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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On April 15 2013 22:44 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:27 moopie wrote:On April 15 2013 22:18 Conti wrote:On April 15 2013 22:08 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry Why not? Only point of using Edric in books is so Davos can send him away to save his and his lords "soul". And red woman already uses his blood by then but does not kill him. In the show they can have Stannis give his daughter to red woman and then Davos makes him change his mind so Red Woman only uses some of her blood but does not kill her. Gendry could also be a candidate, but she cannot get to him so easily, that would be a big flaw in the story (both book and tv). It's far more likely to be Gendry. They're not going to spontaneously introduce Stannis' daughter and act like she's just been in the background for three seasons. This isn't Lost, after all.  And doesn't it depend on how it's done? Gendry isn't really an important character in the books, and he could easily be used by Melisandre, saved by Davos and then sent home again after he lost some blood. The only thing that matters is how Melisandre will be able to abduct him, and if it will be convincing. Gendry is in the midle of the BWB atm. It would be a far bigger deus ex machina to have Melisandre pop up in the middle of the Riverlands just to snatch Gendry and come back to Dragonstone than it would to grab Edric Storm/Shireen or some other unnamed bastard of Robert's from somewhere nearby. Yes. But then again, it's Melisandre. Some good writing plus some red magic could work around that. I agree that it'd still be a bit of a stretch, however.
There are already clips of Melisandre meeting and seeing Beric, so it's pretty much confirmed.
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On April 15 2013 23:30 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:15 antelope591 wrote:On April 15 2013 22:47 Quotidian wrote:The amount of subtle spoiling in the TV-show thread is hilarious. There is obviously a bunch of people who have read the books and are making posts like
Assuming Jaime makes it back to his family at some point, i wonder what Tywin will think of him now. Being one of the greatest fighters around, would losing his main hand be enough to get him classed as a cripple?
or
So, do you guys think Dany is really going to trade one of her dragons for those slaves? That seems really out of character for her. My guess is she hands over the dragon and then commands it to kill that asshole slaver, or something similar.
it's like this after every episode -.a bunch of suspiciously accurate "guessing." meh it doesn't take a genius to figure out that dany's not gonna give up a dragon....if you're gonna classify painfully obvious guesses as spoilers u might as well put no predicting future events period -_-. To me an undercover book spoiler is something like people "guessing" its Ramsay torturing Theon and burning down Winterfell when no indication was given of it at all on the show. sure, that is one of the more obvious plot developments, Tywin being disgusted by his now-crippled son isn't though. Nor would a new viewer even know if they'd even meet again, and I don't think how Jaime is going to be received by his father is the most immediate concern for the audience either. That one is an obvious spoiler/troll
I agree that one seems trollish
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On April 15 2013 23:20 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:17 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry On April 15 2013 20:46 risk.nuke wrote:
I didn't like how they're slandering Jamies swordsmanskills. Maybe it was ment as banter from Brienne but they didn't make it come of that way. He was the best and I don't understand why they are undermining that as they cut of his hand.
Also didn't like how they made Edmure look like an incapable fool. I guess it's for the audience so they can label people easier but I really hate unjust character bashing.
Edmure IS useless, they're doing him justice because overall he just sucks How is Edmure useless? You need to reread the books and stop sucking robbs dick during that. His only fault in the books is he saw an opportunity to win a battle and he took it. Then Robb comes back and goes apeshit because his actions thwarted his grand plans when all of it is actually his own fault for not informing one of his most important if not the most important commander of his plans. Edmure gets a shit ton of blame for that from Robb. ROBB, not G.R.R.M. It's like how Robert said Rhaegar was a jerk. He didnt follow orders, which basically lost them the war.
He broke no orders. Robb ordered him to hold Riverrun, he didn't forbid him from engaging Lannisters.
If the Lannisters had crossed the fords they would had caused further damage to their lands so naturally he would move to stop it unless ordered otherwise, which he wasn't.
