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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 19 2014 02:34 Conti wrote:
Also, someone has a Jon-Snow-parentage theory in the other thread that comes pretty close to what actually happened, and actually makes sense from a show viewer's perspective. Hooray!
It got marred in the issue of book knowledge seeping into the discussion quickly though. That talk of Jon looking different from the other Stark children, who all have the Tully look? The only "Tully look" among the other children in the show is on the part of Sansa and Robb, and they never even defined "the looks" in the show other than mentioning Lannister, Baratheon and Targaryen hair colors. It (Jon parentage) is still just loose speculation for the unsullied; though Mel's interest in him is another thing to fuel it.
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At last, COTF are here  Too bad there is not much content for bran from now on.
Leaf is cool. Those skeleton didn't fit the lore, mass Wight was the way to go.
That Arya scene in the end, getting on the boat, got my in tears for some reason.
Jojen's death felt irrelevant.
I really hope they don't show varys and tyrion for a whole season to troll non-book readers. I want them to suffer as much as I suffered through book 4, hoping to catch a glimpse of tyrion.
Arya's story will become a viewer's favorite. Actually, would be fun if they made spin off of all those stories that don't link together with special episodes, more is better.
I realized that game of thrones tries to pack all the awesome scenes, but there are so many, that they don't get the time for the build up. Like the red wedding, you could feel something was wrong, with the bad weather, all bad omens, the wolf was acting weird...
Davos' story arc is cool, but that was supposed to be organized by Tywin :D if I remembered correctly. Anyway, fat Manderly is welcome to enter the dance. Actually when I read the book, at winterfell when manderly get hurt by sword, I had to read like 5 times, to be sure he wasn't killed or fatally injured, it was badly written.
We'll get to iron island quite strongly also...
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On June 19 2014 07:19 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 06:53 Geo.Rion wrote:
And now in the finale he looks shocked that tyrion killed Tywin, while it s almost for certain, that it was his plan all along Wait, what? That's news to me. How could Varys possibly know that Tyrion was going to kill Tywin?
Tyrion was already angry at his father after the trial. If Varys knew that Shae was in Tywin's chambers and Tyrion knows the hidden passage he could purposely lead the dwarf there and expect him to kill them both in anger. It is not certain but I think it's a solid theory and I hope it's true.
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On June 19 2014 07:30 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:19 Conti wrote:On June 19 2014 06:53 Geo.Rion wrote:
And now in the finale he looks shocked that tyrion killed Tywin, while it s almost for certain, that it was his plan all along Wait, what? That's news to me. How could Varys possibly know that Tyrion was going to kill Tywin? Well, it s subtle. One, Varys helps Jaime, and it owuld be naive to think Jaime could surprise varys, but aside from that, why would Varys help Tyrion, what s the catch? -> The central power figure gets killed and the heir of Casterly rock is in his debt. Two, more clearly it's spelled out in the epilogue of ADWD, that Varys absolutely wants power-vacuum in Kings Landing, and Kevan proved to be up to the task of filling the hole, so he murders him, along with Pycelle, and reveals that he s wishing for Aegon V to succseed the throne
In the books Varys is with Tyrion on his secret journey out of King's Landing. He specifically urges Tyrion not to climb the ladder to his father's chambers out of fear he's going to get himself killed.
Varys most likely would've wanted Tywin out of the picture, sure, but I don't think he intended it to be by the hands of Tyrion. I interpreted his help of Tyrion as genuinely repaying him for his service in protecting King's Landing (where nobody else did). He betrays Tyrion in the trial, yes, but he had to cover his own ass too. The show seems to capture this a bit better.
I mean, surely Varys is smart enough to see past Tyrion's affliction and realize he's a positive to the realm. Why not help him?
