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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On April 14 2013 21:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 21:05 Conti wrote:
Are you trying to deliver the most over the top, silliest, most one-sided interpretations of everything? Because if you are, you're doing a really, really good job. It's getting a bit old by now, though. No, I just look at things differently. I tend to take an author's word less in the context of the story. While I'm being a little facetious with the whole Ned/Cat thing, I really do hate those characters with a passion. And I really do think it's not unintentional that people who fuck with Sansa end up dead or worse. And I really do think that Sansa is the best character in the series.
There's nothing wrong with any of that, and a lot of reasonable arguments can be made supporting your positions. But I wouldn't want to exchange these arguments with you, because to me it feels like I'm talking to Rush Limbaugh here. Everything you say is full of polemic points and over-the-top silly exaggerations that I want to instinctively have the opposite opinion of whatever you say, just to distance myself from the way you say it. 
On April 14 2013 21:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I like really analyzing the story, even though I'm not the biggest fan of it ever. It's very interesting to think about the ins-and-outs, but people tend to take a very one-sided view of it. They hear from a bunch of characters, good and bad, that Ned is honorable and awesome, so they think he's honorable and awesome. They see Sansa being mean to Arya from Arya's POV so they think Sansa is just stupid and mean. I try to take a longer view of things. Cat isn't smart just because she and other characters say that she is. Ned isn't honorable just because he and other characters say he is. And Sansa isn't a bitch (or too much of one) just because other characters say she is. It's like that with Tyrion too. I think Tyrion is very interesting; but ultimately a terrible person who honestly should die. Tragic sure, but can still be a very cruel, and show a great lack of empathy in some cases. He's a fan favorite, but I tend to like other characters much more, and can't help rooting against Tyrion a bit.
It's not against the rules to take a different PoV about the series, is it? And while I exaggerate a bit, 90% of what I'm saying is serious, and supported by context within the book.
You should be the last person accusing others of having a one-sided view.  In fact, I get the vibe that you enjoy having a minority opinion just for the sake of having a minority opinion. Everyone loves Tyrion? Well, gotta find some reasons not to like him. That's gonna show 'em!
I'm sure Joffrey was just a misunderstood kid, too, who was burdened with way too many responsibilities at a young age, and groomed by his evil mother to be a tyrant. He practically had no choice in what he did, and was secretly one of the good guys. Probably.
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On April 14 2013 21:28 Doublemint wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2013 20:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 14:59 AstroPegnuin wrote:
tbh Sansa has always been my 2cnd favorite character and thus my favorite stark simply because I feel like she's one of the few characters that is genuinely not a terrible human being looking to use others for their own personal gain, I've always felt that having her Direwolf Lady killed off so early is going to play significance in her outcome meaning she will probably be the only Stark to end up alive at the end. I mean imo if anyone is Neds true successor it is her as she has much of the same integrity and honor that Ned yielded, if you notice in GoT almost all of Neds chapters are followed directly by Sansa chapters which is by no means unintentional imo.
Personally I feel like Sansa, Sandor and Jaime are the only ones in this whole series who aren't full of bs at this point, even the seemingly good people possess such huge increments of circlejerking. I think the whole point of "A song of ice and fire" isn't necessarily subject to one specific thing such J=R+L but more so just a reoccurring theme being good and evil exist in everyone which provide a median posing the question that if someone is not truthfully and fully good do they fall in the evil category meaning there is no inbetween or is there a between. This theme is presented so often in characters such as Jaime, Theon, Varys, Tyrion, etc (list can go on forever) Sansa is amazingly awesome. She probably goes through the worst that any other Stark does, quite literally being surrounded by the enemy at every single turn; and somehow she always comes out on top. Now, the cynic could chalk it all up to the people around her, but I think that's ignoring something very important: Even "good" people who screw with Sansa, end up regretting it. Bad people who screw with Sansa? Straight up doomed. Short list if we will: Butcher boy ruins her walk: He is run down by the Hound.
Arya ruins her dress: Arya watches her own father die, watches a lot of friends die, is chased throughout all of Westoros, becomes a murderer, and falls in with a very bad crowd.
Ned kills Lady: Joffrey kills Ned.
Commoners try to hurt Sansa: Hound gets medieval on their asses.
Joffrey ruins Sansa's life: Joffrey gets poisoned at his own wedding.
Tyrion marries Sansa despite her obvious disgust: Tyrion is falsely accused of murder, exiled, sold into slavery.
Tyrell's betray Sansa: Loris get's burned to shit.
Dontos betrays Sansa: Dontos gets betrayed and shot full of arrows.
Cersei treats Sansa like crap: Father is killed, son is killed, daughter is maimed, walk of shame, brother hates her, everyone hates her.
Cat's Sister tries to kill her: Get's thrown off a fucking mountain. Literally.