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So since there are no Brave Companions in the book and Vargo Hoat is just a Bolton bannerman, how are they going to handle that in regard to their alliance with the Lannisters? Will Roose just put Vargo out as an overzealous subordinate and deliver him to Tywin (or the Mountain)?
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On April 15 2013 22:36 FireSA wrote:
enjoying the season so far, esp the way they are trying to make Jamie more likeable (I do like him a lot in the books). Only story I feel is not been fleshed out enough is the Jon Snow story. Not enough mingling with wildlings or his gf maybe, but meh. Don't think I'll really care at any point as I did when reading the books..
As other have pointed out, Ep. 5 is entitled "Kissed By Fire". Since this is how wildlings refer to redheads it stands to reason that Jon and Ygritte will do the nasty during that episode. Remember there is still plenty of development after that as they have a long journey to go over the wall, then do some stuff in the Northlands and then Jon has to escape. I wonder how they will handle the battle for Castle Black since in the books we don't see how Ygritte is killed - there is the opportunity to fill that bit in.
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On April 16 2013 00:03 chocopaw wrote:
So since there are no Brave Companions in the book and Vargo Hoat is just a Bolton bannerman, how are they going to handle that in regard to their alliance with the Lannisters? Will Roose just put Vargo out as an overzealous subordinate and deliver him to Tywin (or the Mountain)?
My bet is that Roose will have them killed for maiming Jaime, under the pretense that it puts Catelyn's "deal" with Tyrion at risk (Jaime for Sansa/Arya). Obviously this is horseshit, but it would be the only way for Roose to punish them for hurting his chances with Tywin while making it seem like he is loyal to Robb prior to the Red Wedding.
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BAM! Jamie's hand is history.
Brilliant episode. Hell, I didn't know that was Ramsay until someone pointed out it was his actor last episode. This is going to be such a surprise to non-bookreaders 
Want to see some more Jon though.
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On April 15 2013 23:48 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:20 Redox wrote:On April 15 2013 23:17 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry On April 15 2013 20:46 risk.nuke wrote:
I didn't like how they're slandering Jamies swordsmanskills. Maybe it was ment as banter from Brienne but they didn't make it come of that way. He was the best and I don't understand why they are undermining that as they cut of his hand.
Also didn't like how they made Edmure look like an incapable fool. I guess it's for the audience so they can label people easier but I really hate unjust character bashing.
Edmure IS useless, they're doing him justice because overall he just sucks How is Edmure useless? You need to reread the books and stop sucking robbs dick during that. His only fault in the books is he saw an opportunity to win a battle and he took it. Then Robb comes back and goes apeshit because his actions thwarted his grand plans when all of it is actually his own fault for not informing one of his most important if not the most important commander of his plans. Edmure gets a shit ton of blame for that from Robb. ROBB, not G.R.R.M. It's like how Robert said Rhaegar was a jerk. He didnt follow orders, which basically lost them the war. He broke no orders. Robb ordered him to hold Riverrun, he didn't forbid him from engaging Lannisters. If the Lannisters had crossed the fords they would had caused further damage to their lands so naturally he would move to stop it unless ordered otherwise, which he wasn't.
Uh, no, when Robb gets back to Riverrun from the westerlands he makes it pretty clear that Edmure was to hold Riverrun and do nothing else. Both he and Brynden chew Edmure out.
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On April 15 2013 23:17 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry On April 15 2013 20:46 risk.nuke wrote:
I didn't like how they're slandering Jamies swordsmanskills. Maybe it was ment as banter from Brienne but they didn't make it come of that way. He was the best and I don't understand why they are undermining that as they cut of his hand.
Also didn't like how they made Edmure look like an incapable fool. I guess it's for the audience so they can label people easier but I really hate unjust character bashing.
