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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 20 2014 17:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 12:59 karazax wrote:On June 20 2014 07:50 Talin wrote:
As long as there was ANY mention of Lyanna being kidnapped by Rhaegar, it is not inconceivable that a show viewer could stumble upon it.
Assuming Jon's parentage is important, there are two conceivable theories you can pull out form the show:
1) He's the son of Lyanna and Bob
2) He's the son of Lyanna and the Targaryen kidnapper
It's easy to discard Ned being the father either. It's uncharacteristic for him, and there are no women - living or dead - interesting enough to be mothers that have been mentioned in any way. Unless you go crazy and assume he's the son of Lyanna and Ned.
You don't really need the kind of hard evidence presented in the books for it. Books pretty much lay it out in the open. First off the show is full of story details that go absolutely no where and make no sense, so assuming Jon's parentage on the show is important is far from obvious. Especially since Jon almost immediately joins the Night's Watch where he looses what ever birth rights he might have. Clearly it's not obvious, but it is a legitimate guess. Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 12:59 karazax wrote:
Why is it "easy" to discard Ned based on the show? Because he is supposedly honorable in a show about filled with morally grey characters? Isn't taking responsibility and facing the consequences for the bastard you had out of wedlock honorable too? Ned said Jon's mother is Wylla. Why should show only watchers think it's completely impossible Ned could do this, but none of Ned's friends, family or associates do? Nobody who knows Ned ever question it. The only reason readers can question it is because we get in Ned's head and get his thoughts and memories from the Tower of Joy, along with a bunch of other clues. It's easy to discard Ned because Ned being the father doesn't really DO anything for the story and Jon as a character. Fathering a bastard being out of character for Ned is a secondary reason at best (although it conveniently fits into the puzzle). What does Ned being his father really accomplish for the overall story and Jon as a character at this point? If Ned and some random chick are his parents, that's a plot dead end. It doesn't mean anything for Jon, doesn't develop his character, it doesn't provide him with any truly meaningful and character-defining choices in the future. In other words, who his parents really are becomes completely irrelevant. You don't have to overthink what the book or the show tells you. If you just go by one of the classic fantasy/fiction tropes, children born to mysterious parents under mysterious circumstances usually end up being children of heroes or kings or gods, in general come from a bloodline that would have serious implications for the character once he learns the truth. That's why I said that as long as there is even a PASSING mention of Rhaegar, a Targaryen prince "kidnapping" Lyanna, Ned's sister - it is more than enough to trigger the idea that they could be Jon's real parents. You really don't need anything else the book gives you.
It might not do aything for Jon as a character now, but it was a reason for him to go to the wall. Without it we have no POV there. So if we are to assume Ned and some random chick are Jon's parents (which I don't believe, I basically believe R+L=J is absolute truth) then that does (or had) some impact on Jon as a character and where he is right now.
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From the point of view of a non reader Eddard appears to be a honorable man driven by honor and justice.
He's the central character of the first season and embody the show by his sole presence, everything revolve around him.
For a viewer you can easily start to question the adultery, because you feel close to him.
Just before his death you can start to wonder how such a noble man could have done such a thing to his wife.
Plus as a viewer you don't know that his mariage with Catelyn was in its beginning by the time the war began.
From this point you can start to speculate who the real father of Jon is !
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Wow. That Howland Reed = High Septon theory makes a remarkable amount of sense. Been wondering where Reed and the crannogmen went since the Ironborn took moat cailin; and then the boltons "liberated" it. We have heard very little about his whereabouts, except for GRRM's promise that he would make an appearance.
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On June 20 2014 23:14 Acrofales wrote:
Wow. That Howland Reed = High Septon theory makes a remarkable amount of sense. Been wondering where Reed and the crannogmen went since the Ironborn took moat cailin; and then the boltons "liberated" it. We have heard very little about his whereabouts, except for GRRM's promise that he would make an appearance.
interesting, i read it and found it uttter bullshit, even though im a sucker for theories.