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On June 19 2014 07:30 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:19 Conti wrote:On June 19 2014 06:53 Geo.Rion wrote:
And now in the finale he looks shocked that tyrion killed Tywin, while it s almost for certain, that it was his plan all along Wait, what? That's news to me. How could Varys possibly know that Tyrion was going to kill Tywin? Well, it s subtle. One, Varys helps Jaime, and it would be naive to think Jaime could surprise varys, but aside from that, why would Varys help Tyrion, what s the catch? -> The central power figure gets killed and the heir of Casterly rock is in his debt. Two, more clearly it's spelled out in the epilogue of ADWD, that Varys absolutely wants power-vacuum in Kings Landing, and Kevan proved to be up to the task of filling the hole, so he murders him, along with Pycelle, and reveals that he s wishing for Aegon V to succseed the throne So while, it is not spelled out litreally, we can be 90%+ sure that Varys orchestrated the whole murder of Tywin, similar how LF orchestrated several events of the same magnitude
I dunno, that seems a bit of a stretch to me. The circumstances that led Tyrion kill his father (Jaime telling the truth about Tysha and Tywin provoking him) had nothing to do with Varys. I could see Varys accepting to let Tyrion go because of some ulterior plan for Tyrion.
Anyway, I didn't mind the lack of Tysha background in the TV series, but I was sad the wasn't a big "last straw" line from Tywin (like "wherever whores go" in the book)
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On June 19 2014 07:39 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:19 Conti wrote:On June 19 2014 06:53 Geo.Rion wrote:
And now in the finale he looks shocked that tyrion killed Tywin, while it s almost for certain, that it was his plan all along Wait, what? That's news to me. How could Varys possibly know that Tyrion was going to kill Tywin? Tyrion was already angry at his father after the trial. If Varys knew that Shae was in Tywin's chambers and Tyrion knows the hidden passage he could purposely lead the dwarf there and expect him to kill them both in anger. It is not certain but I think it's a solid theory and I hope it's true.
But Varys would know that he would have to escape King's Landing if that happened, so he would have to purposefully give up his position of power. That doesn't seem like a very smart move.
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On June 19 2014 07:39 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:30 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 19 2014 07:19 Conti wrote:On June 19 2014 06:53 Geo.Rion wrote:
And now in the finale he looks shocked that tyrion killed Tywin, while it s almost for certain, that it was his plan all along Wait, what? That's news to me. How could Varys possibly know that Tyrion was going to kill Tywin? Well, it s subtle. One, Varys helps Jaime, and it owuld be naive to think Jaime could surprise varys, but aside from that, why would Varys help Tyrion, what s the catch? -> The central power figure gets killed and the heir of Casterly rock is in his debt. Two, more clearly it's spelled out in the epilogue of ADWD, that Varys absolutely wants power-vacuum in Kings Landing, and Kevan proved to be up to the task of filling the hole, so he murders him, along with Pycelle, and reveals that he s wishing for Aegon V to succseed the throne In the books Varys is with Tyrion on his secret journey out of King's Landing. He specifically urges Tyrion not to climb the ladder to his father's chambers out of fear he's going to get himself killed. Varys most likely would've wanted Tywin out of the picture, sure, but I don't think he intended it to be by the hands of Tyrion. I interpreted his help of Tyrion as genuinely repaying him for his service in protecting King's Landing (where nobody else did). He betrays Tyrion in the trial, yes, but he had to cover his own ass too. The show seems to capture this a bit better. I mean, surely Varys is smart enough to see past Tyrion's affliction and realize he's a positive to the realm. Why not help him?
Varys urges him not to go to his father, BUT HE SHOWS HIM how to get there via the secret pathways. Think of it, Tyrion has the motivation, Varys doesnt have to urge him (and he's fully aware), he only has to give him the possibility, which he does, what he says can be entirely different at that point, moreover it fits the character to act that way, what he does is what matters.
In the books Varys doesnt "try" to help Tyrion directly, Jaime "surprises" him in his chambers and forces him to help him. At that point Varys is like, "OH, ok, i guess i'm forced to help. here s exactly how u do it, exactly how u escape, exactly where do u run in Essos, with whom and why, oh and BTW if u re planning to take revenge on ur father, DONT, DONT GO UP THERE ON THAT LADDER RIGHT THERE, nah, that would be silly".