Edmure IS useless, they're doing him justice because overall he just sucks How is Edmure useless? You need to reread the books and stop sucking robbs dick during that. His only fault in the books is he saw an opportunity to win a battle and he took it. Then Robb comes back and goes apeshit because his actions thwarted his grand plans when all of it is actually his own fault for not informing one of his most important if not the most important commander of his plans. Edmure gets a shit ton of blame for that from Robb. ROBB, not G.R.R.M. It's like how Robert said Rhaegar was a jerk.
Ehm, no.
He has many faults in the books, number one being that he is extremely arrogant. He wants the thrill and glory of battle, but has absolutely no experience on the field, and this shows when he "wins that battle" and undermines Robb's war effort. Also, Edmure is far from being his "most important" commander, that would probably fall to Roose Bolton (which is unfortunate).
If your commander gives you an order to hold a city, and that's it, you do not sally forth to engage your enemy in the field. That is a violation of orders whether you see it as such or not. He did it purely because he was impatient and antsy, and felt like Robb wasn't utilizing him like he should be. Yeah, his intentions were good, for the most part, but intentions don't win these wars, especially against Tywin Lannister.
They're portraying Edmure as incompetent in the show because for all intents and purposes, Edmure is incompetent in the books. He's outshined by everyone around him, and when people actually need him to do something (stay put) he manages to screw that up as well. The funeral scene was not only book-accurate, but also depicts his ineptitude very easily for viewers to understand.
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On April 16 2013 01:32 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:48 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 23:20 Redox wrote:On April 15 2013 23:17 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry On April 15 2013 20:46 risk.nuke wrote:
I didn't like how they're slandering Jamies swordsmanskills. Maybe it was ment as banter from Brienne but they didn't make it come of that way. He was the best and I don't understand why they are undermining that as they cut of his hand.
Also didn't like how they made Edmure look like an incapable fool. I guess it's for the audience so they can label people easier but I really hate unjust character bashing.
Edmure IS useless, they're doing him justice because overall he just sucks How is Edmure useless? You need to reread the books and stop sucking robbs dick during that. His only fault in the books is he saw an opportunity to win a battle and he took it. Then Robb comes back and goes apeshit because his actions thwarted his grand plans when all of it is actually his own fault for not informing one of his most important if not the most important commander of his plans. Edmure gets a shit ton of blame for that from Robb. ROBB, not G.R.R.M. It's like how Robert said Rhaegar was a jerk. He didnt follow orders, which basically lost them the war. He broke no orders. Robb ordered him to hold Riverrun, he didn't forbid him from engaging Lannisters. If the Lannisters had crossed the fords they would had caused further damage to their lands so naturally he would move to stop it unless ordered otherwise, which he wasn't. Uh, no, when Robb gets back to Riverrun from the westerlands he makes it pretty clear that Edmure was to hold Riverrun and do nothing else. Both he and Brynden chew Edmure out.
Edmure says "I didn't know" to which Robb yells something like "Why do you think I was in the westerlands, think for yourself". Solid evidence that Robb gave no order that he was to explicitly hold Riverrun but just expected Edmure to magically understand his plans. And Edmure and his warcouncil formed the strategy together, no way they would had done that if Robb had actually explicitly ordered them not to engage the lannisters. More likely Robb was just angry at the recent turn of events (most of it his own fault) and angry that his plan hadn't worked (Also his fault) and looking for someone else to blame. Edmure acting apologetic should not be interpreted as evidence that he was in the wrong but might aswell mean that he was smart enough not to bitch against and undermine his king despite him himself being the head of half the Kingdom.
I've read through the books 4-5 times. Don't argue with me if you're not on my level, I'm not interested in having a "Ye-he! Nu-uh!" conversation. Anyone have another argument for why Edmure deserves to be depicted as an incapable fool, you know other then how winning a battle against Tywin Lannister make you incompetent.
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On April 16 2013 02:02 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:17 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry On April 15 2013 20:46 risk.nuke wrote:
I didn't like how they're slandering Jamies swordsmanskills. Maybe it was ment as banter from Brienne but they didn't make it come of that way. He was the best and I don't understand why they are undermining that as they cut of his hand.