The Reeds worship the Old Gods, dont they?
Though we can almost be sure now that the Gravedigger from AFFC is the Hound, and maybe he ll be the champion of the faith in cersei's trial, though not so sure about the last part
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On June 20 2014 23:26 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 23:14 Acrofales wrote:
Wow. That Howland Reed = High Septon theory makes a remarkable amount of sense. Been wondering where Reed and the crannogmen went since the Ironborn took moat cailin; and then the boltons "liberated" it. We have heard very little about his whereabouts, except for GRRM's promise that he would make an appearance. interesting, i read it and found it uttter bullshit, even though im a sucker for theories. The Reeds worship the Old Gods, dont they? Though we can almost be sure now that the Gravedigger from AFFC is the Hound, and maybe he ll be the champion of the faith in cersei's trial, though not so sure about the last part
Reeds worship old gods for sure. But who says the High Septon has to be a believer? :p
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On June 20 2014 17:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 12:59 karazax wrote:On June 20 2014 07:50 Talin wrote:
As long as there was ANY mention of Lyanna being kidnapped by Rhaegar, it is not inconceivable that a show viewer could stumble upon it.
Assuming Jon's parentage is important, there are two conceivable theories you can pull out form the show:
1) He's the son of Lyanna and Bob
2) He's the son of Lyanna and the Targaryen kidnapper
It's easy to discard Ned being the father either. It's uncharacteristic for him, and there are no women - living or dead - interesting enough to be mothers that have been mentioned in any way. Unless you go crazy and assume he's the son of Lyanna and Ned.
You don't really need the kind of hard evidence presented in the books for it. Books pretty much lay it out in the open. First off the show is full of story details that go absolutely no where and make no sense, so assuming Jon's parentage on the show is important is far from obvious. Especially since Jon almost immediately joins the Night's Watch where he looses what ever birth rights he might have. Clearly it's not obvious, but it is a legitimate guess.
It's a wild guess, only remotely legitimate because of clues we have from the book that support it. They spent just as much time being "mysterious" about Shae's family, even going out of their way to imply she is not of common birth when they do their drinking game when they first meet. Where did that story line go?
On June 20 2014 12:59 karazax wrote:
Why is it "easy" to discard Ned based on the show? Because he is supposedly honorable in a show about filled with morally grey characters? Isn't taking responsibility and facing the consequences for the bastard you had out of wedlock honorable too? Ned said Jon's mother is Wylla. Why should show only watchers think it's completely impossible Ned could do this, but none of Ned's friends, family or associates do? Nobody who knows Ned ever question it. The only reason readers can question it is because we get in Ned's head and get his thoughts and memories from the Tower of Joy, along with a bunch of other clues.
On June 20 2014 17:44 Talin wrote:It's easy to discard Ned because Ned being the father doesn't really DO anything for the story and Jon as a character. Fathering a bastard being out of character for Ned is a secondary reason at best (although it conveniently fits into the puzzle).
What does Ned being his father really accomplish for the overall story and Jon as a character at this point? If Ned and some random chick are his parents, that's a plot dead end. It doesn't mean anything for Jon, doesn't develop his character, it doesn't provide him with any truly meaningful and character-defining choices in the future. In other words, who his parents really are becomes completely irrelevant.
You don't have to overthink what the book or the show tells you. If you just go by one of the classic fantasy/fiction tropes, children born to mysterious parents under mysterious circumstances usually end up being children of heroes or kings or gods, in general come from a bloodline that would have serious implications for the character once he learns the truth.
That's why I said that as long as there is even a PASSING mention of Rhaegar, a Targaryen prince "kidnapping" Lyanna, Ned's sister - it is more than enough to trigger the idea that they could be Jon's real parents. You really don't need anything else the book gives you.
So again why aren't there tons of theories about Shae's noble background? She refuses to drink when Tyrion calls her common birth, her mom wasn't a whore, and her father never left her when she was young, she refuses to talk about either one. This must be really important right? Clearly she must be Jon's noble twin sister separated at birth, and raised by the Martels to spy on the Lannisters with assistance from Varys. She was about to assassinate Tywin when Tyrion surprised her and killed her first.