Think about it, if LF was genius enough to orchestrate all those crap, and not be directly involved, why the hell wouldnt Varys do the same, who s probably smarter and more focused than LF is. We outright have to construct excuses why Varys wouldnt have done it, even though it's on his agenda to kill off any power figure in KingsLanding, and he's actively engaged in Tyrion s escape.
Maybe im jumping to conclusions, but in my mind Varys planned Tywin's murder as much as LF planned Ned's and Joff's.
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Tyrion's primary goal in going to visit Tywin in the books is to find out what happened to Tysha. All of his conversation revolves around finding out what happened to her. Varys doesn't know that Jaime is going to drive him into a rage by telling him about Tysha, and it's quite possible that Tyrion doesn't even try to go see Tywin without this event. That being said it's certainly believable that once he saw the rage Tyrion was in, he saw an opportunity and was glad to help push Tyrion along that path.
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On June 19 2014 06:50 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 00:27 -Archangel- wrote:
And it is bullshit that this show mostly needs to cater to non-book readers. These books were read by millions even before it was a show and most of those people are now viewers. They are also behind all the hype and helped in a big way to bring in many non-book readers to the show.
Now after the show has been raping the books for couple of years, some of these viewers are going to leave. I am for the first time thinking about not watching the next season anymore. I just cannot stand these show writers anymore that think their vision is better than Martin's. Let them write their own ultra mega successful book series if they can... This isn't directly solely at you but rather this thread in general: you people need to get over yourselves. You clearly have no understanding at all what goes into a film adaptation and seem to think these writers are changing things just because they can when in reality they are changing things because they have to. Writing a book doesn't involve a budget; you don't have to pay each character in it, you don't have to spend millions on CGI for dragons and magic, and most of all you don't have a set time frame to work with. This last part is further cemented by the fact that A Song of Ice and Fire was originally only going to be three books, then it was extended to seven, and now GRRM wants to write an eighth book. He also has no deadlines to meet and his publisher doesn't put any pressure on him. The show, on the other hand... has to pay for every character they show (hence the cuts and merges, and some plot deviations to account for this), has to pay for every second of film they record (hence the tight timing on some episodes), and most of all has to produce the seasons in a timely fashion. If they stuck to the books, word for word, there would be a dozen seasons and each of those would have 50 hour-long episodes. I mean come on now. It's like people in this thread feel like they're overly entitled to something. Get off your high horses and realize that books and film are two completely different things and should be treated as such; especially when the show is "based on" the books and not a direct adaptation as so many people here seem to think.
Screw getting over oneself. Posts might seem serious because it's text and not just talking but this is a bit of fun. People might come off as self important but in practice this is rarely the case (or at least that's what i tell myself).
I can understand that they have to make changes and i understand that making a show is different. I do not have to like the changes any more than i have to hate on them. Some i like, some i don't. And it's the same with the majority of people. Most people will prefer one version to the other. Due to the nature of books and the commitment it takes to read them which most would regard as significant book readers are more likely to prefer the books and probably more inclined to have a negative attitude towards changes. For me at least the show tries to tell the story of the books and i don't want it to undersell them because even if it's minor in the grand scheme of things i like them and I would like others to like them or get why i like them.
This is a place for talking about changes or expressing your opinions and truth is no one needs to make considerations for the fact that it's a TV show. You can and ou could argue you should you should but you don't need to. HBO could have had a tiny budget and they for instance, cut half of the current cast creating a horrific monstrosity of a program. Even if they were doing well under their constraints, the end product would still be terrible. If we were to look at that we would be right to call it terrible. Fact of the matter is their are plenty of ways of doing things under their budget and the difficulty of that task should not free them from legitimate criticism.
+ Show Spoiler [beating a dead horse] +my stance on the shitting gold line remains they ruined the scene/arc/character anyway might as well have thrown in the line don't need to care if it's better and that might not have come across given the way people were responding to that point in the thread
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
wow the people in the other thread aren't even trying to be subtle now
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Th revive poll is a bit suspicious, i am surprised they are allowed polls tbh
but wtf is this?