Also didn't like how they made Edmure look like an incapable fool. I guess it's for the audience so they can label people easier but I really hate unjust character bashing.
Edmure IS useless, they're doing him justice because overall he just sucks How is Edmure useless? You need to reread the books and stop sucking robbs dick during that. His only fault in the books is he saw an opportunity to win a battle and he took it. Then Robb comes back and goes apeshit because his actions thwarted his grand plans when all of it is actually his own fault for not informing one of his most important if not the most important commander of his plans. Edmure gets a shit ton of blame for that from Robb. ROBB, not G.R.R.M. It's like how Robert said Rhaegar was a jerk. Ehm, no. He has many faults in the books, number one being that he is extremely arrogant. He wants the thrill and glory of battle, but has absolutely no experience on the field, and this shows when he "wins that battle" and undermines Robb's war effort. Also, Edmure is far from being his "most important" commander, that would probably fall to Roose Bolton (which is unfortunate). If your commander gives you an order to hold a city, and that's it, you do not sally forth to engage your enemy in the field. That is a violation of orders whether you see it as such or not. He did it purely because he was impatient and antsy, and felt like Robb wasn't utilizing him like he should be. Yeah, his intentions were good, for the most part, but intentions don't win these wars, especially against Tywin Lannister. They're portraying Edmure as incompetent in the show because for all intents and purposes, Edmure is incompetent in the books. He's outshined by everyone around him, and when people actually need him to do something (stay put) he manages to screw that up as well. The funeral scene was not only book-accurate, but also depicts his ineptitude very easily for viewers to understand.
I agree he is very arrogant and eager to win glory on the battlefield. That's a flaw but it's not too different from most other people What are the other flaws? A terrible commander. No, atleast with combined efforts from his warcouncil they managed to outsmart Tywin Lannister.
Edmure is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Roose Bolton is a Lord. We're not talking about who is second in command of the army which obviously has to do about war experience. However without Edmure Robb doesn't have the Riverlands.
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On April 16 2013 02:12 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:32 DeepElemBlues wrote:On April 15 2013 23:48 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 23:20 Redox wrote:On April 15 2013 23:17 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry On April 15 2013 20:46 risk.nuke wrote:
I didn't like how they're slandering Jamies swordsmanskills. Maybe it was ment as banter from Brienne but they didn't make it come of that way. He was the best and I don't understand why they are undermining that as they cut of his hand.
Also didn't like how they made Edmure look like an incapable fool. I guess it's for the audience so they can label people easier but I really hate unjust character bashing.
Edmure IS useless, they're doing him justice because overall he just sucks How is Edmure useless? You need to reread the books and stop sucking robbs dick during that. His only fault in the books is he saw an opportunity to win a battle and he took it. Then Robb comes back and goes apeshit because his actions thwarted his grand plans when all of it is actually his own fault for not informing one of his most important if not the most important commander of his plans. Edmure gets a shit ton of blame for that from Robb. ROBB, not G.R.R.M. It's like how Robert said Rhaegar was a jerk. He didnt follow orders, which basically lost them the war. He broke no orders. Robb ordered him to hold Riverrun, he didn't forbid him from engaging Lannisters. If the Lannisters had crossed the fords they would had caused further damage to their lands so naturally he would move to stop it unless ordered otherwise, which he wasn't. Uh, no, when Robb gets back to Riverrun from the westerlands he makes it pretty clear that Edmure was to hold Riverrun and do nothing else. Both he and Brynden chew Edmure out. Edmure says "I didn't know" to which Robb yells something like "Why do you think I was in the westerlands, think for yourself". Solid evidence that Robb gave no order that he was to explicitly hold Riverrun but just expected Edmure to magically understand his plans. And Edmure and his warcouncil formed the strategy together, no way they would had done that if Robb had actually explicitly ordered them not to engage the lannisters. More likely Robb was just angry at the recent turn of events (most of it his own fault) and angry that his plan hadn't worked (Also his fault) and looking for someone else to blame. Edmure acting apologetic should not be interpreted as evidence that he was in the wrong but might aswell mean that he was smart enough not to bitch against and undermine his king despite him himself being the head of half the Kingdom. I've read through the books 4-5 times. Don't argue with me if you're not on my level, I'm not interested in having a "Ye-he! Nu-uh!" conversation. Anyone have another argument for why Edmure deserves to be depicted as an incapable fool, you know other then how winning a battle against Tywin Lannister make you incompetent.
