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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 04 2016 09:01 Acrofales wrote:
Huh? That's Robb...
I don't think that's the case. The visions of HotU show things that are related to Dany, which the Red Wedding is not. Besides Robb isn't presiding over anything at the RW, Walder Frey makes a big deal of giving him a common place as opposed to a throne. And I don't know why Grey Wind's eyes would follow Dany with mute appeal. I agree with tze's theory (from westeros.org) that this is some unrelated event that comes later on, and I think it will be Jon now.
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I also think it's the red wedding. It's kind of related to Dany if Robb was her second cousin or whatever. Although I could easily be wrong.
And I also think Tyrion *might* be a Targ, the evidence supporting this is that Tywin's wife was rumored to be having an affair with Aegon (there is further evidence for this in The World of Ice and Fire) and that Tyrion has dreams about dragons. Those could easily be red herrings though, it would be much more poetic imo if Jamie and Cersei turned out to be Targs (meaning Jamie committed patricide and regicide simultaneously) and Tyrion turned out to be Tywin's true son (meaning he also committed patricide, or at least finished off the process that had already started). We know twins run in the Targ bloodline but we don't know of any other dwarves afaik.
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On May 04 2016 09:27 TheFish7 wrote:
I also think it's the red wedding. It's kind of related to Dany if Robb was her second cousin or whatever. Although I could easily be wrong.
It doesn't matter much anyway, either there is some future event that looks like that and tze was right, or there isn't and it was the RW. Either way the story is unchanged. It only matters if you want to predict what Jon will do once he comes back, and I like to couple that possible future event with the character and goals of Beric and Uncat to say he will become a vengeful creature and possibly a villain depending on the type of revenge he wants to take (sounds like something GRRM would do as well, btw).
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On May 04 2016 09:05 Nebuchad wrote:I don't think that's the case. The visions of HotU show things that are related to Dany, which the Red Wedding is not. Besides Robb isn't presiding over anything at the RW, Walder Frey makes a big deal of giving him a common place as opposed to a throne. And I don't know why Grey Wind's eyes would follow Dany with mute appeal. I agree with tze's theory (from westeros.org) that this is some unrelated event that comes later on, and I think it will be Jon now.
The direct connection with what Dany saw and what later happened to Robb is a bit too hard to ignore, along with the crown he is wearing. Robb was crowned, whereas this doesn't appear to be in Jon's immediate future. The inconsistencies can be chalked up to symbolism, which is a very important part of vision and prophecy anyway. Additionally there has to be a plausible explanation for why the first vision, the four little men and the woman, is related to Dany directly, and not symbolic for the war in Westeros
You could propose that Jon will be crowned King in the North in Robb's will, but it's still far more logical to assume the vision shows the Red Wedding. Any theorising beyond that could be interesting to think about, but its pretty unlikely GRRM would go to such lengths in obfuscating the meaning of a vision, for the same reason that it's very unlikely R+L=J isn't true.
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On May 04 2016 09:43 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 09:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 04 2016 09:01 Acrofales wrote:
Huh? That's Robb... I don't think that's the case. The visions of HotU show things that are related to Dany, which the Red Wedding is not. Besides Robb isn't presiding over anything at the RW, Walder Frey makes a big deal of giving him a common place as opposed to a throne. And I don't know why Grey Wind's eyes would follow Dany with mute appeal. I agree with tze's theory (from westeros.org) that this is some unrelated event that comes later on, and I think it will be Jon now. The direct connection with what Dany saw and what later happened to Robb is a bit too hard to ignore, along with the crown he is wearing. Robb was crowned, whereas this doesn't appear to be in Jon's immediate future. The inconsistencies can be chalked up to symbolism, which is a very important part of vision and prophecy anyway. Additionally there has to be a plausible explanation for why the first vision, the four little men and the woman, is related to Dany directly, and not symbolic for the war in Westeros You could propose that Jon will be crowned King in the North in Robb's will, but it's still far more logical to assume the vision shows the Red Wedding. Any theorising beyond that could be interesting to think about, but its pretty unlikely GRRM would go to such lengths in obfuscating the meaning of a vision, for the same reason that it's very unlikely R+L=J isn't true.
