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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 24 2011 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 00:57 Skilledblob wrote:On May 24 2011 00:54 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:40 1Eris1 wrote:On May 24 2011 00:30 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:24 1Eris1 wrote:On May 23 2011 23:24 Conquest101 wrote:
Hoh boy, it's been a long time since I've posted.
I find myself wanting to defend the Starks as well. Robb's "mistake" was being too honorable if anything. While grief-stricken over his brothers' deaths, he slept with Jeyne Westerling, who was taking care of him (IIRC he got wounded by a crossbow when taking the Crag). Instead of going "oh hey, thanks for that, peace out", he chose to do the "honorable" thing and marry her. That, of course, led to the whole downward spiral culminating in the Red Wedding.
And you can't really say that anything Sansa or Arya did was evil. Misguided, sure, but not evil.
Also, speaking of Arya, she'd better not be permanently blind, or I'm going to rage. They are not evil, they merely commited evil acts. This goes for for some of the lannisters too. Jaime doesnt push Bran out the window because he's evil he does it for "love". Its really no different then arya killing a young guard so she can escape. The only evil people, are guys like gregor clegane who commit evil acts solelyy for amusement or pleasure I'm curious to know what explanation you will have to explain how Cersei act with Lancel, how she act with Qyburn or how Tywin act with Shae and the previous lover of Tyrion. Im not arguing that all the lannisters are good, just like not all starks are. Tywin is probably evil, ill give you that, but cersei is borderline. The only person that loves her is the one person she cant be with, thats gotta be frustrating. Couple that with being a strong willed woman in a male dominated society and you start to pity her Then tell me which Starks are bad ? Every time they killed it wasto survive/ for revenge / for power. and the lannisters are different? So murdering the whore of Tyrion is for survive revenge or power ? Killing a bunch of Night Guards is for power ? Using Lancel as a sexual substitution while Jaime is away, while having the intention to kill him as soon as Jaime come back is certainely to survive... Come on... Don't you see any difference ?
I don't think anyone will argue that Tywin is a good guy, but you can't just lump the Lannisters together in one big pot labeled evil. Yes, cersei and jaime have done bad things, but they've also done good things, same as certain Starks. It's not that black and white. They are very few Wholey Good characters in this book and most of them are dead or not main characters.
And I don't believe Cersei ever actually said she was going to murder Lancel, I believe that was just something Tyrion was speculating.
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On May 24 2011 02:51 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:57 Skilledblob wrote:On May 24 2011 00:54 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:40 1Eris1 wrote:On May 24 2011 00:30 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:24 1Eris1 wrote:On May 23 2011 23:24 Conquest101 wrote:
Hoh boy, it's been a long time since I've posted.
I find myself wanting to defend the Starks as well. Robb's "mistake" was being too honorable if anything. While grief-stricken over his brothers' deaths, he slept with Jeyne Westerling, who was taking care of him (IIRC he got wounded by a crossbow when taking the Crag). Instead of going "oh hey, thanks for that, peace out", he chose to do the "honorable" thing and marry her. That, of course, led to the whole downward spiral culminating in the Red Wedding.
And you can't really say that anything Sansa or Arya did was evil. Misguided, sure, but not evil.
Also, speaking of Arya, she'd better not be permanently blind, or I'm going to rage. They are not evil, they merely commited evil acts. This goes for for some of the lannisters too. Jaime doesnt push Bran out the window because he's evil he does it for "love". Its really no different then arya killing a young guard so she can escape. The only evil people, are guys like gregor clegane who commit evil acts solelyy for amusement or pleasure I'm curious to know what explanation you will have to explain how Cersei act with Lancel, how she act with Qyburn or how Tywin act with Shae and the previous lover of Tyrion. Im not arguing that all the lannisters are good, just like not all starks are. Tywin is probably evil, ill give you that, but cersei is borderline. The only person that loves her is the one person she cant be with, thats gotta be frustrating. Couple that with being a strong willed woman in a male dominated society and you start to pity her Then tell me which Starks are bad ? Every time they killed it wasto survive/ for revenge / for power. and the lannisters are different? So murdering the whore of Tyrion is for survive revenge or power ? Killing a bunch of Night Guards is for power ? Using Lancel as a sexual substitution while Jaime is away, while having the intention to kill him as soon as Jaime come back is certainely to survive... Come on... Don't you see any difference ? I don't think anyone will argue that Tywin is a good guy, but you can't just lump the Lannisters together in one big pot labeled evil. Yes, cersei and jaime have done bad things, but they've also done good things, same as certain Starks. It's not that black and white. They are very few Wholey Good characters in this book and most of them are dead or not main characters. And I don't believe Cersei ever actually said she was going to murder Lancel, I believe that was just something Tyrion was speculating.