Fine, I've read the books more times than that and you're wrong. Robb told him to hold Riverrun. Both Robb and Brynden make it clear that the battles at the fords were caused by Edmure overstepping his authority and going out to fight Tywin's army, which they make it clear they did not want Edmure to do. Brynden even says something about not telling everybody in the whole realm Robb's plans, making it clear again that not only was Edmure ordered to hold Riverrun, not give battle outside its walls, but that Robb and Brynden don't trust Edmure's competence enough to share their plans with him.
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On April 16 2013 02:26 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:02 ZasZ. wrote:On April 15 2013 23:17 risk.nuke wrote:On April 15 2013 21:58 KOFgokuon wrote:On April 15 2013 21:49 -Archangel- wrote:On April 15 2013 20:56 Doctorbeat wrote:
Dracarys next ep I think? Ep 5 is called Kissed by fire which would be more appropriate, but I don't know if they can stretch it that long.
Kissed by fire reminds me more of Hound duel vs leader of Brotherhood(forgot the name :D) and then Thoros bringing him back to life. And then probably Red Woman using Stannis's daughter blood for her magic (I think she will be used for that role instead of Edric Storm). Beric Dondarrion. They can't change the plot THAT much using Shireen, it'll probably be Gendry On April 15 2013 20:46 risk.nuke wrote:
I didn't like how they're slandering Jamies swordsmanskills. Maybe it was ment as banter from Brienne but they didn't make it come of that way. He was the best and I don't understand why they are undermining that as they cut of his hand.
Also didn't like how they made Edmure look like an incapable fool. I guess it's for the audience so they can label people easier but I really hate unjust character bashing.
Edmure IS useless, they're doing him justice because overall he just sucks How is Edmure useless? You need to reread the books and stop sucking robbs dick during that. His only fault in the books is he saw an opportunity to win a battle and he took it. Then Robb comes back and goes apeshit because his actions thwarted his grand plans when all of it is actually his own fault for not informing one of his most important if not the most important commander of his plans. Edmure gets a shit ton of blame for that from Robb. ROBB, not G.R.R.M. It's like how Robert said Rhaegar was a jerk. Ehm, no. He has many faults in the books, number one being that he is extremely arrogant. He wants the thrill and glory of battle, but has absolutely no experience on the field, and this shows when he "wins that battle" and undermines Robb's war effort. Also, Edmure is far from being his "most important" commander, that would probably fall to Roose Bolton (which is unfortunate). If your commander gives you an order to hold a city, and that's it, you do not sally forth to engage your enemy in the field. That is a violation of orders whether you see it as such or not. He did it purely because he was impatient and antsy, and felt like Robb wasn't utilizing him like he should be. Yeah, his intentions were good, for the most part, but intentions don't win these wars, especially against Tywin Lannister. They're portraying Edmure as incompetent in the show because for all intents and purposes, Edmure is incompetent in the books. He's outshined by everyone around him, and when people actually need him to do something (stay put) he manages to screw that up as well. The funeral scene was not only book-accurate, but also depicts his ineptitude very easily for viewers to understand. I agree he is very arrogant and eager to win glory on the battlefield. That's a flaw but it's not too different from most other people What are the other flaws? A terrible commander. No, atleast with combined efforts from his warcouncil they managed to outsmart Tywin Lannister. Edmure is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Roose Bolton is a Lord. We're not talking about who is second in command of the army which obviously has to do about war experience. However without Edmure Robb doesn't have the Riverlands.
