SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread.
On June 17 2014 22:46 layabout wrote: It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
There was never any build up for the Tywin detour of Tyrion's escape, and it didn't make any more (or less) sense in the books. It was just as abrupt as it was in the show, because it was a spur-of-the-moment decision on Tyrion's part.
Hell, the whole event was pretty much shown minute-for-minute of real time on the show. It doesn't get any less rushed than that.
The only differences I can remember is that Shae and Tysha have been merged into a single character (Shae), and that Shae tried to talk her way out when confronted by Tyrion. Both changes are rather insignificant relative to the adaptation standards show set since the very first season.
In the books Tyrion can hear the guards outside talking i think they are there though. I hadn't read the other thread yet i was basing off of my flatmates reactions. I suppose i am really annoyed because i stared with the first series, read all the books loved both and this is the first time where i feel they didn't do things well enough that it ruined my enjoyment of the show.
On June 17 2014 14:23 GWdeathscythe wrote: No "you don't shit gold after all" reference in Tywin murderer? damn I'm so frustrated, I was waiting for this moment for so long.
Putting that line in the show would have been one of the worst things they could ever done. It's the last line in the chapter, and it works there because it's not part of the dialogue. Not to mention that it's common knowledge at that point that there's a saying about the Lannisters, something that's only mentioned once in the show (if I remember correctly). Having Tyrion say that would make him look like a stupid 80s action film figure who throws around cheesy catchphrases, completely destroying all the tension they have built up until that point.
This is a prime example of the producers not including something from the books because it would never, ever work in the show.
On June 17 2014 16:41 HolyArrow wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:13 Conti wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:02 Irrelevant Label wrote: That the unsullied and other non-readers rate it highly but almost all the readers are at least partially grumbling about disappointment is probably the strongest statement to date of how far the show is from the books. In a vacuum it looks really good, but in the context of knowing an alternative it looks mediocre. That is a pretty big separation.
I was thinking about that, too. Hell, even /r/asoiaf is up in arms about everything (especially LSH). Usually they're the voice of reason, but now they're worse than some ragers here. Man. And it's just going to get worse. The show is going to deviate more from the books, characters will change, motivations will change, actions will change. And the book readers are going to hate all of that, no matter whether, on its own, it is perfectly fine, or even genuinely good, or even better than the books (which to most seems to be literally impossible).
I really don't understand how people can watch the show and expect it to be like the books. Now at the latest they should realize that that's just not going to happen, and if you can't live with that, the best idea is to stop watching the show. Or, alternatively, watch the show as its own entity and rate it as such. It's a perfectly fine show. In fact, it's one of the best shows around right now, hands down.
Similarly, I find it absolutely hilarious how popular Stannis has become among the unsullied thanks to the last episode. Man, some book readers must be fuming about how people dare to like show Stannis so much.
Why would book readers be fuming about how much people are liking show Stannis now? The main gripe among a lot of book readers is that Stannis is portrayed too negatively in the show and thus isn't liked enough amongst the show-only people.
Look at the other thread, look at reddit. The unsullied love Stannis now. How dare they love such a badly adapted character.
Majority of viewers would like the line, many wouldn't care anyone annoyed forgets by next season.It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
Come on. The vast majority of the viewers wouldn't even know what the hell Tyrion was talking about. People would be either confused or indifferent about that line, and it would simply be bad writing ruining a scene, nothing else.
I think we just have different ideas of the viewers.
From the people I've met a lot just want to see Peter Dinklage delivering sharp and or amusing lines and rather than caring about Shae they see her more as an annoyance. People really liked Oberyn, people liked Olenna who all but disappeared this series and people love Tywin. From the moment Tyrion looks at the crossbow or if you are slower open the toilet door it's obvious that Tywins is going to die. The response to this was either "oh shit" from people that are all about the titties and quips, or just a groan.
Why would they groan? Because instead of running away and escaping (the obvious thing to do) Tyrion mystically knows about a secret passage, there is no presence of any guards a "wtf", shae is there and tries to kill Tyrion another "wtf" Tyrion seems to go down a corridor to find Tywin on the loo a bit of a "wtf" and him killing tywin for calling Shae who was a whore that he killed and that betrayed him a "whore" again "wtf". It also happens really quickly and there isn't a real sense of the anger or nervousness that Tyrion should have. To them it was less tense and dramatic but felt like a cheap way of yet another killing off for the sake of it and now most of the interesting and likable characters are dead or not in kings landing which is the most bit of the show.
So what harm could a throwback to book readers and a cheesy-ish line on top on a great turdheap do? Besides We all know it would have been delivered brilliantly and the show is full of things happening because they are in the books but not quit fitting with the story as told, for instance that entire scene.