She is a walking doom trap. I pale to think about what is in store for Littlefinger for fucking with her. I fully expect the Hound to get a few pipe hitting n*ggers with a blowtorch and pair of pliers to go to town on his ass. Or, God help Littlefinger, John Snow get's word of what's going down. I know him and Sansa have their issues, but I still get the feeling that he would turn on the Targaryan Fire if he got wind of half of what's happened to her. It's one thing for your sister to be a raging bitch to you; but when some weird middle-aged dude kidnaps her and forces her to call him daddy while clearly trying to seduce her... all that bitchiness will probably be entirely forgotten in the righteous fucking fury of an older brother. Now John is a hard-ass and won't abandon the Wall for anything... but that doesn't mean shit can't get real if he's taken from the Wall On a serious note, she is also a very sympathetic character if you really read her storylines closely, and try to look at things from her point of view. Even when she is being a "bitch" to Arya in the beginning, there is some justification as Arya is also kind of being a brat, and even when she goes over the line, there is a reasonable explanation. Her reactions are extremely realistic in my opinion, for a teenage noble girl raised in a relatively safe environment. People get on her for not resisting enough, or whatever, but if you look at it: she's entirely powerless, and is in the control of her worst enemies, literally, and she goes through horrendous mental/physical torture. But she somehow keeps hope and even holds on to some of her innocence. I really like the way he makes her knight in shining armor the fucking Hound too, a genius play on the classic knight/princess storyline. I have a feeling that Sansa will be the Lady of Winterfell by the time the books end, married to a bad-ass, and trailed by the fucking Hound just in case anyone gets out of line. That is, of course, if he doesn't just end up killing the shit out of everyone. Haha, well... No. At this point you are dangerously close to saying: "Oh boy this Aerys II. - what a badass. Gets overthrown by a rebellion led by Robert and Ned, the Lannisters and the Tullys - wow look at him going all Targaryen on their asses from the other side, you don't fuck with Aerys II. because look what has happened to them after all!" Your post ares indeed funny but it's getting rather stale as it's always the same pattern... and a skewed view I might add.
Well if you focus only on the facetiousness, you'll miss the overall point. Which is that common interpretations of characters in the series tend to be completely decided by what is said about them by other characters, rather than what is done by them or accomplished by them. And I actually do think that GRRM is doing that on purpose, to some degree; tricking you into looking at things one way without any evidence, or sometimes with evidence to the contrary, and all the while the story goes another way without you realizing it because you're too focused on what's being given you. It happens with the characters in the story too: often they think they've got it all figured out, only they don't because they're just eating up what someone is feeding them without checking to see who's doing the cooking.
I could discuss these more seriously, without all the exaggerations, but I feel like that would be dry. And then it turns into a criticism of the world view implied by the story, which is not really my intention. But seriously, you gotta look at things in this story with a bit of a skewed lens if you want to catch all the best parts. Did people figure out R+L=J (if it's true) by taking every word or thought spoken or... thought... by the characters as gospel truth? No! And GRRM himself has said that people take PoV characters on their word too often.
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On April 14 2013 21:42 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 21:28 Doublemint wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2013 20:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 14:59 AstroPegnuin wrote:
tbh Sansa has always been my 2cnd favorite character and thus my favorite stark simply because I feel like she's one of the few characters that is genuinely not a terrible human being looking to use others for their own personal gain, I've always felt that having her Direwolf Lady killed off so early is going to play significance in her outcome meaning she will probably be the only Stark to end up alive at the end. I mean imo if anyone is Neds true successor it is her as she has much of the same integrity and honor that Ned yielded, if you notice in GoT almost all of Neds chapters are followed directly by Sansa chapters which is by no means unintentional imo.
Personally I feel like Sansa, Sandor and Jaime are the only ones in this whole series who aren't full of bs at this point, even the seemingly good people possess such huge increments of circlejerking. I think the whole point of "A song of ice and fire" isn't necessarily subject to one specific thing such J=R+L but more so just a reoccurring theme being good and evil exist in everyone which provide a median posing the question that if someone is not truthfully and fully good do they fall in the evil category meaning there is no inbetween or is there a between. This theme is presented so often in characters such as Jaime, Theon, Varys, Tyrion, etc (list can go on forever) Sansa is amazingly awesome. She probably goes through the worst that any other Stark does, quite literally being surrounded by the enemy at every single turn; and somehow she always comes out on top. Now, the cynic could chalk it all up to the people around her, but I think that's ignoring something very important: Even "good" people who screw with Sansa, end up regretting it. Bad people who screw with Sansa? Straight up doomed. Short list if we will: Butcher boy ruins her walk: He is run down by the Hound.
Arya ruins her dress: Arya watches her own father die, watches a lot of friends die, is chased throughout all of Westoros, becomes a murderer, and falls in with a very bad crowd.