Ned being Jon's father affects the story deeply. It causes him to want to abandon the Night's Watch to go help Robb. It causes him to be offered Winterfell by Stannis. It causes him to be a character who places high value on his vows like his father. It led to him being well trained in sword combat before he even arrived at the wall. It causes contempt between some members of the Night's Watch and gives him his "Lord Snow" mocking title. Jon is an honorable character, and yet he still ends up sleeping with Ygritte. Robb's an honorable character and he breaks his vows to the Freys and marries Jeyne to protect her honor (or on the show says screw my honor I'm marrying Talisa cause I love her). But some how Ned making a mistake is impossible? Why do literally no other characters that know Ned ever question this? Questioning who Jon's mother is, is understandable. But I expect this same person to question Shae's parentage, to question a dozen other plot holes that lead no where on the show. It's also a far cry from a show watcher saying "I wonder if it's possible that Jon isn't Ned's son?" and what the guy in the other thread said which is "not everyone has to be a super genius to put this together when its really fucking obvious."
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On June 21 2014 00:33 karazax wrote:
Ned being Jon's father affects the story deeply. It causes him to want to abandon the Night's Watch to go help Robb. It causes him to be offered Winterfell by Stannis. It causes him to be a character who places high value on his vows like his father. It led to him being well trained in sword combat before he even arrived at the wall. It causes contempt between some members of the Night's Watch and gives him his "Lord Snow" mocking title. Jon is an honorable character, and yet he still ends up sleeping with Ygritte. Robb's an honorable character and he breaks his vows to the Freys and marries Jeyne to protect her honor (or on the show says screw my honor I'm marrying Talisa cause I love her). But some how Ned making a mistake is impossible? Why do literally no other characters that know Ned ever question this? Questioning who Jon's mother is, is understandable. But I expect this same person to question Shae's parentage, to question a dozen other plot holes that lead no where on the show. It's also a far cry from a show watcher saying "I wonder if it's possible that Jon isn't Ned's son?" and what the guy in the other thread said which is "not everyone has to be a super genius to put this together when its really fucking obvious."
Yeah seriously. Anyone who puts Jon's name together with Lyanna or Rhaegar from nothing but watching the show is full of it and should be banned. Questioning if Ned is his father is as far as people can possibly get. There is no mention of Ned's promise to Lyanna, no mention of Tower of Joy, no mention of any of the indicative prophecies. They either read the book, or at the very least read the theories based on the book from elsewhere. Either way, it's not a TV-only discussion.
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On June 21 2014 01:00 LostWraithSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 00:33 karazax wrote:
Ned being Jon's father affects the story deeply. It causes him to want to abandon the Night's Watch to go help Robb. It causes him to be offered Winterfell by Stannis. It causes him to be a character who places high value on his vows like his father. It led to him being well trained in sword combat before he even arrived at the wall. It causes contempt between some members of the Night's Watch and gives him his "Lord Snow" mocking title. Jon is an honorable character, and yet he still ends up sleeping with Ygritte. Robb's an honorable character and he breaks his vows to the Freys and marries Jeyne to protect her honor (or on the show says screw my honor I'm marrying Talisa cause I love her). But some how Ned making a mistake is impossible? Why do literally no other characters that know Ned ever question this? Questioning who Jon's mother is, is understandable. But I expect this same person to question Shae's parentage, to question a dozen other plot holes that lead no where on the show. It's also a far cry from a show watcher saying "I wonder if it's possible that Jon isn't Ned's son?" and what the guy in the other thread said which is "not everyone has to be a super genius to put this together when its really fucking obvious."
Yeah seriously. Anyone who puts Jon's name together with Lyanna or Rhaegar from nothing but watching the show is full of it and should be banned. Questioning if Ned is his father is as far as people can possibly get. There is no mention of Ned's promise to Lyanna, no mention of Tower of Joy, no mention of any of the indicative prophecies. They either read the book, or at the very least read the theories based on the book from elsewhere. Either way, it's not a TV-only discussion.