I don't really care much and it's possible my hatred for Shae blinding me
Look at the other thread. The people loved the episode. And that includes the Tyrion/Tywin scene. There was no "wtf" going on, and I can assure you that the vast majority saw the tension and the drama and the anger and everything the scene tried to portray. There really was nothing cheap about it (other than the missing guards, I guess. But come to think of it, there were no guards in the books either, right?). The only people who didn't like the scene and the episode are the book readers.
And the problem is still: People would literally have no idea what the hell Tyrion was talking about if he'd say that line. It wouldn't be a nice little throwback for the bookreaders, it would be utter nonsense for the non-book readers. Yes, the saying has been mentioned once in the show, but that's just not enough for such a pivotal scene. You're basically ruining the scene for >80% of the viewers just to make a few book readers happy. And, hell, even then I would vastly prefer Tyrion not saying the line. He didn't say the line in the books, for starters. And it would have been terrible if he had. I just see no way of that ever actually fitting into the scene.
Maybe we'll get some enemies of Tywin in the next episode making that joke. That would be appropriate and funny.
There was at least one person who posted in the other thread that Tyrion going after his father didn't seem to make sense. Hilariously, it was in the same post as mocking book-readers for complaining because 'they changed it, now it sucks!'
I feel like the show has become an attempt to show off scenes from the books rather than tell the story of the books. We get so many short, disconnected snippets with little buildup or real background built around them, killing tension and making the show feel more like a highlight reel. S1, and even S2, had dialogues added between characters to fill in backstory, to display thoughts that would otherwise just be narration in the books. Now most of those motivations are outright cut to make space for more 'badass' scenes.
(Not including the 1-liner about not shitting gold is a completely appropriate thing, though, for all the reasons already posted).
On June 17 2014 22:46 layabout wrote: It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
There was never any build up for the Tywin detour of Tyrion's escape, and it didn't make any more (or less) sense in the books. It was just as abrupt as it was in the show, because it was a spur-of-the-moment decision on Tyrion's part.
Hell, the whole event was pretty much shown minute-for-minute of real time on the show. It doesn't get any less rushed than that.
The only differences I can remember is that Shae and Tysha have been merged into a single character (Shae), and that Shae tried to talk her way out when confronted by Tyrion. Both changes are rather insignificant relative to the adaptation standards show set since the very first season.
Except for the fact that Tyrion had always believed he had been a fool for falling for a whore and then Jamie told him that that had been a lie and Tysha had actually loved him which makes the already traumatic gang rape considerably worse. And then at the height of his rage he gets an opportunity to act on said rage. Whilst in the show it's much more a case of "oh look i can escape screw that lets kill off Tywin." Perhaps that is a slight exaggeration but he has clear motivation for going up there in the books but not really in the show. That's not to say that it's perfect in the books because it isn't.
On June 17 2014 22:46 layabout wrote: It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
There was never any build up for the Tywin detour of Tyrion's escape, and it didn't make any more (or less) sense in the books. It was just as abrupt as it was in the show, because it was a spur-of-the-moment decision on Tyrion's part.
Hell, the whole event was pretty much shown minute-for-minute of real time on the show. It doesn't get any less rushed than that.
The only differences I can remember is that Shae and Tysha have been merged into a single character (Shae), and that Shae tried to talk her way out when confronted by Tyrion. Both changes are rather insignificant relative to the adaptation standards show set since the very first season.
Except for the fact that Tyrion had always believed he had been a fool for falling for a whore and then Jamie told him that that had been a lie and Tysha had actually loved him which makes the already traumatic gang rape considerably worse. And then at the height of his rage he gets an opportunity to act on said rage. Whilst in the show it's much more a case of "oh look i can escape screw that lets kill off Tywin." Perhaps that is a slight exaggeration but he has clear motivation for going up there in the books but not really in the show. That's not to say that it's perfect in the books because it isn't.
This. Book motivation makes more sense. Also the Tysha reveal was shocking. I remember I was thinking about this after the reveal and how I would do the same as Tyrion, go kill the person that took away one person that truly loved me (except for Jamie). It is one of the most shocking reveals in the book for any character and they removed it from the show but idiots left the motivation and sentences similar and covered it with Shae which makes 0 sense. They even changed that she tries to kill him... and this is not the first time they remove important parts of the book but don't change the scenes so they make sense. For example last season Catelyn released Jamie before knowing Bran and Rickon are "dead". I don't know what kind of idiots writers on HBO are, but I wish they were not involved with the show.
On June 17 2014 14:23 GWdeathscythe wrote: No "you don't shit gold after all" reference in Tywin murderer? damn I'm so frustrated, I was waiting for this moment for so long.