Actually I don't remember Cersei doing one good thing, unless you count being very protective of her kids, and even that comes off as being selfish somehow.
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While I don't condone the way Cersei is handling protecting her kids she's just doing the same thing Catelyn is doing. Protecting her children. Cersei's is of course the more bat shit crazy way of doing it but she's doing it for the same concept. For love of her children and trying to keep them safe.
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Everything Cersei has done has been either because of her hate for Robert (explained rather succinctly in Feast when he calls her "Lya" on their wedding night), or for her blood (especially children). I don't really think you can label anything she, or any of the Lannisters (apart from Joffrey who's a little twat) as "wholly" evil.
That said, I'd really, really, really like to get a peep inside Littlefinger's head.
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On May 24 2011 02:51 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:57 Skilledblob wrote:On May 24 2011 00:54 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:40 1Eris1 wrote:On May 24 2011 00:30 WhiteDog wrote:On May 24 2011 00:24 1Eris1 wrote:On May 23 2011 23:24 Conquest101 wrote:
Hoh boy, it's been a long time since I've posted.
I find myself wanting to defend the Starks as well. Robb's "mistake" was being too honorable if anything. While grief-stricken over his brothers' deaths, he slept with Jeyne Westerling, who was taking care of him (IIRC he got wounded by a crossbow when taking the Crag). Instead of going "oh hey, thanks for that, peace out", he chose to do the "honorable" thing and marry her. That, of course, led to the whole downward spiral culminating in the Red Wedding.
And you can't really say that anything Sansa or Arya did was evil. Misguided, sure, but not evil.
Also, speaking of Arya, she'd better not be permanently blind, or I'm going to rage. They are not evil, they merely commited evil acts. This goes for for some of the lannisters too. Jaime doesnt push Bran out the window because he's evil he does it for "love". Its really no different then arya killing a young guard so she can escape. The only evil people, are guys like gregor clegane who commit evil acts solelyy for amusement or pleasure I'm curious to know what explanation you will have to explain how Cersei act with Lancel, how she act with Qyburn or how Tywin act with Shae and the previous lover of Tyrion. Im not arguing that all the lannisters are good, just like not all starks are. Tywin is probably evil, ill give you that, but cersei is borderline. The only person that loves her is the one person she cant be with, thats gotta be frustrating. Couple that with being a strong willed woman in a male dominated society and you start to pity her Then tell me which Starks are bad ? Every time they killed it wasto survive/ for revenge / for power. and the lannisters are different? So murdering the whore of Tyrion is for survive revenge or power ? Killing a bunch of Night Guards is for power ? Using Lancel as a sexual substitution while Jaime is away, while having the intention to kill him as soon as Jaime come back is certainely to survive... Come on... Don't you see any difference ? I don't think anyone will argue that Tywin is a good guy, but you can't just lump the Lannisters together in one big pot labeled evil. Yes, cersei and jaime have done bad things, but they've also done good things, same as certain Starks. It's not that black and white. They are very few Wholey Good characters in this book and most of them are dead or not main characters. And I don't believe Cersei ever actually said she was going to murder Lancel, I believe that was just something Tyrion was speculating.
I'd rather think you're the one too blind to see how the book was written. As it is right now, Tyrion has decided to rise against his own familly and help Daenerys while Jaime also decided to turn the head and forget about his sister. And they did that because, and since the beginning, they had remorse about what they did for Cersei / Tywin / the Lannisters. Using corpses as test subjects is not "evil" ?
I'm not saying they're all "bad", like they are dark sith or something, of course it's not that easy, but they were what was closer to the main vilain during the first two books, except for Tyrion who was more or less hated by everyone in his familly except Jaime (who was non existent during the entire second book, in cell).
Now sure they are changing, since Martin killed all his PoV or made them useless to the main storyline, but saying they are, since the beginning, just the "opponent" of the Starks is absolutly wrong.
The first two books were written so that you take the side of Tyrion (who said he liked Jon Snow / Robert Baratheon / Ned Stark and hated Cersei / Tywin) and the whole Stark familly. That's how Martin explain the way he whrite : he makes it in a way that you take the side of the PoV.
