessary to deflect the blast from the bowcaster, however he might have been able to "reinforce" himself/his armor using the force so to not be killed/thrown off the bridge, but not as much as to not be severely injured by it.
This way it also helps explain why he has to occasionally stop fighting Finn to refocus on the "injured" body part. He should be literally keeping himself more or less cohesive with the Force and the fight was distracting him.
It also explains how a barely trained force-user (Rey), albeit one with an obvious natural affinity to it, could outmuscle (out-Force) the lightsaber out of the hands of a proven powerful force-user (Ren). Ren was using most of his focus keeping himself intact.
Also explains why he faints so fast after he lost the fight with Rey.
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On January 15 2016 21:01 Plansix wrote:
Like when single shots from Tie fighters blow up X wings, but can down Luke or kill R2D2? Or when Luke drops to his death, but just kidding the bottom of cloud city is covered with slides! Aye!
And it looked like the shot punched right through Ren's side, rather than explode. He isn't wearing armor.
Huh?
No, not at all like that. Nobody ever emphasises that dropping in Cloud City causes death. C'mon man, did you even read my post?
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On January 15 2016 21:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 21:01 Plansix wrote:
Like when single shots from Tie fighters blow up X wings, but can down Luke or kill R2D2? Or when Luke drops to his death, but just kidding the bottom of cloud city is covered with slides! Aye!
And it looked like the shot punched right through Ren's side, rather than explode. He isn't wearing armor. Huh? No, not at all like that. Nobody ever emphasises that dropping in Cloud City causes death. C'mon man, did you even read my post?
But its the exact same thing. Luke needed to escape, so he drops to his death, but not really because of magic cloud city slides that happen to have trap doors that get him outside to be saved. Or Tie fighters shooting an X-wing once and it blowing up, but Luke take several hits, including 1 to R2D2.
Heroes and villains can get shot in action movies and get wounded. This isn't new stuff. The idea that its bad writing is stupid because all action movies do it. Its an convection of modern action films.
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On January 15 2016 20:13 SkrollK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 19:06 levelping wrote:
... Ren is show to have taken a shot to the gut from a mini-rocket launcher... Do we really want to down this path again ? Come on, Wookie bowcaster are know to be like heavy blasters. They can just blow someone's up to 3-4 meters away while exploding, and can just instakill any human-ish life form in a direct shot. So why the fuck did Kylo Ren took a direct hit and then was able to run/fight/whatever ? Answer... PLOT ARMOR !!!!! This is sooooooooo lazy storytelling it nearly makes me mad.. They could have just : - make Chewie just miss slightly so it hits some kind of idle piece that hit Ren and wounds him. - make Chewie hit him but he just deflects badly with lightsaber and get hit by some debris that wounds him. - or it just opens the floor under him and he nearly falls, wounding his leg while falling. - ... You can just have thousands of ideas better than mines by just spending 1min thinking about it. Instead of what they just build up Chewie's weapon during the whole movie and then, it fires on Ren, and then you tell yourself : "Why the fuck did stormtroopers die when they were hit ? Why didn't they just run and fight after that little shitty weap fires ? It makes no sense."
I actually disagree that this is a bad case of plot armor. Obviously all main characters are going to have plot armor. But Ren has been shown to be able to stop blaster bolts with the force, and Darth Vader could deflect them with his bare hands.
So I don't think it's unreasonable for Ren to be able to take a bowcaster bolt and still be standing. The movie doesn't need to explain everything, but it is consistent with the movie's logic that Ren partially deflected it/limited the damage using the Force.
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He had just killed his father, which was a huge struggle for him. He wasn't paying attention.
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On January 15 2016 21:32 Plansix wrote:
He had just killed his father, which was a huge struggle for him. He wasn't paying attention.
Yeah he was not pay attention which is why he got shot in the first place. If he were paying attention he could have deflected it or whatever. But it's not unreasonable for him to have some reflexive Force abilities which do not require attention.
I'm in agreement with the "this plot point is not perfect" group, but I don't think it's terrible writing or something completely in-congruent to the movie's internal logic.
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On January 15 2016 21:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 21:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:On January 15 2016 21:01 Plansix wrote:
Like when single shots from Tie fighters blow up X wings, but can down Luke or kill R2D2? Or when Luke drops to his death, but just kidding the bottom of cloud city is covered with slides! Aye!
And it looked like the shot punched right through Ren's side, rather than explode. He isn't wearing armor. Huh? No, not at all like that. Nobody ever emphasises that dropping in Cloud City causes death. C'mon man, did you even read my post? But its the exact same thing. Luke needed to escape, so he drops to his death, but not really because of magic cloud city slides that happen to have trap doors that get him outside to be saved. Or Tie fighters shooting an X-wing once and it blowing up, but Luke take several hits, including 1 to R2D2. Heroes and villains can get shot in action movies and get wounded. This isn't new stuff. The idea that its bad writing is stupid because all action movies do it. Its an convection of modern action films.
No, it's not the same thing.
If the film had deliberately drawn attention to the fact that TIE Fighters are incredibly powerful and blow up X-Wings in one hit, then it would be the same thing. But that's absolutely no what we're shown, and it's certainly not something that's emphasised.
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The bottom cloud city is covered with hero saving slides. Just in case. But Ren only getting wound, unacceptable.
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Of course that's plot armour. You can argue it's a flaw if you like, I certainly don't believe the originals are flawless - quite the opposite.
But it's not analogous to what I'm talking about.
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On January 15 2016 21:51 Plansix wrote:
The bottom cloud city is covered with hero saving slides. Just in case. But Ren only getting wound, unacceptable.
I think it can be justified as waste disposal or a release for water(-like substances) from precipitation or whatever they have in the clouds. Without chutes, the whole thing would eventually be a waste dump when citizens throw stuff out of the window. It's plot armor, but I can see a justification for it that would hold true in-universe and in reality.
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I agree and I could think of a number of reasons why that “slide” would exist and justify it, even though I know it is just there to allow Luke to escape. Even at 6 years old when I remember thinking it was a little silly. My point was that we all suspend our disbelief during an action movie. Maybe more so with movies like Star Wars. TFA isn’t any different. People can say something bothered them, but anyone could easily go back and do that for all of the films.
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EPT
