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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:35 PredY wrote: so when is Sam gonna kill a white walker? im really really really looking forward to that scene Seems like it got cut. Though, with the night's watch discovering a cache of dragon glass blades in the fist of the first men, I think it's already implied what the white walkers are weak against. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:31 dmnum wrote: This doesn't make any sense. If you really think slaughtering one of your bannermen for absolutely no good reason is the right way to inspire confidence and morale in your army I don't know what to tell you. Also you assume you would know about the betrayal. If you kill one of your bannermen the rest of your bannermen will fear the same thing could happen to them. They would plot to get rid of you or openly rebel out of self preservation. Did you understand nothing from the mad king and the rebellion? | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:31 dmnum wrote: This doesn't make any sense. Slaughtering one of your bannermen for no good reason doesn't inspire confidence and morale. It inspires fear and respect. Robb already had the morale for winning a bunch of battles, being a young charismatic King, being Ned's son and heir, and being a generally good guy. Confidence was an issue, but I don't see how letting one of your banner-man hold anything over you, much less try bossing you around, is confidence inspiring. Also, I never got the feeling that the Frey's were universally loved, quite the opposite actually. I got the feeling that most of Robb's men didn't like the Frey's, didn't trust the Frey's, and would have been more than willing to jump at the chance for new, rich, powerful lands. We can say that hindsight is 20/20, but tbh, I never liked Frey either. I obviously didn't think Robb would go down like that, and I clearly don't expect Robb to have foreseen a betrayal of that magnitude; but that's irrelevant. I can think of no reason why allowing Frey to remain would have been beneficial. He was never loyal to Robb and was open about that fact. IIRC, the Tully's (who are loyal) hated the Freys, and they controlled one of the most important pieces of land in the entire Westoros. Letting that kind of risk go is just flat out impossible for a fledgling King. | ||
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antelope591
Canada820 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:37 c0ldfusion wrote: Seems like it got cut. Though, with the night's watch discovering a cache of dragon glass blades in the fist of the first men, I think it's already implied what the white walkers are weak against. Doest that happen after Crasters when theyre on the way back to the wall? | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:37 c0ldfusion wrote: Seems like it got cut. Though, with the night's watch discovering a cache of dragon glass blades in the fist of the first men, I think it's already implied what the white walkers are weak against. I very much doubt it got cut.. that makes almost no sense, considering how much that redeems the character. Maybe they're just restructuring and moving stuff around, I actually don't remember the sequence of events in the books anymore | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:48 sc2superfan101 wrote: It inspires fear and respect. Robb already had the morale for winning a bunch of battles, being a young charismatic King, being Ned's son and heir, and being a generally good guy. Confidence was an issue, but I don't see how letting one of your banner-man hold anything over you, much less try bossing you around, is confidence inspiring. Also, I never got the feeling that the Frey's were universally loved, quite the opposite actually. I got the feeling that most of Robb's men didn't like the Frey's, didn't trust the Frey's, and would have been more than willing to jump at the chance for new, rich, powerful lands. We can say that hindsight is 20/20, but tbh, I never liked Frey either. I obviously didn't think Robb would go down like that, and I clearly don't expect Robb to have foreseen a betrayal of that magnitude; but that's irrelevant. I can think of no reason why allowing Frey to remain would have been beneficial. He was never loyal to Robb and was open about that fact. IIRC, the Tully's (who are loyal) hated the Freys, and they controlled one of the most important pieces of land in the entire Westoros. Letting that kind of risk go is just flat out impossible for a fledgling King. Robb stops being a good guy the moment he wipes the freys over nothing. And they had something over him because he broke a deal he made. He didn't hold his part, which already made him look bad to his bannermen. If, on top of that, he betrays the Freys, his bannermen would simply abandon/turn on him. Doesn't really matter if people love or hate the Freys, if Robb did what you say he should have done, no one would trust him anymore, and he only was king in the north because people trusted him. Also, in your previous post you stated that kings marry whoever they want to. They don't. In fact, most kings get married to someone because they had to. Joffrey and Aerys did what they wanted, and it didn't turn out well for them. In the end, it's like Lord Karstark told Robb in S03E02: He was done the moment he married Jeyne. - Edit: Sam kills the white walker before getting to Craster's Keep. However they would have to introduce Small Paul(even though he is a minor character) and then separate him, Sam and Grenn from the rest of the rest of the group. I think they will substitute the wight Sam kills at Whitetree for a White Walker, even thought by then it'll be only him and Gilly, so he probably won't be "Sam the Slayer" in the tv show. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:07 daemir wrote: Storm of Swords: "I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?" At the scene where Robb and Blackfish scold Edmure, right after the funeral ship. I don't think you can put the command in more bluntly than that. You don't put people in command who need a list of 50 different parameters of what they are NOT allowed to do in direct violation of your order as king. EDMURE DID HOLD RIVERRUN. Who is holding Riverrun when Robb arrives? Edmure. Edmure held riverrun. He did not directly violate any of Robb's orders. It is Robb's fault for not telling Edmure his plans. Edmure is Robb's most powerful vassal, and needs to be in the loop | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 16 2013 05:06 dmnum wrote: Robb stops being a good guy the moment he wipes the freys over nothing. And they had something over him because he broke a deal he made. He didn't hold his part, which already made him look bad to his bannermen. If, on top of that, he betrays the Freys, his bannermen would simply abandon/turn on him. Doesn't really matter if people love or hate the Freys, if Robb did what you say he should have done, no one would trust him anymore, and he only was king in the north because people trusted him. Also, in your previous post you stated that kings marry whoever they want to. They don't. In fact, most kings get married to someone because they had to. Joffrey and Aerys did what they wanted, and it didn't turn out well for them. In the end, it's like Lord Karstark told Robb in S03E02: He was done the moment he married Jeyne. He wouldn't be wiping them out over nothing. He would be removing an obvious liability that no one likes and securing the most important piece of land in his kingdom for someone more loyal. Breaking the deal looked bad to his bannermen because it made him look like an idiot. If he plays it like Machiavelli than they suddenly realize that he's 1) not an idiot, 2) not a weakling. Why would his banner-men, who just received new lands, just got slapped in the face by how brutally their King deals with disloyalty, and who don't like the Frey's anyway suddenly turn on Robb for it? It's ridiculous to assume that someone like Roose Bolton would suddenly freak out over how mean and bad it was for Robb to do something like that to his buddies. More likely, someone like Roose would shit his pants and immediately stop all plotting against Robb. The Tully's would be happy to see the Freys gone, and the rest of Robb's men would be happy to see that their King is a hard-ass who can do the dirty deed if it's necessary. A King cannot rule "because people trust him." Sure at first that might work, but eventually he had to prove himself or one of two things happens: 1) he is betrayed and killed, or 2) he becomes a puppet. Only by doing something drastic, a show of force so shocking and unexpected that literally no one sees it coming would be sufficient at showing, without any doubt, that Robb is no puppet, and that plotting against him is a quick way to be killed. Obviously Kings should marry connected people. But Robb didn't have to, and even if he did, marrying a Frey is the worst idea he ever could have had. When one of your banner-men has you by the balls and starts making demands for your loyalty, you either crush him then and there, or you crush him later. You don't try dealing with someone like that as an equal, because a King can be no one's equal. A King must be greater than all others. Did anyone turn away from the Lannisters when they broke every rule in the book by paying the Freys and Boltons off? No. Why? Because they knew that they would be next on the hit-list if they tried. It's ridiculous to think that "trust" or "loyalty" is what keeps the Houses going: it is fear and respect. Robb taking out an openly disloyal and openly insubordinate banner-man would only increase the fear. Robb rewarding those lands to a more loyal, more easily controlled banner-man would give him respect. The added benefit of arranging marriages with his heir and other children with whomever gets the Twins would give him even more respect and loyalty. The added benefit of then connecting that Twins house with other houses through marriages, effectively giving every one of his subjects more lands and prestige would solidify the deal. Fear and respect. Marrying Jeyne is a red herring. The problem was in that he was never willing to impose his will upon his subjects. He tried dealing with them, and begging them, and sometimes he commanded them; but not once did he impose upon them. Not once did he force obedience through cunning and strength of will. Well, actually, he did once, when he had his wolf attack the bearded guy. But that was a tiny show of power. Robb needed a grand statement that he was as brutal and cunning as Tywin, or more. Eliminating the Freys? That would be that statement. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:32 risk.nuke wrote: You can't have the cookie and eat it to. They either told Edmure of their plans or Edmure didn't know. Holding the castle means holding it, sending a force to attack a vulnerable enemy crossing a ford is not the same as leaving the city defenceless. Aggression is also a defence. Bottom line is Robb did not amplify the importance to let the Lannister roam free and he only has himself to blame for it. If he had ordered him to not move from the city he would had said you disobeyed an order instead of just bashing on him. A likelier explanation as I have already said is Robb did not anticipate this scenario, and didn't see think he would need to inform Edmure and then he gets mad afterwards. I asked what other flaws Edmure have in the books since you think the Tv-Show is showing him of right rather then that they made him dumber for the audience. If Robb didn't anticipate Tywin marching west, why did he and Brynden say it was their plan for him to come west and give him battle at a picked location? | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On April 16 2013 05:53 DeepElemBlues wrote: If Robb didn't anticipate Tywin marching west, why did he and Brynden say it was their plan for him to come west and give him battle at a picked location? Marching west does not equal to march west in range of Riverrun. | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
He wouldn't be wiping them out over nothing. He would be removing an obvious liability that no one likes and securing the most important piece of land in his kingdom for someone more loyal. Breaking the deal looked bad to his bannermen because it made him look like an idiot. If he plays it like Machiavelli than they suddenly realize that he's 1) not an idiot, 2) not a weakling. Why would his banner-men, who just received new lands, just got slapped in the face by how brutally their King deals with disloyalty, and who don't like the Frey's anyway suddenly turn on Robb for it? It's ridiculous to assume that someone like Roose Bolton would suddenly freak out over how mean and bad it was for Robb to do something like that to his buddies. More likely, someone like Roose would shit his pants and immediately stop all plotting against Robb. The Tully's would be happy to see the Freys gone, and the rest of Robb's men would be happy to see that their King is a hard-ass who can do the dirty deed if it's necessary. What? Again, the Freys became a liability the moment Robb married Jeyne. He made a deal with the Freys because he needed to get through the Twins quickly to save his father. Backstabbing them after means that he has to kill a part of his army, since Lord Walder provided him with some men. Given that Robb was already down in numbers compared to the Lannisters, destroying a part of his army for, again, no good reason, is essentially game over. You fail to realize that securing the loyalty of your men means nothing if you can't defeat the enemy. Did anyone turn away from the Lannisters when they broke every rule in the book by paying the Freys and Boltons off? No. Why? Because they knew that they would be next on the hit-list if they tried. It's ridiculous to think that "trust" or "loyalty" is what keeps the Houses going: it is fear and respect. The only thing that's ridiculous is this example. The paying of the Freys and Boltons won the war for the Lannisters. In Robb's eyes, killing the Freys would accomplish nothing. The men lost all respect for him the moment he thought with his dick instead of his head and married Jeyne. Fear without respect means that people will take the first chance to fuck you over. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On April 16 2013 05:57 risk.nuke wrote: Marching west does not equal to march west in range of Riverrun. Ok well you're just grasping at straws now. Edmure defended the fords of the Trident, preventing Tywin from passing. Edmure thought that Tywin would besiege Riverrun which makes zero sense since Robb's army could have returned from the West and cut it to pieces from the flank and behind, just like he did Jaime's army at the Battle of the Camps. Edmure's actions turned out to be a great strategic blunder and was in fact against King Robb's orders. GRRM even foreshadows that Edmure will blunder with Catelyn's fears when Edmure rides out to the fords, remembering how he'd already been beaten once. The first time he blundered tactically, the second time strategically. What the book actually says > your interpretation of it. Anyway I'm getting the feeling that Melisandre is going to be giving the fiery kiss of life to Jon Snow and that Jon Snow might turn out to be the wight-king instead of Stannis. Beric was basically an undead, albeit an intelligent one, after being restored by Thoros. The Others will probably be able to take control of him when they attack the Wall. Assuming that he did in fact die and has to be revived, maybe he's just badly injured. | ||