PoV of the first 2 books :
Jon
Sansa
Arya
Catelyn
Bran
Ned
Tyrion
Daenerys
Davos
Theon
All of them are ennemies of the Lannister (yes Tyrion is too, he hate his sister / tywin more than Robert or Ned, just keep by their side because of his sense of the familly). It's actually the only thing they all have in common.
Edit: I added Theon, which I had forgot like a noob, thx to my fellow TLer.
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One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?
Btw, to the above poster, you forgot Theon as a viewpoint character in the first two books. Not that it matters to your point.
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On May 24 2011 03:48 Maginor wrote:
One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?
Btw, to the above poster, you forgot Theon as a viewpoint character in the first two books. Not that it matters to your point.
edit: man I think I read your first sentence wrong.
Basically you can say that Varys works for who he feels is fit to bring peace to the realm. Though it is still not clear why he does care about the realm at all because he is from one of the free cities
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On May 24 2011 03:48 Maginor wrote:
One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?
We dont really know why people like Varys and Illyrio want the Dothraki in Westeros. Personally I think it has something to do with the conflict in the north, but nothing is certain. They could merely be interested in seeing Westeros burn.
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On May 24 2011 03:57 GDbushido wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 03:48 Maginor wrote:
One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?
We dont really know why people like Varys and Illyrio want the Dothraki in Westeros. Personally I think it has something to do with the conflict in the north, but nothing is certain. They could merely be interested in seeing Westeros burn.
I wasn't talking about in-story characters, but about the viewers. But fair enough. I think Illyrio's motives are pretty obvious. He sees that the Targaryens have a small chance of taking back power, and if he was the one that helped them, he will be handsomely rewarded. He doesn't have that much to lose either. He invested some money in the venture, but it was probably little in relation to the wealth he posesses. Look at it as a high-risk/high-gain investment. When it comes to Varys, it is not that obvious. After all he aided Robert in trying to assassinate Daenerys. It may be that he wants to leave his options open so that whoever ends up in power, he can claim that he supported them from the beginning. Also, he claims to serve the realm, and maybe he actually thinks what is best for the realm is to have the Targaryens back in power to have a stable dynasty.
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On May 24 2011 03:48 Maginor wrote:
One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?
Btw, to the above poster, you forgot Theon as a viewpoint character in the first two books. Not that it matters to your point.
Well they might change their mind when we get to the part where Dany saves Maegi and what happens afterwards (Maegi explanation why she did what she did). I too didn't really understood what they are until I got to that part in the book.
As for Varys, he just might be playing Illyrio for his own gains while not really wanting Dany and Dothraki to invade. Or maybe by killing Dany he hoped Khal Drogo would get enraged and give Viserys the army to win the throne. He could not have known how huge a fool Viserys was.
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On May 24 2011 03:28 elt wrote:
Everything Cersei has done has been either because of her hate for Robert (explained rather succinctly in Feast when he calls her "Lya" on their wedding night), or for her blood (especially children). I don't really think you can label anything she, or any of the Lannisters (apart from Joffrey who's a little twat) as "wholly" evil.
I don't want to get into the philosophical question of what is evil and what is not, but I find it really hard to find redeeming qualities for Cersei. She doesn't do things because she hates Robert, she does them for her own selfish personal gain. Joffrey was just her way to get ultimate power when she herself as a woman couldn't accomplish the same.
And like her actions weren't bad enough, once we get inside her head in AFFC we find out she is even worse. She has zero respect for anyone, she only uses people and hates on them under her breath. Even worse she's a complete fool with her schemes, everyone is outplaying her and she almost manages to ruin the kingdom before she gets caught. Even Robert was a sound ruler compared to her, at least he kept the competent people rule. Cersei brings her own "pawns" who are not only stupid but abandon her at the first sight of trouble.
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Littlefinger is clearly the GrandMaster of The Game of Thrones.
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On May 24 2011 04:27 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 03:28 elt wrote:
Everything Cersei has done has been either because of her hate for Robert (explained rather succinctly in Feast when he calls her "Lya" on their wedding night), or for her blood (especially children). I don't really think you can label anything she, or any of the Lannisters (apart from Joffrey who's a little twat) as "wholly" evil.