Putting that line in the show would have been one of the worst things they could ever done. It's the last line in the chapter, and it works there because it's not part of the dialogue. Not to mention that it's common knowledge at that point that there's a saying about the Lannisters, something that's only mentioned once in the show (if I remember correctly). Having Tyrion say that would make him look like a stupid 80s action film figure who throws around cheesy catchphrases, completely destroying all the tension they have built up until that point.
This is a prime example of the producers not including something from the books because it would never, ever work in the show.
On June 17 2014 16:41 HolyArrow wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:13 Conti wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:02 Irrelevant Label wrote: That the unsullied and other non-readers rate it highly but almost all the readers are at least partially grumbling about disappointment is probably the strongest statement to date of how far the show is from the books. In a vacuum it looks really good, but in the context of knowing an alternative it looks mediocre. That is a pretty big separation.
I was thinking about that, too. Hell, even /r/asoiaf is up in arms about everything (especially LSH). Usually they're the voice of reason, but now they're worse than some ragers here. Man. And it's just going to get worse. The show is going to deviate more from the books, characters will change, motivations will change, actions will change. And the book readers are going to hate all of that, no matter whether, on its own, it is perfectly fine, or even genuinely good, or even better than the books (which to most seems to be literally impossible).
I really don't understand how people can watch the show and expect it to be like the books. Now at the latest they should realize that that's just not going to happen, and if you can't live with that, the best idea is to stop watching the show. Or, alternatively, watch the show as its own entity and rate it as such. It's a perfectly fine show. In fact, it's one of the best shows around right now, hands down.
Similarly, I find it absolutely hilarious how popular Stannis has become among the unsullied thanks to the last episode. Man, some book readers must be fuming about how people dare to like show Stannis so much.
Why would book readers be fuming about how much people are liking show Stannis now? The main gripe among a lot of book readers is that Stannis is portrayed too negatively in the show and thus isn't liked enough amongst the show-only people.
Look at the other thread, look at reddit. The unsullied love Stannis now. How dare they love such a badly adapted character.
Majority of viewers would like the line, many wouldn't care anyone annoyed forgets by next season.It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
Come on. The vast majority of the viewers wouldn't even know what the hell Tyrion was talking about. People would be either confused or indifferent about that line, and it would simply be bad writing ruining a scene, nothing else.
I think we just have different ideas of the viewers.
From the people I've met a lot just want to see Peter Dinklage delivering sharp and or amusing lines and rather than caring about Shae they see her more as an annoyance. People really liked Oberyn, people liked Olenna who all but disappeared this series and people love Tywin. From the moment Tyrion looks at the crossbow or if you are slower open the toilet door it's obvious that Tywins is going to die. The response to this was either "oh shit" from people that are all about the titties and quips, or just a groan.
Why would they groan? Because instead of running away and escaping (the obvious thing to do) Tyrion mystically knows about a secret passage, there is no presence of any guards a "wtf", shae is there and tries to kill Tyrion another "wtf" Tyrion seems to go down a corridor to find Tywin on the loo a bit of a "wtf" and him killing tywin for calling Shae who was a whore that he killed and that betrayed him a "whore" again "wtf". It also happens really quickly and there isn't a real sense of the anger or nervousness that Tyrion should have. To them it was less tense and dramatic but felt like a cheap way of yet another killing off for the sake of it and now most of the interesting and likable characters are dead or not in kings landing which is the most bit of the show.
So what harm could a throwback to book readers and a cheesy-ish line on top on a great turdheap do? Besides We all know it would have been delivered brilliantly and the show is full of things happening because they are in the books but not quit fitting with the story as told, for instance that entire scene.
I don't really care much and it's possible my hatred for Shae blinding me
Look at the other thread. The people loved the episode. And that includes the Tyrion/Tywin scene. There was no "wtf" going on, and I can assure you that the vast majority saw the tension and the drama and the anger and everything the scene tried to portray. There really was nothing cheap about it (other than the missing guards, I guess. But come to think of it, there were no guards in the books either, right?). The only people who didn't like the scene and the episode are the book readers.
And the problem is still: People would literally have no idea what the hell Tyrion was talking about if he'd say that line. It wouldn't be a nice little throwback for the bookreaders, it would be utter nonsense for the non-book readers. Yes, the saying has been mentioned once in the show, but that's just not enough for such a pivotal scene. You're basically ruining the scene for >80% of the viewers just to make a few book readers happy. And, hell, even then I would vastly prefer Tyrion not saying the line. He didn't say the line in the books, for starters. And it would have been terrible if he had. I just see no way of that ever actually fitting into the scene.
Maybe we'll get some enemies of Tywin in the next episode making that joke. That would be appropriate and funny.
There was at least one person who posted in the other thread that Tyrion going after his father didn't seem to make sense. Hilariously, it was in the same post as mocking book-readers for complaining because 'they changed it, now it sucks!'