Robb's crown is bronze not iron so I guess it's a symbolic crown that just happens to be in the wrong metal =)
I think it's a little funny that so much is put on symbolism when the single biggest thing that suggests this is the RW is a literal wolf head on a body, which is the least symbolic thing ever. If it is indeed the RW, I'd say it's much more likely that this is GRRM not having a super clear idea yet of what the event will look like when he wrote this, before I say it's symbolism. Which is not an unlikely scenario at all, there are a few inconsistencies of this sort throughout the book.
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On May 04 2016 09:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 09:43 marttorn wrote:On May 04 2016 09:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 04 2016 09:01 Acrofales wrote:
Huh? That's Robb... I don't think that's the case. The visions of HotU show things that are related to Dany, which the Red Wedding is not. Besides Robb isn't presiding over anything at the RW, Walder Frey makes a big deal of giving him a common place as opposed to a throne. And I don't know why Grey Wind's eyes would follow Dany with mute appeal. I agree with tze's theory (from westeros.org) that this is some unrelated event that comes later on, and I think it will be Jon now. The direct connection with what Dany saw and what later happened to Robb is a bit too hard to ignore, along with the crown he is wearing. Robb was crowned, whereas this doesn't appear to be in Jon's immediate future. The inconsistencies can be chalked up to symbolism, which is a very important part of vision and prophecy anyway. Additionally there has to be a plausible explanation for why the first vision, the four little men and the woman, is related to Dany directly, and not symbolic for the war in Westeros You could propose that Jon will be crowned King in the North in Robb's will, but it's still far more logical to assume the vision shows the Red Wedding. Any theorising beyond that could be interesting to think about, but its pretty unlikely GRRM would go to such lengths in obfuscating the meaning of a vision, for the same reason that it's very unlikely R+L=J isn't true. Robb's crown is bronze not iron so I guess it's a symbolic crown that just happens to be in the wrong metal =) I think it's a little funny that so much is put on symbolism when the single biggest thing that suggests this is the RW is a literal wolf head on a body, which is the least symbolic thing ever. If it is indeed the RW, I'd say it's much more likely that this is GRRM not having a super clear idea yet of what the event will look like when he wrote this, before I say it's symbolism. Which is not an unlikely scenario at all, there are a few inconsistencies of this sort throughout the book.
Well GRRM likes to play with the unreliable narrator, not saying that every little inconsistency is planned (that would be ridiculous) but it's part of the story so you can explain it away like that pretty much all the time :D
Also you say that the wolf head on the body is the least symbolic thing ever, but Robb only got that treatment because he was known as the wolfsman. The symbolism was the reason these soldiers did that in the first place.
Not that it's too important, all these prophecies and dreams are open to interpretation and often fit a lot of different things in some way or another. GRRM plays with that idea a lot i think.
I definitely could see Jon becoming some sort of villain though. Hard to say, GRRM needs to speed up so we can experience 'the real story' sooner rather than later -.-
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On May 04 2016 09:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 09:43 marttorn wrote:On May 04 2016 09:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 04 2016 09:01 Acrofales wrote:
Huh? That's Robb... I don't think that's the case. The visions of HotU show things that are related to Dany, which the Red Wedding is not. Besides Robb isn't presiding over anything at the RW, Walder Frey makes a big deal of giving him a common place as opposed to a throne. And I don't know why Grey Wind's eyes would follow Dany with mute appeal. I agree with tze's theory (from westeros.org) that this is some unrelated event that comes later on, and I think it will be Jon now. The direct connection with what Dany saw and what later happened to Robb is a bit too hard to ignore, along with the crown he is wearing. Robb was crowned, whereas this doesn't appear to be in Jon's immediate future. The inconsistencies can be chalked up to symbolism, which is a very important part of vision and prophecy anyway. Additionally there has to be a plausible explanation for why the first vision, the four little men and the woman, is related to Dany directly, and not symbolic for the war in Westeros You could propose that Jon will be crowned King in the North in Robb's will, but it's still far more logical to assume the vision shows the Red Wedding. Any theorising beyond that could be interesting to think about, but its pretty unlikely GRRM would go to such lengths in obfuscating the meaning of a vision, for the same reason that it's very unlikely R+L=J isn't true. Robb's crown is bronze not iron so I guess it's a symbolic crown that just happens to be in the wrong metal =) I think it's a little funny that so much is put on symbolism when the single biggest thing that suggests this is the RW is a literal wolf head on a body, which is the least symbolic thing ever. If it is indeed the RW, I'd say it's much more likely that this is GRRM not having a super clear idea yet of what the event will look like when he wrote this, before I say it's symbolism. Which is not an unlikely scenario at all, there are a few inconsistencies of this sort throughout the book.