I don't want to get into the philosophical question of what is evil and what is not, but I find it really hard to find redeeming qualities for Cersei. She doesn't do things because she hates Robert, she does them for her own selfish personal gain. Joffrey was just her way to get ultimate power when she herself as a woman couldn't accomplish the same. And like her actions weren't bad enough, once we get inside her head in AFFC we find out she is even worse. She has zero respect for anyone, she only uses people and hates on them under her breath. Even worse she's a complete fool with her schemes, everyone is outplaying her and she almost manages to ruin the kingdom before she gets caught. Even Robert was a sound ruler compared to her, at least he kept the competent people rule. Cersei brings her own "pawns" who are not only stupid but abandon her at the first sight of trouble.
By that time, she has lost both her father and son, though. She is much more crazy then than earlier. But I still agree she doesn't have many redeeming qualities. I think some people may mistake her human qualities for redeeming qualities. Because she have legit reasons to be angry and actual motives for what she does rather than being evil randomly doesn't make her actions forgiveable. It just makes her more interesting, I guess.
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I dont see how anyone can read AFFC and not feel any pity for Cersei.
1) loses mother in early childhood
2) major absentee father
3) loses best childhood friend, still traumatized (nightmares, etc)
That's already a recipe for a seriously fucked up individual.
Then there's the incredibly oppressive environment she grows up in, which she probably hates about as much as Arya currently loathes hers. Then she's married (sold) to a distant, drunk, lecherous husband and is generally miserable for the next seventeen years. At this point the only joy she finds in life is her children, but because of that crazy shit with the maegi she has all kinds of control issues with them. Then Myrcella goes off to Dorne and Joffrey dies. Did I miss anything?*
The point is...is Cersei totally fucking nuts, especially by the fourth book? Absolutely. But I think she, like most folks, came by her flaws honestly.
*also has near-death experience the day Myrcella leaves (instigated by someone, perhaps? Varys? Littlefinger?)
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^in regards to number 3. Wasn't Cersei the one that killed her?
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On May 24 2011 05:00 GDbushido wrote:
I dont see how anyone can read AFFC and not feel any pity for Cersei.
1) loses mother in early childhood
2) major absentee father
3) loses best childhood friend, still traumatized (nightmares, etc)
That's already a recipe for a seriously fucked up individual.
Then there's the incredibly oppressive environment she grows up in, which she probably hates about as much as Arya currently loathes hers. Then she's married (sold) to a distant, drunk, lecherous husband and is generally miserable for the next seventeen years. At this point the only joy she finds in life is her children, but because of that crazy shit with the maegi she has all kinds of control issues with them. Then Myrcella goes off to Dorne and Joffrey dies. Did I miss anything?
The point is...is Cersei totally fucking nuts (especially by the fourth book)? Absolutely. But I think she, like most folks, came by her flaws honestly.
Its those three reasons plus the prophecy and her relationship with Jamie make her to crazy and paranoid.
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On May 24 2011 02:34 Sevryn wrote:
When syrio talked about there only being one god and it being death did anyone else think he might be a faceless one?
On May 24 2011 02:44 Jyvblamo wrote:
There's been serious speculation that Jaqen H'gar and Syrio are the same person, but I'm not sure I buy that.
I do not think that plausible either. A more likely explanation is that (as hinted by Arya's stay in the "House of Black and White" in Braavos) braavosi all share beliefs in 'one god above all' - the Many-Faced God, who is death itself (just as Syrio says in episode 6 of the series). That's why Braavos has a temple for all the gods people worship - because they think they're sort of irrelevant, and their god stands above them all.
On May 24 2011 04:06 Maginor wrote:
I wasn't talking about in-story characters, but about the viewers. But fair enough. I think Illyrio's motives are pretty obvious. He sees that the Targaryens have a small chance of taking back power, and if he was the one that helped them, he will be handsomely rewarded. He doesn't have that much to lose either. He invested some money in the venture, but it was probably little in relation to the wealth he posesses. Look at it as a high-risk/high-gain investment. When it comes to Varys, it is not that obvious. After all he aided Robert in trying to assassinate Daenerys. It may be that he wants to leave his options open so that whoever ends up in power, he can claim that he supported them from the beginning. Also, he claims to serve the realm, and maybe he actually thinks what is best for the realm is to have the Targaryens back in power to have a stable dynasty.