I feel like the show has become an attempt to show off scenes from the books rather than tell the story of the books. We get so many short, disconnected snippets with little buildup or real background built around them, killing tension and making the show feel more like a highlight reel. S1, and even S2, had dialogues added between characters to fill in backstory, to display thoughts that would otherwise just be narration in the books. Now most of those motivations are outright cut to make space for more 'badass' scenes.
(Not including the 1-liner about not shitting gold is a completely appropriate thing, though, for all the reasons already posted).
I would argue that this is simply the show becoming a victim of the ever increasing complexity of the books. They managed to adapt book 1 just fine, and I doubt anyone has any complaints about that. But they simply couldn't continue to increase the show's complexity in the same way the books grew more and more complex. Instead, they were (and are) forced to cut characters and simplify plots, while still forced to shorten screen time for pretty much everyone thanks to more and more characters showing up. It inevitably leads to a lower quality, but I don't see what you can do about that. In a book, you can simply write 1000 more pages than you wanted to (like GRRM likes to do), but you can't just film 5 more hours of footage and show that.
I'm quite looking forward to seeing how they do things when they don't have to adapt the books (since they're running out of them), but instead just tell the story, whose end they already know.
On June 17 2014 14:23 GWdeathscythe wrote: No "you don't shit gold after all" reference in Tywin murderer? damn I'm so frustrated, I was waiting for this moment for so long.
Putting that line in the show would have been one of the worst things they could ever done. It's the last line in the chapter, and it works there because it's not part of the dialogue. Not to mention that it's common knowledge at that point that there's a saying about the Lannisters, something that's only mentioned once in the show (if I remember correctly). Having Tyrion say that would make him look like a stupid 80s action film figure who throws around cheesy catchphrases, completely destroying all the tension they have built up until that point.
This is a prime example of the producers not including something from the books because it would never, ever work in the show.
On June 17 2014 16:41 HolyArrow wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:13 Conti wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:02 Irrelevant Label wrote: That the unsullied and other non-readers rate it highly but almost all the readers are at least partially grumbling about disappointment is probably the strongest statement to date of how far the show is from the books. In a vacuum it looks really good, but in the context of knowing an alternative it looks mediocre. That is a pretty big separation.
I was thinking about that, too. Hell, even /r/asoiaf is up in arms about everything (especially LSH). Usually they're the voice of reason, but now they're worse than some ragers here. Man. And it's just going to get worse. The show is going to deviate more from the books, characters will change, motivations will change, actions will change. And the book readers are going to hate all of that, no matter whether, on its own, it is perfectly fine, or even genuinely good, or even better than the books (which to most seems to be literally impossible).
I really don't understand how people can watch the show and expect it to be like the books. Now at the latest they should realize that that's just not going to happen, and if you can't live with that, the best idea is to stop watching the show. Or, alternatively, watch the show as its own entity and rate it as such. It's a perfectly fine show. In fact, it's one of the best shows around right now, hands down.
Similarly, I find it absolutely hilarious how popular Stannis has become among the unsullied thanks to the last episode. Man, some book readers must be fuming about how people dare to like show Stannis so much.
Why would book readers be fuming about how much people are liking show Stannis now? The main gripe among a lot of book readers is that Stannis is portrayed too negatively in the show and thus isn't liked enough amongst the show-only people.
Look at the other thread, look at reddit. The unsullied love Stannis now. How dare they love such a badly adapted character.
Majority of viewers would like the line, many wouldn't care anyone annoyed forgets by next season.It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
Come on. The vast majority of the viewers wouldn't even know what the hell Tyrion was talking about. People would be either confused or indifferent about that line, and it would simply be bad writing ruining a scene, nothing else.
I think we just have different ideas of the viewers.
From the people I've met a lot just want to see Peter Dinklage delivering sharp and or amusing lines and rather than caring about Shae they see her more as an annoyance. People really liked Oberyn, people liked Olenna who all but disappeared this series and people love Tywin. From the moment Tyrion looks at the crossbow or if you are slower open the toilet door it's obvious that Tywins is going to die. The response to this was either "oh shit" from people that are all about the titties and quips, or just a groan.
Why would they groan? Because instead of running away and escaping (the obvious thing to do) Tyrion mystically knows about a secret passage, there is no presence of any guards a "wtf", shae is there and tries to kill Tyrion another "wtf" Tyrion seems to go down a corridor to find Tywin on the loo a bit of a "wtf" and him killing tywin for calling Shae who was a whore that he killed and that betrayed him a "whore" again "wtf". It also happens really quickly and there isn't a real sense of the anger or nervousness that Tyrion should have. To them it was less tense and dramatic but felt like a cheap way of yet another killing off for the sake of it and now most of the interesting and likable characters are dead or not in kings landing which is the most bit of the show.