I think there s a phenomenon, that some of these guys are actually just viewers, with asshole friends/peers, who tell them about "their" genius theories.
That guy believes that he s not a reader, and figured this out, and says "well, i could have been this smart too" and tries to promote in other circles "his friends" theory like his own.
he's just too dumb to realzie he's been tricked into thinking a viewer figured this out
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People who understand themselves to be entirely unsullied, and have every reason to, have the idea anyway. How are the mods possibly going to moderate that? It cannot be done.
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On June 21 2014 03:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:
People who understand themselves to be entirely unsullied, and have every reason to, have the idea anyway. How are the mods possibly going to moderate that? It cannot be done.
Yes, but i think this is 1 or 2 guys at most, some comments are blutantly reader comments, especially now with this Lyanna theory
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Sure it's blatantly obvious, but as long as they only argue with show knowledge I don't see a problem with it.
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On June 21 2014 03:40 Nyxisto wrote:
Sure it's blatantly obvious, but as long as they only argue with show knowledge I don't see a problem with it.
"Jon and Arya look most like Starks" is not show arguments
And it is a huge problem when u argue with show only arguments, but knowing what will happen, lots of people have been doing this, and Zatic bans most of them. U can make urself look like ur a cagey mofo.
For example, any of us could have spelled out based exclusively on show arguments, that Stannis is gonna show up in episode 10.
Davos shows the letter
Mellisandre confirms they need to head north
Stannis listens to Mel
Stannsi just got gold, and can do it
Wall is doomed if s1 doesnt intervene, and we're only in season 4.
= Stannis gonna come
show arguments only, and i just spoiled one of the best moments of the season.
Now im sure many viewers werent shocked when he made an appearance north, but i d bet very few actually expected it.
And there are a tone of clues for this, a tone.
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On June 21 2014 03:57 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 03:40 Nyxisto wrote:
Sure it's blatantly obvious, but as long as they only argue with show knowledge I don't see a problem with it. "Jon and Arya look most like Starks" is not show arguments And it is a huge problem when u argue with show only arguments, but knowing what will happen, lots of people have been doing this, and Zatic bans most of them. U can make urself look like ur a cagey mofo. For example, any of us could have spelled out based exclusively on show arguments, that Stannis is gonna show up in episode 10. Davos shows the letter Mellisandre confirms they need to head north Stannis listens to Mel Stannsi just got gold, and can do it Wall is doomed if s1 doesnt intervene, and we're only in season 4. = Stannis gonna come show arguments only, and i just spoiled one of the best moments of the season. Now im sure many viewers werent shocked when he made an appearance north, but i d bet very few actually expected it. And there are a tone of clues for this, a tone.
Well you can't ban someone for making a right prediction. If people are so scared to get anything spoiled they should just stay out the threads. It's just how it is with the show not having caught up the books. If you ban everybody just because they might have read the books you can as well close the thread altogether.
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On June 21 2014 04:28 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 03:57 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 21 2014 03:40 Nyxisto wrote:
Sure it's blatantly obvious, but as long as they only argue with show knowledge I don't see a problem with it. "Jon and Arya look most like Starks" is not show arguments And it is a huge problem when u argue with show only arguments, but knowing what will happen, lots of people have been doing this, and Zatic bans most of them. U can make urself look like ur a cagey mofo. For example, any of us could have spelled out based exclusively on show arguments, that Stannis is gonna show up in episode 10. Davos shows the letter Mellisandre confirms they need to head north Stannis listens to Mel Stannsi just got gold, and can do it Wall is doomed if s1 doesnt intervene, and we're only in season 4. = Stannis gonna come show arguments only, and i just spoiled one of the best moments of the season. Now im sure many viewers werent shocked when he made an appearance north, but i d bet very few actually expected it. And there are a tone of clues for this, a tone. Well you can't ban someone for making a right prediction. If people are so scared to get anything spoiled they should just stay out the threads. It's just how it is with the show not having caught up the books. If you ban everybody just because they might have read the books you can as well close the thread altogether.