You would really call that outsmarting Tywin Lannister? He may have won a battle, but prior to the Blackwater, Tywin was more than comfortable sitting where he was, letting his enemies come to him. Playing into that strategy isn't exactly outsmarting him, and is exactly the reason Robb is so angry with him. If he really wanted to "outsmart" Tywin Lannister, he would have come to the same strategical conclusion that Robb did and hold Riverrun, waiting for Lannister forces to head west so that they can surround them. Instead, he won a small battle over a non-strategic objective, that ultimately cost them more than it gained.
Edmure is freshly Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, but does he seem like he has any control at all over his vassals? Walder Frey still bosses him around like he was one of his bastard children. The Riverlands are, for the most part, in ruin. Castles burned, farmlands burned or flooded, smallfolk raped, killed, or fled. One of the key problems with Robb's battle strategy throughout the first few books is he manages to gain a mediocre ally in Riverrun and the Riverlands, while the Lannisters manage to gain a very strong ally in Highgarden and the Reach. That combined with Robb's marriage losing him the Freys, is what dissolves the morale of his army. Roose Bolton senses weakness and then seizes the North for his own.
If Robb was smart, he would have put the whole "King of the North" talk to bed as soon as it started, allied with Renly or Stannis when they were still full strength, and gotten his revenge and returned North with his sisters. For any of us that have played a FFA in an RTS, it is incredibly difficult when you are actually trying to fight all 5 other parties at once. Form an alliance that will allow you to achieve your primary objectives, and then compromise. Renly and Stannis were both open to allying themselves with Winterfell as long as once the Lannisters fell, the North would still be part of the Seven Kingdoms.
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On April 16 2013 00:45 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 00:03 chocopaw wrote:
So since there are no Brave Companions in the book and Vargo Hoat is just a Bolton bannerman, how are they going to handle that in regard to their alliance with the Lannisters? Will Roose just put Vargo out as an overzealous subordinate and deliver him to Tywin (or the Mountain)? My bet is that Roose will have them killed for maiming Jaime, under the pretense that it puts Catelyn's "deal" with Tyrion at risk (Jaime for Sansa/Arya). Obviously this is horseshit, but it would be the only way for Roose to punish them for hurting his chances with Tywin while making it seem like he is loyal to Robb prior to the Red Wedding.
So I agree that there will be some logical inconsistencies no matter how they chose to handle this. But, it doesn't matter in the long run. Hoat dies in the book anyway.
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On April 15 2013 20:03 Gryffindor_us wrote:
The change to Stannis' character irks me. He came off as a mopey, clingy sack of crap tonight. I never got that impression in the books. I have no idea why they're making that change either. To signal his desperation to win the Iron Throne? To me a fairly defining characteristic of his was the fact that he was around this extravagantly beautiful woman and sternly unaffected. He was so "just" it was cruel. Are they using the tete-a-tete between Melisandre and Stannis to foreshadow her dropping him for Jon later (the turned cheek or what not.) I don't know,
Anyway, I enjoyed the scene with the small council, Jaime losing his hand etc...
This is why I keep saying Stannis is one of the worst book to TV transitions...theyre making Stannis look like a blumbering emotional idiot when in the book he could care less about Mellisandre outside of using her to get the iron throne.
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Usually, when one is ordered to hold a position, one does not abandon said position for the chance of victory; even if the potential benefit of said victory is extremely high. The reason being that to hold a position is impossible if one happens to lose the engagement in which one is attempting to achieve victory. Say Edmure loses the battle and gets taken hostage by Tywin's forces. Suddenly the position he was supposed to be holding secure is open to all manner of upset, even, potentially, the loss of said position.
One thing about the books that always got me was that Robb, and his army, actually show a far greater talent for strategy than any other general in the books. Tyrion's plan during the assault on the capital (forgot what it was called) is well thought and well executed, but more trickery than anything else. Whereas Robb consistently shows an awareness of the effectiveness of employing the indirect method of attack and defense, true strategy as opposed to one-off tricks. It's especially sad when he dies, because you get the feeling that not only did Westoros lose perhaps it's noblest noble, but it also lost a budding military genius.