So what harm could a throwback to book readers and a cheesy-ish line on top on a great turdheap do? Besides We all know it would have been delivered brilliantly and the show is full of things happening because they are in the books but not quit fitting with the story as told, for instance that entire scene.
I don't really care much and it's possible my hatred for Shae blinding me
Look at the other thread. The people loved the episode. And that includes the Tyrion/Tywin scene. There was no "wtf" going on, and I can assure you that the vast majority saw the tension and the drama and the anger and everything the scene tried to portray. There really was nothing cheap about it (other than the missing guards, I guess. But come to think of it, there were no guards in the books either, right?). The only people who didn't like the scene and the episode are the book readers.
And the problem is still: People would literally have no idea what the hell Tyrion was talking about if he'd say that line. It wouldn't be a nice little throwback for the bookreaders, it would be utter nonsense for the non-book readers. Yes, the saying has been mentioned once in the show, but that's just not enough for such a pivotal scene. You're basically ruining the scene for >80% of the viewers just to make a few book readers happy. And, hell, even then I would vastly prefer Tyrion not saying the line. He didn't say the line in the books, for starters. And it would have been terrible if he had. I just see no way of that ever actually fitting into the scene.
Maybe we'll get some enemies of Tywin in the next episode making that joke. That would be appropriate and funny.
There was at least one person who posted in the other thread that Tyrion going after his father didn't seem to make sense. Hilariously, it was in the same post as mocking book-readers for complaining because 'they changed it, now it sucks!'
I feel like the show has become an attempt to show off scenes from the books rather than tell the story of the books. We get so many short, disconnected snippets with little buildup or real background built around them, killing tension and making the show feel more like a highlight reel. S1, and even S2, had dialogues added between characters to fill in backstory, to display thoughts that would otherwise just be narration in the books. Now most of those motivations are outright cut to make space for more 'badass' scenes.
(Not including the 1-liner about not shitting gold is a completely appropriate thing, though, for all the reasons already posted).
I would argue that this is simply the show becoming a victim of the ever increasing complexity of the books. They managed to adapt book 1 just fine, and I doubt anyone has any complaints about that. But they simply couldn't continue to increase the show's complexity in the same way the books grew more and more complex. Instead, they were (and are) forced to cut characters and simplify plots, while still forced to shorten screen time for pretty much everyone thanks to more and more characters showing up. It inevitably leads to a lower quality, but I don't see what you can do about that. In a book, you can simply write 1000 more pages than you wanted to (like GRRM likes to do), but you can't just film 5 more hours of footage and show that.
I'm quite looking forward to seeing how they do things when they don't have to adapt the books (since they're running out of them), but instead just tell the story, whose end they already know.
Which is great because the books suffer from the same problem. I don't think anyone would argue that books 4-5 just isn't up to the same quality as 1-3.
On June 17 2014 14:23 GWdeathscythe wrote: No "you don't shit gold after all" reference in Tywin murderer? damn I'm so frustrated, I was waiting for this moment for so long.
Putting that line in the show would have been one of the worst things they could ever done. It's the last line in the chapter, and it works there because it's not part of the dialogue. Not to mention that it's common knowledge at that point that there's a saying about the Lannisters, something that's only mentioned once in the show (if I remember correctly). Having Tyrion say that would make him look like a stupid 80s action film figure who throws around cheesy catchphrases, completely destroying all the tension they have built up until that point.
This is a prime example of the producers not including something from the books because it would never, ever work in the show.
On June 17 2014 16:41 HolyArrow wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:13 Conti wrote:
On June 17 2014 08:02 Irrelevant Label wrote: That the unsullied and other non-readers rate it highly but almost all the readers are at least partially grumbling about disappointment is probably the strongest statement to date of how far the show is from the books. In a vacuum it looks really good, but in the context of knowing an alternative it looks mediocre. That is a pretty big separation.
I was thinking about that, too. Hell, even /r/asoiaf is up in arms about everything (especially LSH). Usually they're the voice of reason, but now they're worse than some ragers here. Man. And it's just going to get worse. The show is going to deviate more from the books, characters will change, motivations will change, actions will change. And the book readers are going to hate all of that, no matter whether, on its own, it is perfectly fine, or even genuinely good, or even better than the books (which to most seems to be literally impossible).
I really don't understand how people can watch the show and expect it to be like the books. Now at the latest they should realize that that's just not going to happen, and if you can't live with that, the best idea is to stop watching the show. Or, alternatively, watch the show as its own entity and rate it as such. It's a perfectly fine show. In fact, it's one of the best shows around right now, hands down.