The crown is not symbolic, as I said. It's part of what is definitely not symbolic about the vision, which is actually most of it, and it is one of the least symbolism-heavy visions in the HotU in general
Bronze and iron are considered basically the same insofar as the point of having the crown made out of it goes, by Robb, who contrasts his crown (which was made of iron as well as bronze, it should be mentioned) with those made of gold and silver. Nevertheless it's an interesting contradiction, but certainly not one that points in the direction of anyone logical other than Robb, and in fact it could just be an error by GRRM.
The only thing basically chalked up to symbolism is Robb's seating arrangement, which could easily just signify something as trivial as his position as a king. The Freys mock him by calling him the king in the north as they're maiming his body.
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Nah you'll need a little more symbolism than that. But I'll let tze explain it (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63754-hotu-showed-the-red-wedding-or-did-it):
"I've written about it elsewhere, but to recap, the vision Dany sees in the House of the Undying encompasses a number of very specific details---the iron crown, hacked-off limbs, a silent wolf-headed King whose eyes follow Dany despite the fact that he's dead (and who's holding a leg of lamb like a scepter), the feast of roast fowl and bread on wooden dishes----that don't really line up with what happened at the Red Wedding. The feasters Dany sees are eating roast fowl and bread---Cat makes a big deal out of the crappy food that Walder Frey serves, and "roast fowl" and "heels of bread" were not served at the Red Wedding. (And since Cat was fixating on the food, you'd think she'd have mentioned if the food was served on wooden dishes, like Dany sees, yet Catelyn never makes any such mention.) There are no hallmarks of a wedding in the scene Dany sees---no wedding pie, no musical instruments, no bridal cloak (basically, nothing that indicates this was a wedding feast at all). Dany specifically mentions seeing a number of hacked-off hands---but there's no mention of hands being targeted during the Red Wedding, and in fact (given that the wedding guests had no weapons), there was no reason for the Freys to target people's hands; Cat had her throat slit, Robb was stabbed, etc. The wolf king is presiding over this feast, but a big deal was made at the Red Wedding of the fact that Robb was not presiding over it.
Robb's crown has been described on multiple occasions as a bronze crown with iron swords surmounting it, covered in runes---Dany sees the wolf-headed king wearing simply "an iron crown", and given that Robb's crown was so distinctive, that makes no sense if this was meant as a vision of the Red Wedding. Moreover, we saw a completely different Stark warg, Bran, described as having the head of a wolf in a vision in ADWD, so Robb is hardly the only person who can be described as a man with a wolf's head. (Not to mention, the image of a man seated on a throne, silent, "his eyes follow[ing] Dany with mute appeal", conjures up an image more similar to that of the greenseers entombed beneath Bloodraven's hollow hill than of Robb at, or after, the Red Wedding.)
Basically, I think this vision describes some unknown future event, not the Red Wedding. Too many of the details just don't sync up."
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The wolf-headed king is dead in the vision though.
I'm 99,9% sure Jon and Bran both have plot armour and will not die.
I think it's one of the many fan theories that is a little far fetched. A lot of those have been debunked this season already, like Daario = Euron xD
Interested to see if one of Ned's allies at ToJ looks anything like the high sparrow. Personally I think that's the next theory that's gonna be dispelled.
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On May 04 2016 16:06 Laurens wrote:
The wolf-headed king is dead in the vision though.
I'm 99,9% sure Jon and Bran both have plot armour and will not die.
