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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 23 2011 22:05 1Eris1 wrote:
Calling the Lannisters evil is very subjective, the same with calling the Starks good. Sansa betrays her family, Arya kills innocent people, Robb betrays his friends for lust etc
Hm well I think that pushing Bran down to his (potential) death intentionally was a definite, evil moment/choice for Jaime. Don't want to get into a debate though, so I'll qualify that most, if not, all the characters in the book have made evil choices. The Lannisters, because of their importance to the story, simply get highlighted as "bad guys" who do have certain admirable traits (family loyalty, etc). As to the Starks, I don't think they're exactly "good", but they definitely take certain moral high grounds that the others do not.
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On May 23 2011 07:32 ryanAnger wrote:
Okay guys, this thread is actually good for me, because I'm halfway through book 2, but before I read a series I always read the full plot summary from wikipedia. In what way is Catelyn a "Zombie"? I know she is referred to as Stoneheart, but is she still there in the head? Does she still think how she once did, or is she literally just a zombie?
1. She went mad prior to her death after seeing Robb die
2. Her resurrection probably took away some of her humanity, especially since she was resurrected a relatively long time after her death; see Beric's resurrections, which seem to take more and more of his humanity after every death
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I think the reason we see that is because the difference between Ned and Tywin; Tywin had to fight tooth and claw to bring House Lannister to where it is now, while Ned had it easier (Robert's Rebellion aside). The North have always been honour-bound, while further down south where Winter is more giving life is more of the rat-race that we know because they're not scraping by to survive. This is reflected in how his children act, and haven't they all cocked up more than a little from their sense of (sometimes misguided) honour.
Ned's honour has its issues, just like Tywin's ambition. One wonders if things would have gone differently had Tywin's wife, Joanna, not died in childbirth.
Leaving what we as the reader know of inevitable incoming shitstorm, House Lannister has just pulled a very, very devious play for power that went pretty damn well. That said, if Cersei had the sense to bear some of Robert's babes Westeros wouldn't be in this mess. Then again, Dany may not be successful and we probably wouldn't have a story.
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On May 23 2011 22:08 Caladbolg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 22:05 1Eris1 wrote:
Calling the Lannisters evil is very subjective, the same with calling the Starks good. Sansa betrays her family, Arya kills innocent people, Robb betrays his friends for lust etc Hm well I think that pushing Bran down to his (potential) death intentionally was a definite, evil moment/choice for Jaime. Don't want to get into a debate though, so I'll qualify that most, if not, all the characters in the book have made evil choices. The Lannisters, because of their importance to the story, simply get highlighted as "bad guys" who do have certain admirable traits (family loyalty, etc). As to the Starks, I don't think they're exactly "good", but they definitely take certain moral high grounds that the others do not.
you should get rid of those ideas of good and evil. Both of them dont exist. You only have different stand and viewpoints.
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There is a good write up by Martin on why Dance was delayed and hints on who the point of view characters will be (16 pov this book) as well as other info on the writing process. http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html#cutid1
He says + Show Spoiler [ PoV spoilers] + Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Tyrion, Jon Snow and Dany's chapters make up almost half the book. Based on the spoilers here and in other interviews these are the POV's we should get: Tyrion, Dany, Jon Snow, Victorian Greyjoy, Asha Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy, Bran, Jaime, Cersei, Arya, Areo Hotah, Davos, Barriston Selmy, and three other new PoV characters, including some who are introduced for the first time, not including prologue and epilogue.
Episode 7 HBO Game of Thrones
+ Show Spoiler +I really did not like the Littlefinger sexposition scene. Only partially because of the sex, though it was over the top, but mostly because Littlefinger who makes Sansa play the role of Alayne even with no one there because you never know when a servant or someone else might walk in and hear something other wise… This man is not going to be discussing his true desires and motivations with whores or even hinting at them, especially not a whore who is new to the city from the north who could be a spy for Varys or the queen or any one else, or or who might gossip innocently about the topic with others. Trust no one he tells Ned, but discuss your most inner desires and motivations with complete strangers? Especially a whore who is willing to sell their own body for money and certainly isn’t likely to feel scruples about selling information too? It’s not even like he forgot himself in a moment of sexual passion either. It just didn’t work for me.