Similarly, I find it absolutely hilarious how popular Stannis has become among the unsullied thanks to the last episode. Man, some book readers must be fuming about how people dare to like show Stannis so much.
Why would book readers be fuming about how much people are liking show Stannis now? The main gripe among a lot of book readers is that Stannis is portrayed too negatively in the show and thus isn't liked enough amongst the show-only people.
Look at the other thread, look at reddit. The unsullied love Stannis now. How dare they love such a badly adapted character.
Majority of viewers would like the line, many wouldn't care anyone annoyed forgets by next season.It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
Come on. The vast majority of the viewers wouldn't even know what the hell Tyrion was talking about. People would be either confused or indifferent about that line, and it would simply be bad writing ruining a scene, nothing else.
I think we just have different ideas of the viewers.
From the people I've met a lot just want to see Peter Dinklage delivering sharp and or amusing lines and rather than caring about Shae they see her more as an annoyance. People really liked Oberyn, people liked Olenna who all but disappeared this series and people love Tywin. From the moment Tyrion looks at the crossbow or if you are slower open the toilet door it's obvious that Tywins is going to die. The response to this was either "oh shit" from people that are all about the titties and quips, or just a groan.
Why would they groan? Because instead of running away and escaping (the obvious thing to do) Tyrion mystically knows about a secret passage, there is no presence of any guards a "wtf", shae is there and tries to kill Tyrion another "wtf" Tyrion seems to go down a corridor to find Tywin on the loo a bit of a "wtf" and him killing tywin for calling Shae who was a whore that he killed and that betrayed him a "whore" again "wtf". It also happens really quickly and there isn't a real sense of the anger or nervousness that Tyrion should have. To them it was less tense and dramatic but felt like a cheap way of yet another killing off for the sake of it and now most of the interesting and likable characters are dead or not in kings landing which is the most bit of the show.
So what harm could a throwback to book readers and a cheesy-ish line on top on a great turdheap do? Besides We all know it would have been delivered brilliantly and the show is full of things happening because they are in the books but not quit fitting with the story as told, for instance that entire scene.
I don't really care much and it's possible my hatred for Shae blinding me
Look at the other thread. The people loved the episode. And that includes the Tyrion/Tywin scene. There was no "wtf" going on, and I can assure you that the vast majority saw the tension and the drama and the anger and everything the scene tried to portray. There really was nothing cheap about it (other than the missing guards, I guess. But come to think of it, there were no guards in the books either, right?). The only people who didn't like the scene and the episode are the book readers.
And the problem is still: People would literally have no idea what the hell Tyrion was talking about if he'd say that line. It wouldn't be a nice little throwback for the bookreaders, it would be utter nonsense for the non-book readers. Yes, the saying has been mentioned once in the show, but that's just not enough for such a pivotal scene. You're basically ruining the scene for >80% of the viewers just to make a few book readers happy. And, hell, even then I would vastly prefer Tyrion not saying the line. He didn't say the line in the books, for starters. And it would have been terrible if he had. I just see no way of that ever actually fitting into the scene.
Maybe we'll get some enemies of Tywin in the next episode making that joke. That would be appropriate and funny.
There was at least one person who posted in the other thread that Tyrion going after his father didn't seem to make sense. Hilariously, it was in the same post as mocking book-readers for complaining because 'they changed it, now it sucks!'
I feel like the show has become an attempt to show off scenes from the books rather than tell the story of the books. We get so many short, disconnected snippets with little buildup or real background built around them, killing tension and making the show feel more like a highlight reel. S1, and even S2, had dialogues added between characters to fill in backstory, to display thoughts that would otherwise just be narration in the books. Now most of those motivations are outright cut to make space for more 'badass' scenes.
(Not including the 1-liner about not shitting gold is a completely appropriate thing, though, for all the reasons already posted).
I would argue that this is simply the show becoming a victim of the ever increasing complexity of the books. They managed to adapt book 1 just fine, and I doubt anyone has any complaints about that. But they simply couldn't continue to increase the show's complexity in the same way the books grew more and more complex. Instead, they were (and are) forced to cut characters and simplify plots, while still forced to shorten screen time for pretty much everyone thanks to more and more characters showing up. It inevitably leads to a lower quality, but I don't see what you can do about that. In a book, you can simply write 1000 more pages than you wanted to (like GRRM likes to do), but you can't just film 5 more hours of footage and show that.
I'm quite looking forward to seeing how they do things when they don't have to adapt the books (since they're running out of them), but instead just tell the story, whose end they already know.
In general I agree - they want to show off all the characters constantly, and as the result is what I explained.