I think it's one of the many fan theories that is a little far fetched. A lot of those have been debunked this season already, like Daario = Euron xD
Interested to see if one of Ned's allies at ToJ looks anything like the high sparrow. Personally I think that's the next theory that's gonna be dispelled.
Darrio=Euron could still be true in the books. The complexity of slavers bay in the books with corsair king shrouded lord etc is such that book heories aren't debunked by the show
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2016 11:54 Nebuchad wrote:
Nah you'll need a little more symbolism than that. But I'll let tze explain it (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63754-hotu-showed-the-red-wedding-or-did-it):
"I've written about it elsewhere, but to recap, the vision Dany sees in the House of the Undying encompasses a number of very specific details---the iron crown, hacked-off limbs, a silent wolf-headed King whose eyes follow Dany despite the fact that he's dead (and who's holding a leg of lamb like a scepter), the feast of roast fowl and bread on wooden dishes----that don't really line up with what happened at the Red Wedding. The feasters Dany sees are eating roast fowl and bread---Cat makes a big deal out of the crappy food that Walder Frey serves, and "roast fowl" and "heels of bread" were not served at the Red Wedding. (And since Cat was fixating on the food, you'd think she'd have mentioned if the food was served on wooden dishes, like Dany sees, yet Catelyn never makes any such mention.) There are no hallmarks of a wedding in the scene Dany sees---no wedding pie, no musical instruments, no bridal cloak (basically, nothing that indicates this was a wedding feast at all). Dany specifically mentions seeing a number of hacked-off hands---but there's no mention of hands being targeted during the Red Wedding, and in fact (given that the wedding guests had no weapons), there was no reason for the Freys to target people's hands; Cat had her throat slit, Robb was stabbed, etc. The wolf king is presiding over this feast, but a big deal was made at the Red Wedding of the fact that Robb was not presiding over it.
Robb's crown has been described on multiple occasions as a bronze crown with iron swords surmounting it, covered in runes---Dany sees the wolf-headed king wearing simply "an iron crown", and given that Robb's crown was so distinctive, that makes no sense if this was meant as a vision of the Red Wedding. Moreover, we saw a completely different Stark warg, Bran, described as having the head of a wolf in a vision in ADWD, so Robb is hardly the only person who can be described as a man with a wolf's head. (Not to mention, the image of a man seated on a throne, silent, "his eyes follow[ing] Dany with mute appeal", conjures up an image more similar to that of the greenseers entombed beneath Bloodraven's hollow hill than of Robb at, or after, the Red Wedding.)
Basically, I think this vision describes some unknown future event, not the Red Wedding. Too many of the details just don't sync up."
Bread is mentioned during the red wedding - "...Tearing bread from the loaf with short strong fingers...". There's also the fact that in the vision, the dead man is holding a leg of lamb as a sceptre, which was in fact the main course at the RW. So the roast fowl is the only inconsistency there.
The book gives no details as to what sort of platters and dishes were used to serve the food - except the lamb, which was served on a silver platter. However, this isn't an inconsistency either, because the original vision never claims the food was served on wooden dishes, only that the spoons were wooden.
As for there being no hallmarks of the feast being a wedding feast - such hallmarks were not present in the books either. This was the wedding feast, not the wedding itself. There was no wedding pie at the RW, so that is consistent with the lack of a pie in the vision. The vision does correctly identify it as a feast. Seeing as the massacre was committed after the bride and the groom had gone away, there's no reason for there to be a wedding cloak either.
The remaining inconsistency here, then, is the lack of musicians. They were standing in the gallery, however, so we're not sure if Dany has the ability to see them from her perspective. And additionally, the musicians were part of the perpetrators themselves, so its like asking why Walder Frey and Roose Bolton weren't there, really. They've left.
Catelyn states that her son had four guards that evening, all presumably armed. Along with that there were "swordbelts hanging on pegs along the walls", which Catelyn were "glad of". There seemed to be some preparedness should a conflict arise, on the part of the northerners. This, along with the fact that the Freys were using heavy longaxes as well as crossbows and daggers, and that "one of them struck the Smalljon's head off", is enough to conclude that decapitated hands and heads aren't totally out of nowhere.