I think saying "aided Robert trying to assasinate Daenerys" might not be that obvious. Yes, he nodded at the notion of the murder in the small council meeting, but do you really think if he wanted Dany dead, he'd have butchered it so carelessly? He's the master of whisperers after all. I think Varys' plan was a bit deeper than that. He wanted to act like he's not on Dany's side (which we know that he is, for some reason), and maybe speed up the dothraki invasion a bit ("delay, you say, make haste, I reply!") by angering Khal Drogo. I'm pretty sure he knows how dothraki ways are, and is able to manipulate them when he needs to.
Another point to consider is that he's not that powerful, he can't state his opinions in the open. Maybe he didn't want to draw suspicions on himself, that's why he didn't speak up against Robert's idea? Remember, when Ned loses the conspiration game and gets killed off, Varys knows he can't save him (even though he would want to, as he's the honorable man he was looking for to help keeping the realm in one piece). The most he does is to make the arrangements to send Ned to the Wall, and even that gets shattered to pieces by the more powerful players of the game...
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I agree with those sentiments, but that was still a large risk he took if he did not want the assassin to succeed. He could not know that Jorah had second thoughts about betraying Dany, and to be frank, she would most likely have died if Jorah wasn't there. So I still think he has multiple plans depending on the outcome of different events.
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On May 24 2011 05:06 Naib wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 02:34 Sevryn wrote:
When syrio talked about there only being one god and it being death did anyone else think he might be a faceless one? Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 02:44 Jyvblamo wrote:
There's been serious speculation that Jaqen H'gar and Syrio are the same person, but I'm not sure I buy that. I do not think that plausible either. A more likely explanation is that (as hinted by Arya's stay in the "House of Black and White" in Braavos) braavosi all share beliefs in 'one god above all' - the Many-Faced God, who is death itself (just as Syrio says in episode 6 of the series). That's why Braavos has a temple for all the gods people worship - because they think they're sort of irrelevant, and their god stands above them all. Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 04:06 Maginor wrote:
I wasn't talking about in-story characters, but about the viewers. But fair enough. I think Illyrio's motives are pretty obvious. He sees that the Targaryens have a small chance of taking back power, and if he was the one that helped them, he will be handsomely rewarded. He doesn't have that much to lose either. He invested some money in the venture, but it was probably little in relation to the wealth he posesses. Look at it as a high-risk/high-gain investment. When it comes to Varys, it is not that obvious. After all he aided Robert in trying to assassinate Daenerys. It may be that he wants to leave his options open so that whoever ends up in power, he can claim that he supported them from the beginning. Also, he claims to serve the realm, and maybe he actually thinks what is best for the realm is to have the Targaryens back in power to have a stable dynasty. I think saying "aided Robert trying to assasinate Daenerys" might not be that obvious. Yes, he nodded at the notion of the murder in the small council meeting, but do you really think if he wanted Dany dead, he'd have butchered it so carelessly? He's the master of whisperers after all. I think Varys' plan was a bit deeper than that. He wanted to act like he's not on Dany's side (which we know that he is, for some reason), and maybe speed up the dothraki invasion a bit ("delay, you say, make haste, I reply!") by angering Khal Drogo. I'm pretty sure he knows how dothraki ways are, and is able to manipulate them when he needs to. Another point to consider is that he's not that powerful, he can't state his opinions in the open. Maybe he didn't want to draw suspicions on himself, that's why he didn't speak up against Robert's idea? Remember, when Ned loses the conspiration game and gets killed off, Varys knows he can't save him (even though he would want to, as he's the honorable man he was looking for to help keeping the realm in one piece). The most he does is to make the arrangements to send Ned to the Wall, and even that gets shattered to pieces by the more powerful players of the game...
I often wonder about Illyro. He gave Daenerys the dragons, sent her to Khal Drogo. Then later, he sent her Barristan to lead her queensguard.
I don't think he's some merchant out for a payday if/when Dany sits on the Iron throne.
Obviously this is just speculation, but I sense in the later books we'll find out that a lot of what's happened to Daenerys was planned out by forces unknown.
As for Varys, I view him as a "true neutral" sort of character. He does what he does to keep the peace, without loyalty to any one side. And as things stand Daenerys is about the only chance at reuniting the seven kingdoms.
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Yea, but I don't think those forces are human. It's more like "destiny", or the gods or whatever. Obviously there is something going on there with the Song of Ice and Fire prophecies and the prophecies about the three headed dragon. (Look behind you! It's a three headed dragon! -- sorry.) I never had the feeling that Illyrio was the agent of anybody or that his motives were influenced by anything other than personal gain.
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EPT