Ned kills Lady: Joffrey kills Ned.
Commoners try to hurt Sansa: Hound gets medieval on their asses.
Joffrey ruins Sansa's life: Joffrey gets poisoned at his own wedding.
Tyrion marries Sansa despite her obvious disgust: Tyrion is falsely accused of murder, exiled, sold into slavery.
Tyrell's betray Sansa: Loris get's burned to shit.
Dontos betrays Sansa: Dontos gets betrayed and shot full of arrows.
Cersei treats Sansa like crap: Father is killed, son is killed, daughter is maimed, walk of shame, brother hates her, everyone hates her.
Cat's Sister tries to kill her: Get's thrown off a fucking mountain. Literally.
She is a walking doom trap. I pale to think about what is in store for Littlefinger for fucking with her. I fully expect the Hound to get a few pipe hitting n*ggers with a blowtorch and pair of pliers to go to town on his ass. Or, God help Littlefinger, John Snow get's word of what's going down. I know him and Sansa have their issues, but I still get the feeling that he would turn on the Targaryan Fire if he got wind of half of what's happened to her. It's one thing for your sister to be a raging bitch to you; but when some weird middle-aged dude kidnaps her and forces her to call him daddy while clearly trying to seduce her... all that bitchiness will probably be entirely forgotten in the righteous fucking fury of an older brother. Now John is a hard-ass and won't abandon the Wall for anything... but that doesn't mean shit can't get real if he's taken from the Wall On a serious note, she is also a very sympathetic character if you really read her storylines closely, and try to look at things from her point of view. Even when she is being a "bitch" to Arya in the beginning, there is some justification as Arya is also kind of being a brat, and even when she goes over the line, there is a reasonable explanation. Her reactions are extremely realistic in my opinion, for a teenage noble girl raised in a relatively safe environment. People get on her for not resisting enough, or whatever, but if you look at it: she's entirely powerless, and is in the control of her worst enemies, literally, and she goes through horrendous mental/physical torture. But she somehow keeps hope and even holds on to some of her innocence. I really like the way he makes her knight in shining armor the fucking Hound too, a genius play on the classic knight/princess storyline. I have a feeling that Sansa will be the Lady of Winterfell by the time the books end, married to a bad-ass, and trailed by the fucking Hound just in case anyone gets out of line. That is, of course, if he doesn't just end up killing the shit out of everyone. Haha, well... No. At this point you are dangerously close to saying: "Oh boy this Aerys II. - what a badass. Gets overthrown by a rebellion led by Robert and Ned, the Lannisters and the Tullys - wow look at him going all Targaryen on their asses from the other side, you don't fuck with Aerys II. because look what has happened to them after all!" Your post ares indeed funny but it's getting rather stale as it's always the same pattern... and a skewed view I might add. Well if you focus only on the facetiousness, you'll miss the overall point. Which is that common interpretations of characters in the series tend to be completely decided by what is said about them by other characters, rather than what is done by them or accomplished by them. And I actually do think that GRRM is doing that on purpose, to some degree; tricking you into looking at things one way without any evidence, or sometimes with evidence to the contrary, and all the while the story goes another way without you realizing it because you're too focused on what's being given you. It happens with the characters in the story too: often they think they've got it all figured out, only they don't because they're just eating up what someone is feeding them without checking to see who's doing the cooking. I could discuss these more seriously, without all the exaggerations, but I feel like that would be dry. And then it turns into a criticism of the world view implied by the story, which is not really my intention. But seriously, you gotta look at things in this story with a bit of a skewed lens if you want to catch all the best parts. Did people figure out R+L=J (if it's true) by taking every word or thought spoken or... thought... by the characters as gospel truth? No! And GRRM himself has said that people take PoV characters on their word too often.
Well I agree that one of the, if not THE, most entertaining part of reading this series is to dig deeper and make up your own mind what might happen to this character or with that noble house. And not the part of being right.
And you make a good point of GRRM tricking you into preconceived notions you get early on of some characters - Jaime being the prime example. Nevertheless I am very much a fan of distinguishing between what is pretty much settled or "safe" to assume because it actually is written in the book and therefore we have it "on paper" if you will - and what is one step beyond that, interpreting and theorizing about it. As you see I even put interpreting in the second category, since a good example of that would be your view of the Starks and my own, which are very different on some major points - even though we read the same book(s)^^
<3 GRRM is all I am saying
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In episode 3 when Ramsey saved Theon, did you notice how the Bolton man he killed called him a Bastard? A very subtle hint as to who he really is, but I doubt anyone will pick up on it if they have not read the books.
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Mereenese knot. It's like they wanted to get back at everyone whining about the sexposition. I snickered at that reference.