The bronze/iron crown is probably the strongest inconsistency, though it's worth pointing out again that they're often noted in the same connotation, as if their use has the same symbolic value - some references in spoilers: + Show Spoiler +"bronze and iron were the metals of winter", "bronze-and-iron crown", "We [Meera and Jojen] have sworn you our faith by...bronze and iron, ice and fire" - "the crown they had fashioned him of bronze and iron", "the dark gleam of bronze, the circle of iron swords". It's also worth noting that
In addition, I can't find a specific reference to the crown put on Robb's head being his own crown as king of the north, simply "a" crown. However it still makes more sense that the crown Dany saw in the vision would be his real crown.
So in the end, I think the evidence points too much to the most logical, obvious answer, and I think tze exaggerates some of the inconsistencies.
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Obviously Robb didn't literally have the wolf head during the Red Wedding feast, so expecting all the other details to be the exact same as the feast makes little sense.
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I can see it go both ways, maybe it is an event in book 6/7 or maybe it was the RW.
I think both can work and neither result would be too weird.
It could be another Red Weddign type event where the Starks get their revenge. The wolf man is dead and still watching would simply symbolize that it's revenge for what happened at the RW for example.
Just an idea.
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From the other thread:
On May 05 2016 02:08 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 17:12 zatic wrote:On May 04 2016 16:56 Cricketer12 wrote:On May 04 2016 16:46 Sterlymobile wrote:
Does Balon dying mean Theon is the next king? The grey haired dude mentioned something about customs when Yara was saying she was the ruler now. Things are looking up Theon! Nope. Recall that the ironborn either think Theon is dead or too much of a greenlander to rule of he was alive... As far as I recall only Balon thought so. And he is dead. Also no one except Yara knows what a mess he is. Theon should be next in line. That is if he makes it home in the first place to show everyone in time that he is alive. In any case I highly doubt he wants the job, and in his state of mind/body his claim will surely be challenged by proper Ironborn. The guy that performed Balon's sea burial told Yara that she wasn't guaranteed succession, but had to be selected by the Kingsmoot. I assume the same would hold for Theon, especially since this is the definition of a Moot: "an assembly of the people in early England exercising political, administrative, and judicial powers."
Someone read the books, but is very clever about not mentioning them. I was about to reply that "the guy" was Aeron Damphair when I realized I was in the non-book thread.
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Burn him at the stake! What part of his post bothers you?
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On May 05 2016 02:28 Sent. wrote:
Burn him at the stake! What part of his post bothers you?
Nothing bothers me; I read the books 
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On May 05 2016 02:13 Acrofales wrote:From the other thread: Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 02:08 Wuster wrote:On May 04 2016 17:12 zatic wrote:On May 04 2016 16:56 Cricketer12 wrote:On May 04 2016 16:46 Sterlymobile wrote:
Does Balon dying mean Theon is the next king? The grey haired dude mentioned something about customs when Yara was saying she was the ruler now. Things are looking up Theon! Nope. Recall that the ironborn either think Theon is dead or too much of a greenlander to rule of he was alive... As far as I recall only Balon thought so. And he is dead. Also no one except Yara knows what a mess he is. Theon should be next in line. That is if he makes it home in the first place to show everyone in time that he is alive. In any case I highly doubt he wants the job, and in his state of mind/body his claim will surely be challenged by proper Ironborn. The guy that performed Balon's sea burial told Yara that she wasn't guaranteed succession, but had to be selected by the Kingsmoot. I assume the same would hold for Theon, especially since this is the definition of a Moot: "an assembly of the people in early England exercising political, administrative, and judicial powers." Someone read the books, but is very clever about not mentioning them. I was about to reply that "the guy" was Aeron Damphair when I realized I was in the non-book thread.