However, I don't like the idea that it's necessary, given how much show OC filler we've been given that does absolutely nothing to develop the plot or really contribute. On top of that, some storylines have been raced far ahead of the others. The show could have slowed down to focus on the storylines that need more time rather than trying to constantly show all of them, and end up adding bonus filler/cutting depth to try to pace things.
TBH i don't get the MASSIVE hate after this episode. I don't think this episode was worse in terms of book adaptation than many before. Sure i would have loved it to be more like the book in a few situations, but i don't think it was THAT BAD, the only scenes i really didn't like were the one with the skeletons, and the Cersei stuff. So yeah i thought it was decent, not good enough for the massive hype before the episode, but not nearly as bad as many here make it out to be.
I find it hilarious that anyone can believe a show only watcher could come up with R + L = J. There is honestly no information at all to put that shit together. Even guessing at Ned not being his father is a huge stretch given that his parentage is at no point mentioned or brought into question past season one.
I also find it funny how many book readers tend to say they were able to come up with that theory on their first read through as well. I wonder what the poll numbers would look like if we put that up..
On June 17 2014 22:46 layabout wrote: It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
There was never any build up for the Tywin detour of Tyrion's escape, and it didn't make any more (or less) sense in the books. It was just as abrupt as it was in the show, because it was a spur-of-the-moment decision on Tyrion's part.
Hell, the whole event was pretty much shown minute-for-minute of real time on the show. It doesn't get any less rushed than that.
The only differences I can remember is that Shae and Tysha have been merged into a single character (Shae), and that Shae tried to talk her way out when confronted by Tyrion. Both changes are rather insignificant relative to the adaptation standards show set since the very first season.
Except for the fact that Tyrion had always believed he had been a fool for falling for a whore and then Jamie told him that that had been a lie and Tysha had actually loved him which makes the already traumatic gang rape considerably worse. And then at the height of his rage he gets an opportunity to act on said rage. Whilst in the show it's much more a case of "oh look i can escape screw that lets kill off Tywin." Perhaps that is a slight exaggeration but he has clear motivation for going up there in the books but not really in the show. That's not to say that it's perfect in the books because it isn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because my memory is somewhat vague, but the trigger for Tyrion's decision to visit Tywin seemed to be the fact that his escape route happened to pass by the secret entrance into Tywin's (and his former) offices. He never intended to go out of his way to get into Tywin's bedroom and murder him just because he learned the truth about Tysha in the books. Both in the books and in the show, it was a nearly instantaneous decision, and Tyrion has a long fucking list of reasons to go with it with or without Tysha on that list.
That aside, It's the singling out this one episode as somehow particularly bad that doesn't make any sense to me. For example, how is merging Tysha and Shae worse than replacing Jeyne Westerling with a no-name foreigner field medic chick? That change altered Robb's character in a much more drastic way, but the reactions to that have been fairly mild. Just like rape scene altered Jaime's character, a bunch of stuff altered Stannis' character, and so on.
Point being that the show is more or less consistent about the extent to which they're willing to change things around, and changes they've made in the Tyrion escape sequence fall firmly within those established boundaries. What I'm trying to say is that nothing's been done that hasn't already been done countless times so far to a multitude of characters.
People only complain about the episode because of the self-made hype around it. People expect some things to happen and they didn't happen. Show watchers didn't love the episode because they are satified with mediocrity, like some people are saying, it's the book readers that dislike the episode for reasons that are not just it's quality as a TV episode.
On June 17 2014 22:46 layabout wrote: It might set a different tone but to be honest I didn't feel much tension in that scene because the build up to it was rushed and didn't make a whole lot of sense
There was never any build up for the Tywin detour of Tyrion's escape, and it didn't make any more (or less) sense in the books. It was just as abrupt as it was in the show, because it was a spur-of-the-moment decision on Tyrion's part.
Hell, the whole event was pretty much shown minute-for-minute of real time on the show. It doesn't get any less rushed than that.
The only differences I can remember is that Shae and Tysha have been merged into a single character (Shae), and that Shae tried to talk her way out when confronted by Tyrion. Both changes are rather insignificant relative to the adaptation standards show set since the very first season.
Except for the fact that Tyrion had always believed he had been a fool for falling for a whore and then Jamie told him that that had been a lie and Tysha had actually loved him which makes the already traumatic gang rape considerably worse. And then at the height of his rage he gets an opportunity to act on said rage. Whilst in the show it's much more a case of "oh look i can escape screw that lets kill off Tywin." Perhaps that is a slight exaggeration but he has clear motivation for going up there in the books but not really in the show. That's not to say that it's perfect in the books because it isn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because my memory is somewhat vague, but the trigger for Tyrion's decision to visit Tywin seemed to be the fact that his escape route happened to pass by the secret entrance into Tywin's (and his former) offices. He never intended to go out of his way to get into Tywin's bedroom and murder him just because he learned the truth about Tysha in the books. Both in the books and in the show, it was a nearly instantaneous decision, and Tyrion has a long fucking list of reasons to go with it with or without Tysha on that list.