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On May 23 2011 22:17 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 22:08 Caladbolg wrote:On May 23 2011 22:05 1Eris1 wrote:
Calling the Lannisters evil is very subjective, the same with calling the Starks good. Sansa betrays her family, Arya kills innocent people, Robb betrays his friends for lust etc Hm well I think that pushing Bran down to his (potential) death intentionally was a definite, evil moment/choice for Jaime. Don't want to get into a debate though, so I'll qualify that most, if not, all the characters in the book have made evil choices. The Lannisters, because of their importance to the story, simply get highlighted as "bad guys" who do have certain admirable traits (family loyalty, etc). As to the Starks, I don't think they're exactly "good", but they definitely take certain moral high grounds that the others do not. you should get rid of those ideas of good and evil. Both of them dont exist. You only have different stand and viewpoints.
You know what the Christians say: "The Devils greatest trick was to convince the people that he does not exist".
There are evil and there are good people and the evil will always say something similar to you because admitting to themselves they are evil is not possible (do not take this like I am saying you are evil or anything like that :D).
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I'm not talking about good or evil, but right or wrong.
Whatever you may want to say, you cannot compare the action of a younger like arya or rickon to the acts of a Jaime or a Tywin. It is very clearly said in the books that the Lannisters are more or less corrupted: Tywin "changed" since he lost his wife, Cersei is pictured as the worst bitch (just consider how she was supposed to treat Lancel, use him when Jaime is away, and kill him after so that Jaime does not know), Jaime see his mother crying when he answer that he is indeed a knight (meaning, no you're not, regicide, betrayer, etc.). The follower of the Lannisters are almost all painted as bad guys, like clegane or sir armory lorch, both painted as the worste sir in the whole saga.
Stark are painted, on the other side, as a familly that will never corrupt itself: the few Stark that made mystakes in the book (Robb, Sansa) are more or less pictured as Tully more than Stark.
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On May 23 2011 07:55 Sanjuro wrote:
didnt Catelyn speak to Brianne in book 4? well my opinion is the house of stark downfall was caused by Catelyn, everything she did or ask just gets people in more trouble.
Catelyn and Sansa are the downfall of both the Stark House and the series. Catelyn coming back as a zombie, and Sansa not being beat/humiliated constantly really made the reading harder for me. I really hope they get killed off soon. And it better not be like Sansa & Littlefinger die, then zombie Sansa comes back!
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I didnt read the books, but the ending of episode 7 is just awesome. Can someone tell, what will happend to Ned Stark ?
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Hoh boy, it's been a long time since I've posted.
I find myself wanting to defend the Starks as well. Robb's "mistake" was being too honorable if anything. While grief-stricken over his brothers' deaths, he slept with Jeyne Westerling, who was taking care of him (IIRC he got wounded by a crossbow when taking the Crag). Instead of going "oh hey, thanks for that, peace out", he chose to do the "honorable" thing and marry her. That, of course, led to the whole downward spiral culminating in the Red Wedding.
And you can't really say that anything Sansa or Arya did was evil. Misguided, sure, but not evil.
Also, speaking of Arya, she'd better not be permanently blind, or I'm going to rage.
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On May 23 2011 23:17 Mercadia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 07:55 Sanjuro wrote:
didnt Catelyn speak to Brianne in book 4? well my opinion is the house of stark downfall was caused by Catelyn, everything she did or ask just gets people in more trouble. Catelyn and Sansa are the downfall of both the Stark House and the series. Catelyn coming back as a zombie, and Sansa not being beat/humiliated constantly really made the reading harder for me. I really hope they get killed off soon. And it better not be like Sansa & Littlefinger die, then zombie Sansa comes back!