Yea kudos to that guy
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On May 05 2016 02:13 Acrofales wrote:From the other thread: Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 02:08 Wuster wrote:On May 04 2016 17:12 zatic wrote:On May 04 2016 16:56 Cricketer12 wrote:On May 04 2016 16:46 Sterlymobile wrote:
Does Balon dying mean Theon is the next king? The grey haired dude mentioned something about customs when Yara was saying she was the ruler now. Things are looking up Theon! Nope. Recall that the ironborn either think Theon is dead or too much of a greenlander to rule of he was alive... As far as I recall only Balon thought so. And he is dead. Also no one except Yara knows what a mess he is. Theon should be next in line. That is if he makes it home in the first place to show everyone in time that he is alive. In any case I highly doubt he wants the job, and in his state of mind/body his claim will surely be challenged by proper Ironborn. The guy that performed Balon's sea burial told Yara that she wasn't guaranteed succession, but had to be selected by the Kingsmoot. I assume the same would hold for Theon, especially since this is the definition of a Moot: "an assembly of the people in early England exercising political, administrative, and judicial powers." Someone read the books, but is very clever about not mentioning them. I was about to reply that "the guy" was Aeron Damphair when I realized I was in the non-book thread.
Well in the show they didn't say the guys name (that I remember). The guy says in the show to Yara that she isn't guaranteed succession and goes by the kingsmoot. So if he hadn't read the book, it was in the show.
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On May 05 2016 07:45 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 02:13 Acrofales wrote:From the other thread: On May 05 2016 02:08 Wuster wrote:On May 04 2016 17:12 zatic wrote:On May 04 2016 16:56 Cricketer12 wrote:On May 04 2016 16:46 Sterlymobile wrote:
Does Balon dying mean Theon is the next king? The grey haired dude mentioned something about customs when Yara was saying she was the ruler now. Things are looking up Theon! Nope. Recall that the ironborn either think Theon is dead or too much of a greenlander to rule of he was alive... As far as I recall only Balon thought so. And he is dead. Also no one except Yara knows what a mess he is. Theon should be next in line. That is if he makes it home in the first place to show everyone in time that he is alive. In any case I highly doubt he wants the job, and in his state of mind/body his claim will surely be challenged by proper Ironborn. The guy that performed Balon's sea burial told Yara that she wasn't guaranteed succession, but had to be selected by the Kingsmoot. I assume the same would hold for Theon, especially since this is the definition of a Moot: "an assembly of the people in early England exercising political, administrative, and judicial powers." Someone read the books, but is very clever about not mentioning them. I was about to reply that "the guy" was Aeron Damphair when I realized I was in the non-book thread. Well in the show they didn't say the guys name (that I remember). The guy says in the show to Yara that she isn't guaranteed succession and goes by the kingsmoot. So if he hadn't read the book, it was in the show.
They had damphair in season 2. Actor changed though...
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On May 05 2016 08:11 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 07:45 blade55555 wrote:On May 05 2016 02:13 Acrofales wrote:From the other thread: On May 05 2016 02:08 Wuster wrote:On May 04 2016 17:12 zatic wrote:On May 04 2016 16:56 Cricketer12 wrote:On May 04 2016 16:46 Sterlymobile wrote:
Does Balon dying mean Theon is the next king? The grey haired dude mentioned something about customs when Yara was saying she was the ruler now. Things are looking up Theon! Nope. Recall that the ironborn either think Theon is dead or too much of a greenlander to rule of he was alive... As far as I recall only Balon thought so. And he is dead. Also no one except Yara knows what a mess he is. Theon should be next in line. That is if he makes it home in the first place to show everyone in time that he is alive. In any case I highly doubt he wants the job, and in his state of mind/body his claim will surely be challenged by proper Ironborn. The guy that performed Balon's sea burial told Yara that she wasn't guaranteed succession, but had to be selected by the Kingsmoot. I assume the same would hold for Theon, especially since this is the definition of a Moot: "an assembly of the people in early England exercising political, administrative, and judicial powers." Someone read the books, but is very clever about not mentioning them. I was about to reply that "the guy" was Aeron Damphair when I realized I was in the non-book thread. Well in the show they didn't say the guys name (that I remember). The guy says in the show to Yara that she isn't guaranteed succession and goes by the kingsmoot. So if he hadn't read the book, it was in the show. They had damphair in season 2. Actor changed though...
It was a drowned priest, but we don't know that he was Damphair. Certainly looks similar. Neither of them were names. I suspect that if he is Aeron, he'll be given an important spot during the Kingsmoot and his identity will be clarified.
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EPT