On June 19 2014 06:54 Mataza wrote:
Well Sansa looks like a Tully/her mother.
Also I've heard the idea that Jon Snow's father is a Targaryen, since she was kidnapped. Since Viserys was 6 or so and the other children were babies or not yet born(Daenerys), Jon's father could be Rhaegar or the mad king himself.
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On June 19 2014 09:38 layabout wrote:
Also I've heard the idea that Jon Snow's father is a Targaryen, since she was kidnapped.
ಠ_ಠ
In all seriousness, I don't understand the sentence
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your aren't alone but look at the conversation it started tuttut
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>_> how to moderate that shit
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I don't understand why some people pretend to not have read the books and then "speculate" about what might happen in the TV thread. They must have very little meaning in their lives to want to ruin the enjoyment of others or feel the need to appear 'smart'.
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On June 19 2014 10:58 LilClinkin wrote:
I don't understand why some people pretend to not have read the books and then "speculate" about what might happen in the TV thread. They must have very little meaning in their lives to want to ruin the enjoyment of others or feel the need to appear 'smart'.
Ye, I've accidentally spoiled Jon's "death" for a book reader once (she was on ADWD, and I forgot she wasn't completely finished yet), and I still feel awful about it.
This R+L=J speculation too rampant.
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On June 19 2014 08:27 karazax wrote:
Tyrion's primary goal in going to visit Tywin in the books is to find out what happened to Tysha. All of his conversation revolves around finding out what happened to her. Varys doesn't know that Jaime is going to drive him into a rage by telling him about Tysha, and it's quite possible that Tyrion doesn't even try to go see Tywin without this event. That being said it's certainly believable that once he saw the rage Tyrion was in, he saw an opportunity and was glad to help push Tyrion along that path.
To be honest, its an 'ok' improvisation of HBO to make the murder of Tywin and Shae a crime of passion by Tyrion. To insert
the 'Wherever whores go story' will only start many more questions for TV Viewers.
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On June 19 2014 12:03 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 10:58 LilClinkin wrote:
I don't understand why some people pretend to not have read the books and then "speculate" about what might happen in the TV thread. They must have very little meaning in their lives to want to ruin the enjoyment of others or feel the need to appear 'smart'. Ye, I've accidentally spoiled Jon's "death" for a book reader once (she was on ADWD, and I forgot she wasn't completely finished yet), and I still feel awful about it. This R+L=J speculation too rampant.
Nothing can be done now. Trying to weed out the idea would only strengthen the theory for anyone who heard it.
The honor of book readers managed to stay pretty powerful up until the Red Wedding. After that it's felt like there's been an ever increasing amount of spoilers and "speculation" about what's coming. The purple wedding, Stannis's character, Jon, all these things that shouldn't create such fervor in a TV only thread.
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In season 4, here are some small things that could have been done better without completely changing the events in the book in my opinion.
1. The timing of Stannis on the wall could have been better. I was expecting him to arrive to in the midst of the battle
while the crows are being overrun by the bigger wildling army, turning the tide for a night's watch victory. There should been no meetup with Jon and Mance Rayder. That was really stupid.
2. In Tyrion's trial by combat, I wanted Oberyn to scream ELIAAA!! while attacking Gregor. I also wanted Oberyn
to lift the sword of Gregor before he fell.
3. It would have been more epic if Jon Snow had been the one to accidentally shot Ygritte in the battle of Castle Black.
4. When Littlefinger pushed Lysa to hear death, he could have said 'Only Cat' or 'Only Catelyn'. The viewers aren't dumb.
5. The Mountain should have died screaming like in the books. (Poisoned slowly, black blood and pus leaking from him).
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For the most part I have no problem with them changing things to suit TV. However, I think that the Tysha conversation needed to be in (or something else in it's place). Tyrion's motive just seemed wrong in the show.
On another note I have no idea why people complain about 'Only Cat'. it makes absolutely no difference that he said 'Your sister' instead.
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EPT
