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[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 256
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 14 2013 00:38 Conti wrote: You, Sir, express your opinion in a way too subtle manner. I almost didn't realize that you don't like the Starks. I like Sansa  | ||
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hns
Germany609 Posts
On April 13 2013 23:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On April 13 2013 22:12 Doublemint wrote: LOL I guess what we have here is a rather frustrated, former Stark fan. Though there are some things really wrong you are claiming here... how are the Starks inbred? How was getting rid of the Mad King - all things considered - not a good thing? It is also very debatable they are the Morons you claim they are. Naivety and too much wishful thinking/trusting the wrong people are sort of the only things they can be blamed of. In a treacherous world and environment they are out of place with their old school approach of honor - and bound to lose the game because of it. //edit: Catelyn, in her grief for Bran and what might happen to Ned however does stupid things I agree. Naivete so vast in the face of overwhelming evidence that it goes even beyond criminal negligence. It's not even a question of what they did wrong, it's a question of which one of their schemes, plays, moves, or actions in any way turned out to be correct, beneficial, or anything but harmful. They are like the reverse Midas of the GoT world, everything they touch turns to pure shit. Getting rid of the Mad King is all well and good (though I find it hilarious that they all fucking hate the guy who did it), but everything else about that rebellion was fucked from the start and Ned was right in the middle of that shit. Hmmm... maybe telling Robert and everyone else in his dumbass family that his sister actually loves Rhaegar would have been a good start... Your posts are very amusing and refreshing, but that's where I really lost it. Otherwise, you are obviously correct to some extend, the Starks really got run over by the other families of power. However, I personally took their downfall as the one lesson that there simply cannot be any kind of "white-knight" (or white-knight family) in ASoIaF. Ned is probably the one guy that comes close to being a true white knight, and you described pretty well where it got him. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
Most egregious example: On April 14 2013 00:28 sc2superfan101 wrote: Now, good ol' Ned was young, so I can't blame him too much for not thinking: "Hey, maybe I should tell my brother NOT to go tell the Mad King he's gonna kill his beloved son. In fact, while I'm at it, maybe I should tell everyone that Lyanna probably just eloped because she doesn't want to sleep next to the walking STD that is Robert Baratheon every night for the rest of her life." I won't blame him too much, and I guess hindsight is always 20/20... but still, seems like it would have been a discussion worth having, no? Probably wouldn't have worked anyway, since it seems his dad and brother were itching to die, so I guess I'll let him off the hook for that. R+L=J is almost certainly true, but where is it stated that Eddard knew that Lyanna married/loved Rheagar before he entered the Tower of Joy? Where on earth is it hinted that Eddard was even in the vicinity of Brandon Stark before he entered King's Landing...or that he knew Brandon would fly off the handle? I mean, really, projection much? Or this: On April 13 2013 21:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: Their one and only saving grace is that they happened to raise John Snow and Sansa. The only two children connected with that inbred house that didn't either die, become a psychopath, get surrounded by cannibals, or become crippled, become a psychopath, and become a cannibal all in one; or get raped and tortured by Reek. Oh except John Snow had to: kill his mentor, kill his girlfriend, send his only friend away, and has been stabbed four times. And Sansa has been beaten, mentally tortured, engaged to a psychopath, married to a psychopath, threatened with rape, assaulted by her aunt, almost murdered by her aunt, and now is in the clutches of a guy named Littlefinger... Yes, because it's all Eddard and Cat's fault that Jaime Lannister tossed Bran out a window, Tywin planned the only universal war crime in Westeros, and Theon had daddy issues ><. At this point, might as well blame the Starks for the Others. On April 14 2013 04:43 hns wrote: Your posts are very amusing and refreshing, but that's where I really lost it. Otherwise, you are obviously correct to some extend, the Starks really got run over by the other families of power. However, I personally took their downfall as the one lesson that there simply cannot be any kind of "white-knight" (or white-knight family) in ASoIaF. Ned is probably the one guy that comes close to being a true white knight, and you described pretty well where it got him. The relationship between the ends and the means is...complicated...in ASOIAF. From some other poster on the Internet, killing the Starks is easy, but it's an excellent way to put a giant targeting laser on your back, and your family. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On April 14 2013 05:37 acker wrote: At this point, might as well blame the Starks for the Others. Well, if Brandon the Builder would have built a better, more awesome wall, people wouldn't have to be worried about the Others invading now, would they? | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On April 14 2013 06:00 Conti wrote: Well, if Brandon the Builder would have built a better, more awesome wall, people wouldn't have to be worried about the Others invading now, would they? Should have built a dragon cannon into each gate. That'd learn em. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