Alas, his fatal flaw was in being too trusting of his mother's advice (and others also). If it had been me, I would have let Frey believe I was coming for a wedding, and would be putting aside my wife in favor of the Frey girl, and then slaughtered him and sacked his city the moment he let me and mine inside. Why risk having a shifty bastard like that on your side when you could easily replace him with someone dumber and more loyal? Further, that would have sent the clear message to the Lannisters and everyone else that you're not the kind of person to be fucked with. Even further, it would give you the chance to reward an ally and his arms-men with new lands. And even further (though Robb admittedly could not have known of this) it would have increased his reputation as being able to sniff out a trap greatly, as he would have indirectly foiled a sinister plot on his life.
TBH, I don't see Robb's fatal error being that he broke his promise with the Frey's. Such a marriage was doomed to failure anyway, and quite honestly, smacked of weakness. A King should marry whoever he damn well pleases, and more importantly, should make no deals with his subjects for loyalty. His loyalty should be bought with brutality of action and strength of will, the "iron price" if you will. He should have largely done away with all the posturing and shown his wisdom through simplicity. The rats in the shadows have one fatal flaw, and that is that they depend on everyone trying to outsmart them at their own game. Break the rules by pulling a sword and cutting through all the knots and posturing, and you've beaten them in a way that cannot be fought. Robb and Cat and the Starks in general are not the type of people to be able to outsmart people like Tywin, Littlefinger, and the fat eunuch (forgot his name, Varys?). They play a losing game when they try to do it. They should have just blown through the webs, revealing the webs to be just that: silk and smoke and mirrors. Ironically, it is the Greyjoys who seem to realize that sad little fact: Iron can, and correctly applied, always will, beat silk. The true power lies not in the man with the plan, but the man who with his arm strength and strength of will can apply his own plan of action against all others. If one refuses to pay the iron price for one's achievements, than one cannot win the game of thrones.
But I suppose it had to be how it had to be. Poor Robb though, he was the best of them.
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Storm of Swords:
"I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?"
At the scene where Robb and Blackfish scold Edmure, right after the funeral ship.
I don't think you can put the command in more bluntly than that. You don't put people in command who need a list of 50 different parameters of what they are NOT allowed to do in direct violation of your order as king.
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On April 16 2013 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Alas, his fatal flaw was in being too trusting of his mother's advice (and others also). If it had been me, I would have let Frey believe I was coming for a wedding, and would be putting aside my wife in favor of the Frey girl, and then slaughtered him and sacked his city the moment he let me and mine inside. Why risk having a shifty bastard like that on your side when you could easily replace him with someone dumber and more loyal? Further, that would have sent the clear message to the Lannisters and everyone else that you're not the kind of person to be fucked with. Even further, it would give you the chance to reward an ally and his arms-men with new lands. And even further (though Robb admittedly could not have known of this) it would have increased his reputation as being able to sniff out a trap greatly, as he would have indirectly foiled a sinister plot on his life.
This doesn't make any sense. Slaughtering one of your bannermen for no good reason doesn't inspire confidence and morale.
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You can't have the cookie and eat it to. They either told Edmure of their plans or Edmure didn't know. Holding the castle means holding it, sending a force to attack a vulnerable enemy crossing a ford is not the same as leaving the city defenceless. Aggression is also a defence. Bottom line is Robb did not amplify the importance to let the Lannister roam free and he only has himself to blame for it. If he had ordered him to not move from the city he would had said you disobeyed an order instead of just bashing on him. A likelier explanation as I have already said is Robb did not anticipate this scenario, and didn't see think he would need to inform Edmure and then he gets mad afterwards. I asked what other flaws Edmure have in the books since you think the Tv-Show is showing him of right rather then that they made him dumber for the audience.
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so when is Sam gonna kill a white walker? im really really really looking forward to that scene
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EPT