im sure the mods considered at some point or other doing just that
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Zurich15361 Posts
On June 21 2014 04:28 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 03:57 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 21 2014 03:40 Nyxisto wrote:
Sure it's blatantly obvious, but as long as they only argue with show knowledge I don't see a problem with it. "Jon and Arya look most like Starks" is not show arguments And it is a huge problem when u argue with show only arguments, but knowing what will happen, lots of people have been doing this, and Zatic bans most of them. U can make urself look like ur a cagey mofo. For example, any of us could have spelled out based exclusively on show arguments, that Stannis is gonna show up in episode 10. Davos shows the letter Mellisandre confirms they need to head north Stannis listens to Mel Stannsi just got gold, and can do it Wall is doomed if s1 doesnt intervene, and we're only in season 4. = Stannis gonna come show arguments only, and i just spoiled one of the best moments of the season. Now im sure many viewers werent shocked when he made an appearance north, but i d bet very few actually expected it. And there are a tone of clues for this, a tone. Well you can't ban someone for making a right prediction. If people are so scared to get anything spoiled they should just stay out the threads. It's just how it is with the show not having caught up the books. If you ban everybody just because they might have read the books you can as well close the thread altogether.
Which is why no one was banned for predicting Stannis is going North, but anyone who "deducts" R+L=J from the show will be instabanned.
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Has anyone read the "The Rogue Prince".... Surprised no one is talking about it....
I wonder how I would have liked it, if I never read "The Princess and the Queen"
If you were to suggest this read to ASOIF readers, would you suggest them to read the stories in a particular order...?
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Oh snap, didn't know there was more than dunk and egg. I will read all of em :D
Chronological order is best, no?
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On June 21 2014 05:28 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 04:28 Nyxisto wrote:On June 21 2014 03:57 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 21 2014 03:40 Nyxisto wrote:
Sure it's blatantly obvious, but as long as they only argue with show knowledge I don't see a problem with it. "Jon and Arya look most like Starks" is not show arguments And it is a huge problem when u argue with show only arguments, but knowing what will happen, lots of people have been doing this, and Zatic bans most of them. U can make urself look like ur a cagey mofo. For example, any of us could have spelled out based exclusively on show arguments, that Stannis is gonna show up in episode 10. Davos shows the letter Mellisandre confirms they need to head north Stannis listens to Mel Stannsi just got gold, and can do it Wall is doomed if s1 doesnt intervene, and we're only in season 4. = Stannis gonna come show arguments only, and i just spoiled one of the best moments of the season. Now im sure many viewers werent shocked when he made an appearance north, but i d bet very few actually expected it. And there are a tone of clues for this, a tone. Well you can't ban someone for making a right prediction. If people are so scared to get anything spoiled they should just stay out the threads. It's just how it is with the show not having caught up the books. If you ban everybody just because they might have read the books you can as well close the thread altogether. Which is why no one was banned for predicting Stannis is going North, but anyone who "deducts" R+L=J from the show will be instabanned.
I wouldnt have deducted it from the books either.
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It's been around for only three days. I haven't picked it up yet.
Based on TPatQ anyway, I'd probably only suggest it to someone who is pretty deeply into ASoIaF. Too much of GRRM's strength lies in plots and characters that take longer to establish and unfold for his novellas to ever be as good as the series. Hedge Knight is the only one that stands on its own so well, and then the later two in that series get to follow the same main characters at least.
My understanding is that it is set before TPatQ so it would go first, but if it is anything like GRRM's other novellas it should be designed to stand on its own in a way that the order probably doesn't matter much. He'd have done it very wrong if he released the one you need to read first over a year later, no?
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Just started reading the Pirncess and the Queen, im having a nerd-gasm.
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EPT