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ecstazy
Russian Federation59 Posts
On April 16 2013 03:03 c0ldfusion wrote: So I agree that there will be some logical inconsistencies no matter how they chose to handle this. But, it doesn't matter in the long run. Hoat dies in the book anyway. Roose could just tell Tywin that Robb's men were the ones who cut off Jaime's hand. Seems reasonable. It's not even a complete lie since at the time Bolton's men were in fact Robb's men (at least officially). | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 15 2013 23:15 antelope591 wrote: meh it doesn't take a genius to figure out that dany's not gonna give up a dragon....if you're gonna classify painfully obvious guesses as spoilers u might as well put no predicting future events period -_-. To me an undercover book spoiler is something like people "guessing" its Ramsay torturing Theon and burning down Winterfell when no indication was given of it at all on the show. I only realized it was him when I looked at the IMDB page, but yeah a non reader would never have known what Ramsay's about. | ||
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
And the Arya/Gendry/Hot Pie scene was surprisingly good and sad, too. And all the Theon stuff is really good as well. So many of the new scenes are just so, so good. <3 Edit: Oh, and how could I forget the silent scene of the small council. That was just brilliant. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On April 16 2013 06:54 DeepElemBlues wrote: Ok well you're just grasping at straws now. Edmure defended the fords of the Trident, preventing Tywin from passing. Edmure thought that Tywin would besiege Riverrun which makes zero sense since Robb's army could have returned from the West and cut it to pieces from the flank and behind, just like he did Jaime's army at the Battle of the Camps. Edmure's actions turned out to be a great strategic blunder and was in fact against King Robb's orders. GRRM even foreshadows that Edmure will blunder with Catelyn's fears when Edmure rides out to the fords, remembering how he'd already been beaten once. The first time he blundered tactically, the second time strategically. What the book actually says > your interpretation of it. Anyway I'm getting the feeling that Melisandre is going to be giving the fiery kiss of life to Jon Snow and that Jon Snow might turn out to be the wight-king instead of Stannis. Beric was basically an undead, albeit an intelligent one, after being restored by Thoros. The Others will probably be able to take control of him when they attack the Wall. Assuming that he did in fact die and has to be revived, maybe he's just badly injured. Your mistake is you're trying to claim to know what's good for Tywin to do, what he would do and how things would play out. You base your evidence on a lot of speculation, especially on that last part. I think Tywin knows that better then you sorry. Tywin tried crossing those fords because Tywin wanted to cross those fords, he had some purpose for it since Tywin does nothing without a purpose. I'm getting tired of you trying to spin in new directions after your previous route fails. Back to Was Edmure ordered not to engage Lannisters? No. I've posted several post on why Edmure didn't have specific orders or were in any way forbidden to engage the Lannister and everything in the books support this claim. You've yet to counter them with anything but "nu-uh he was ordered too" arguments which was precisely what I wanted to avoid, I have no interest in arguing with a phantom person in denial on the internet, 'I ordered you to hold Riverrrun, nothing more' Nothing more. He didn't order him to engage the Lannisters but he also didn't order him not to engage the Lannisters. He was left to and expected to make up his own decisions. What the book actually says=my interpretation of it. I suggest you reread the books a couple of more times. They are good reading. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On April 16 2013 07:15 Drowsy wrote: I only realized it was him when I looked at the IMDB page, but yeah a non reader would never have known what Ramsay's about. I agree there's a bunch of fishy comments however there are pieces to Ramsey burning winterfell. *Rooses bastard is the only northerner force sent to Winterfell. *The ironborn surrenders to a northern force and leaves. *Winterfell is burnt down. | ||
zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On April 16 2013 02:12 risk.nuke wrote: I've read through the books 4-5 times. Don't argue with me if you're not on my level, I'm not interested in having a "Ye-he! Nu-uh!" conversation. There is really no need to be an asshole about this. | ||
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