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that was the best episode of the season so far
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yeah That reference and the harpy also lets us know they they are going to merge all the slavers bay stories into Astapor (no yunaki or mereen).
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On April 15 2013 11:05 Xivsa wrote:
Mereenese knot. It's like they wanted to get back at everyone whining about the sexposition. I snickered at that reference.
That scene wasn't even sexposition it was just sex and casual conversation. I was kinda put off by it, but the part about Pod being the biggest P I M P in Westeros made up for it.
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On April 15 2013 11:12 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 11:05 Xivsa wrote:
Mereenese knot. It's like they wanted to get back at everyone whining about the sexposition. I snickered at that reference. That scene wasn't even sexposition it was just sex and casual conversation. I was kinda put off by it, but the part about Pod being the biggest P I M P in Westeros made up for it.
The fact that it had no sexposition is the point..
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That scene between Eamon and Robb.... Heh heh So soon isn't it.
Really well done though. Explains the difference between Eamon and Robb.
BLackfish. Perfect.
Daenarys.. awesome.
Meereense knot? Fantastic. Oh god Pod fantastic.
edit: I mean Edmure. Don't know where I got eamon.
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It's amazing that I find myself rooting for Theon to get away after all the shit he pulled.
A gem from the TV thread...that poor fellow has a rough couple of seasons ahead of him.
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On April 15 2013 12:19 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +It's amazing that I find myself rooting for Theon to get away after all the shit he pulled. A gem from the TV thread...that poor fellow has a rough couple of seasons ahead of him.
He has no idea, listening to my non reader friends thoughts on where things are headed si probably one of my favorite parts of this series.
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On April 15 2013 12:13 Sabu113 wrote:
That scene between Eamon and Robb.... Heh heh So soon isn't it.
Really well done though. Explains the difference between Eamon and Robb.
BLackfish. Perfect.
Do you mean Edmure?
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So many changes from the book, so confused about what they're gonna do...
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On April 15 2013 11:12 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 11:05 Xivsa wrote:
Mereenese knot. It's like they wanted to get back at everyone whining about the sexposition. I snickered at that reference. That scene wasn't even sexposition it was just sex and casual conversation. I was kinda put off by it, but the part about Pod being the biggest P I M P in Westeros made up for it.
I also really didn't understand the whole Pod thing. I mean it's sort of irrelevant how good he's in bed, whores will take the dough...
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On April 15 2013 11:06 hzflank wrote:yeah That reference and the harpy also lets us know they they are going to merge all the slavers bay stories into Astapor (no yunaki or mereen).
What? I don't see what leads you to think that. Isn't a harpy the symbol of astapor? I can imagine them cutting out yunkai I suppose, but I don't think it would work well if they merged mereen and astapor.
I'm glad they finally fucking introduced the Tully's. But I don't like how we are first introduced to Edmure. Sure, he accidentally fucks some stuff up, but being introduced to him in that way... idk, it feels shitty
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Hahahaha Meerenese knot was the best meta joke yet!
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On April 15 2013 12:25 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 12:19 ZasZ. wrote:It's amazing that I find myself rooting for Theon to get away after all the shit he pulled. A gem from the TV thread...that poor fellow has a rough couple of seasons ahead of him. He has no idea, listening to my non reader friends thoughts on where things are headed si probably one of my favorite parts of this series.
haha this is so true. Can't wait for the thread to burn come the Red Wedding 
I kept wondering why they deviated from the book on introducing Ramsay, but after seeing the direction they're taking this...I actually like the show version so far much more than the book. It's a great introduction to the character's cruelty and a neat twist.
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on another note I feel they absolutely nailed the Blackfish, completely as I envisioned from reading the books
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On April 15 2013 12:53 itkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 11:06 hzflank wrote:yeah That reference and the harpy also lets us know they they are going to merge all the slavers bay stories into Astapor (no yunaki or mereen). What? I don't see what leads you to think that. Isn't a harpy the symbol of astapor? I can imagine them cutting out yunkai I suppose, but I don't think it would work well if they merged mereen and astapor. I'm glad they finally fucking introduced the Tully's. But I don't like how we are first introduced to Edmure. Sure, he accidentally fucks some stuff up, but being introduced to him in that way... idk, it feels shitty
Edmure is supposed to come off as this brash but well meaning guy. Personally, I liked all the Tully scenes this week - especially on the dock.
Ramsay is a mastermind all the sudden. That caught me completely unawares.
The Meereenese knot reference was a nice little wink to book readers, hahaha. I'm also fine with taking out Vargo Hoat - we saw that coming ahead of time.
Melisandre's change is quite interesting admittedly. It doesn't seem like it will just be a small deviation from the books. I wonder where they're taking this. Thoughts guys?
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Also, after this latest episode, I have decided I think Dany is neither well acted nor well scripted.
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EPT