I think Sansa made a great development over all the books and I didnt like her in the start but she does start to think for herself now so I am really interested to see what will happen to her.
Catelyn behaves like the motherhen through all the books which makes her a bit onedimensional so I am not so sure what GRRM wants to achieve with reviving her we'll have to wait and see
On May 23 2011 23:23 zYwi3c wrote:
I didnt read the books, but the ending of episode 7 is just awesome. Can someone tell, what will happend to Ned Stark ?
he dies
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On May 23 2011 23:24 Conquest101 wrote:
Hoh boy, it's been a long time since I've posted.
I find myself wanting to defend the Starks as well. Robb's "mistake" was being too honorable if anything. While grief-stricken over his brothers' deaths, he slept with Jeyne Westerling, who was taking care of him (IIRC he got wounded by a crossbow when taking the Crag). Instead of going "oh hey, thanks for that, peace out", he chose to do the "honorable" thing and marry her. That, of course, led to the whole downward spiral culminating in the Red Wedding.
Actually there are clues that magic might have been involved with this love between Robb and Jayne.
As for Ned, even worse. He dies after deciding to not put honor above everything else for once in his life. Just like the song Ironic from Alanis :D
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On May 23 2011 23:25 Skilledblob wrote:
he dies
Oh lol, that sucks, he is one of only few characters in this show that i liked.
Now i hope that Dothraki will pwn them all :D
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On May 24 2011 00:00 zYwi3c wrote:Oh lol, that sucks, he is one of only few characters in this show that i liked. Now i hope that Dothraki will pwn them all :D
want some more spoilers?
+ Show Spoiler +dothraki all die and just a few survive with Danerys and then they go and conquer Slavetrader cities and beat the shit out of everyone with imba soldiers they get from the slavetraders
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On May 24 2011 00:05 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 00:00 zYwi3c wrote:On May 23 2011 23:25 Skilledblob wrote:
he dies Oh lol, that sucks, he is one of only few characters in this show that i liked. Now i hope that Dothraki will pwn them all :D want some more spoilers? + Show Spoiler +dothraki all die and just a few survive with Danerys and then they go and conquer Slavetrader cities and beat the shit out of everyone with imba soldiers they get from the slavetraders
Imba soldiers that don't have dicks and don't wear any armor except for a pointy hat and a small shield.
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On May 24 2011 00:00 zYwi3c wrote:Oh lol, that sucks, he is one of only few characters in this show that i liked. Now i hope that Dothraki will pwn them all :D
They won't.
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On May 24 2011 00:10 pred470r wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 00:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 24 2011 00:00 zYwi3c wrote:On May 23 2011 23:25 Skilledblob wrote:
he dies Oh lol, that sucks, he is one of only few characters in this show that i liked. Now i hope that Dothraki will pwn them all :D want some more spoilers? + Show Spoiler +dothraki all die and just a few survive with Danerys and then they go and conquer Slavetrader cities and beat the shit out of everyone with imba soldiers they get from the slavetraders Imba soldiers that don't have dicks and don't wear any armor except for a pointy hat and a small shield.
lol that is the perfect description.
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On May 24 2011 00:10 pred470r wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 00:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 24 2011 00:00 zYwi3c wrote:On May 23 2011 23:25 Skilledblob wrote:
he dies Oh lol, that sucks, he is one of only few characters in this show that i liked. Now i hope that Dothraki will pwn them all :D want some more spoilers? + Show Spoiler +dothraki all die and just a few survive with Danerys and then they go and conquer Slavetrader cities and beat the shit out of everyone with imba soldiers they get from the slavetraders Imba soldiers that don't have dicks and don't wear any armor except for a pointy hat and a small shield.
and they kill puppys
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On May 23 2011 23:23 zYwi3c wrote:
I didnt read the books, but the ending of episode 7 is just awesome. Can someone tell, what will happend to Ned Stark ?
Ned Stark opens 14 Nexus. The Lannisters open 6 pool.
GG.
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EPT