That aside, It's the singling out this one episode as somehow particularly bad that doesn't make any sense to me. For example, how is merging Tysha and Shae worse than replacing Jeyne Westerling with a no-name foreigner field medic chick? That change altered Robb's character in a much more drastic way, but the reactions to that have been fairly mild. Just like rape scene altered Jaime's character, a bunch of stuff altered Stannis' character, and so on.
Point being that the show is more or less consistent about the extent to which they're willing to change things around, and changes they've made in the Tyrion escape sequence fall firmly within those established boundaries. What I'm trying to say is that nothing's been done that hasn't already been done countless times so far to a multitude of characters.
Tyrion's escape in the book isn't anything like the show. You are correct in that he does suddenly realize he's below the path to Tywin's chambers and then he goes to see him. He didn't plan to prior to that, yes. However, that's probably more because Tyrion didn't think he had any opportunity to with the position he was in. The show makes it seem like Tyrion knows exactly how to get to Tywin and that he's very accessible once freed.
Another critical thing that's missing in the show was that Tyrion actually faces a pretty big obstacle in getting to Tywin which is the 200+ rung ladder he climbs. It might seem like a minor detail but I found that to be one of the most powerful moments in the book. Why? Tyrion isn't exactly a strong man, the climb must be that much more hellish for him to make but he continues on anyway. It adds further weight that urges him to turn back, more time to reflect on this decision, but he stoically continues out of anger.
In the show it just feels like he wants closure with his father. In the book Tyrion is willing to lay it all on the line because he already feels he's lost everything. I mean, he even says: "Varys, the only thing I value less than my life right now is yours." It's just a far stronger scene.
Also, I'm not getting the sense that people find this episode especially bad, just disappointing with all the hype behind it. I give this ep a solid 7/10 even with my dissatisfaction. It could have easily been a 10 though. Even ignoring the adaptation details, everything still feels unusually too rushed (even people in the non-reader thread commented on this). Furthermore, the departure between Jamie and Tyrion just feels lifeless whether there's any Tysha or not. Imo the relationship in the show between these two is illustrated far better than in the book, but the payoff (which should have been here) never really comes. It's just kind of like: "we'll..bye *hug*".
That video reminds me of the good old times when Tolkien fans were picking apart the movies scene by scene, pointing out the smallest details that were wrong. I admire the attention to detail, on the one hand. On the other hand it seems like an entirely futile effort to try and map the plots of the show onto the plots of the books, considering the show moves further and further away from the books.
That video reminds me of the good old times when Tolkien fans were picking apart the movies scene by scene, pointing out the smallest details that were wrong. I admire the attention to detail, on the one hand. On the other hand it seems like an entirely futile effort to try and map the plots of the show onto the plots of the books, considering the show moves further and further away from the books.
sure, it's futile, but it's nice to find an echo chamber when you feel like the show runners are fucking up the series more and more with each passing episode
That video reminds me of the good old times when Tolkien fans were picking apart the movies scene by scene, pointing out the smallest details that were wrong. I admire the attention to detail, on the one hand. On the other hand it seems like an entirely futile effort to try and map the plots of the show onto the plots of the books, considering the show moves further and further away from the books.
sure, it's futile, but it's nice to find an echo chamber when you feel like the show runners are fucking up the series more and more with each passing episode
But that's just the issue I have. They're not fucking it up, they are diverging from the books. It's just that some fans equate any kind of long-term divergence as "fucking it up", just because it's different.
The whole Tyrion/Shae thing is a good example. They have diverged from the books pretty much as soon as Shae showed up, a few seasons ago. Ever since then the show has developed its plot in a slightly different direction, including Tysha pretty much serving no role in the plot, or Tyrion's life. They wrote the show with that in mind. That is not bad in itself, and that is not "fucking it up", that is simply going down a different path.
Now everyone's free to like one or the other version better, and I personally do very much prefer the book version here. But on its own, without the context of the book, the show version is just fine.
The "fucking up" sentiments come from the fact that they were supposed to be based on the books and they are diverging farther and farther.+ there is that whole butterfly effect thing that's been going on -- the way they seem to have 'dealt' with it is really bewildering and vexing sometimes.
At any rate, those rantvideos are usually really annoying to watch, but i finally feel kinda like they do : S
That's what "based on" means. It's a retelling of the same story. The details, however, are up for discussion. And compared to many other adaptions, this one is pretty damn close to its source material. But yes, they are diverging further away from the books, it's inevitable. Complaining about it is not going to change that.
EPT