On April 14 2013 06:00 Conti wrote: Well, if Brandon the Builder would have built a better, more awesome wall, people wouldn't have to be worried about the Others invading now, would they? He probably was going to make it even bigger, but he felt sorry for the men working so he stopped it where he did. Fucking nice guys are disgusting. But I think the point of making the Starks so ... 'bad', if you will, is because GRRM has always said that he wants it to be realistic to human kind and not to focus primarily on the fantasy. Actions have consequences, pretty much. Look at Cersei, she's an idiot who is almost single handedly (cuz she dont like Kevan as her hand, lolz) ruining the Lannister name. I dont know, I think I might be too pro-GRRM 'cause it feels like the characters are all perfect. The stuff I dont like about the books isn't ever related to how characters act or their motivations, really. So take my post with a grain of salt (and bread). Meh FWIW, the title of the 7th book was originally going to be "A Time for Wolves", so I think the Starks are gonna have their revenge in some way. So maybe he wanted to make them a little extra-dumb. DAE realize that their motto is "Winter is coming"? *sarcasm* | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 14 2013 05:37 acker wrote: R+L=J is almost certainly true, but where is it stated that Eddard knew that Lyanna married/loved Rheagar before he entered the Tower of Joy? Where on earth is it hinted that Eddard was even in the vicinity of Brandon Stark before he entered King's Landing...or that he knew Brandon would fly off the handle? I mean, really, projection much? Do you not remember the story of the Wolf Pups from those weird swamp kids? Do you not remember multiple flashbacks of Lyanna explaining quite clearly that she doesn't love Robert to Ned? I mean, I don't have a sister, but if I did, and some handsome, universally loved, Prince crowned her the queen of beauty over his wife; and she was about to be forced into a marriage she clearly doesn't want, and she shows great interest in the young, striking Prince when he crowns her... and then they both disappear... I don't know about you, but my first thought wouldn't be: "OMGZ She must have been kidnapped!" My first thought would be: "Oh... well that's not surprising in the least." Like I said, maybe we can give him a pass on the whole Brandon and what's-his-dad's-name Stark being literally the dumbest human beings to ever walk the Westerosian lands. Though it does give us some indication that perhaps, since his brother and father both seem to be a few stones short of a castle, maybe this is an inherited trait. Explains quite a bit about Ned's extremely questionable judgement calls if you ask me. Yes, because it's all Eddard and Cat's fault that Jaime Lannister tossed Bran out a window, Tywin planned the only universal war crime in Westeros, and Theon had daddy issues ><. At this point, might as well blame the Starks for the Others. I wouldn't put it past them, personally. Now of course not everything that happens is directly their fault... but I do notice that I still haven't been given a single example of them doing something that doesn't result in death/torture/mayhem for themselves and everyone they love. Seriously though, I would not be surprised in the least if something Ned or Cat did had something to do with the Others. They literally are that unfortunate. Be it by design or because whatever evil demon masquerading as a god rules Westoros, you cannot deny that Ned and Cat Stark are easily the most unfortunate people that have ever lived. Can someone please tell me ONE thing that they did that results in some tangible good for themselves and others; and doesn't end up screwing everyone in the end? On a side note: Sansa Stark? Now she is one mother-fucking crazy witch or something. Literally every single person who fucks with her ends up completely screwed over. The title of the last book should be: "Shouldn't have fucked with Sansa." | ||
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MajuGarzett
Canada635 Posts
On April 14 2013 11:39 sc2superfan101 wrote: Can someone please tell me ONE thing that they did that results in some tangible good for themselves and others; and doesn't end up screwing everyone in the end? Ned sending Beric out to catch the Mountain led to the formation of the Brotherhood Without Banners which was good for the common people I guess. Beric ended up reviving Cat as well so it was good for her in a way though all she does now is seek revenge. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Ned and Catelyn look dumber because people like Varys and Littlefinger were against them. Those two wanted the biggest fuck-ups on the Iron Throne and at least to Ned's credit, that wasn't him. Kevan Lannister was the only Lannister in power who wasn't a bloodthirsty tyrant and it didn't end well for him either. He was actually a pretty effective ruler until Varys killed him. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On April 14 2013 11:39 sc2superfan101 wrote: Do you not remember the story of the Wolf Pups from those weird swamp kids? Do you not remember multiple flashbacks of Lyanna explaining quite clearly that she doesn't love Robert to Ned? I mean, I don't have a sister, but if I did, and some handsome, universally loved, Prince crowned her the queen of beauty over his wife; and she was about to be forced into a marriage she clearly doesn't want, and she shows great interest in the young, striking Prince when he crowns her... and then they both disappear... I don't know about you, but my first thought wouldn't be: "OMGZ She must have been kidnapped!" My first thought would be: "Oh... well that's not surprising in the least." There is exactly one flashback where Lyanna is present concerning Robert, far as I can tell. There is no passage where she is anywhere close to "explaining quite clearly that she doesn't love Robert to Ned". All she says is that Robert cannot keep to one bed. The Knight of the Laughing Tree's identity is as of yet unknown, and there is debate on his/her identity even in the ASOIAF forums. The KOTLT makes no moves in the story that could represent love to Rheagar. But let's leave the facts aside. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Lyanna had clearly stated that she'd not marry Robert. Even in a situation like that, a "disappearance" by the ruling family without so much as the briefest explanation would more often than not be a sign of rape or murder in Westeros, not True Love. On April 14 2013 11:39 sc2superfan101 wrote: I wouldn't put it past them, personally. Now of course not everything that happens is directly their fault... but I do notice that I still haven't been given a single example of them doing something that doesn't result in death/torture/mayhem for themselves and everyone they love. The rest of your post is shortened here. Considering that the story up to now is only slightly after the zenith of the side against the Starks, it's not surprising that this is true. Turns out that the side that breaks more laws and morals tends to "win", all other things equal...just like in real life. And the losers generally suffer quite poorly in Westeros. But there's evidence that the Starks did plenty of good before the game of thrones (uncapitalized). Most significantly, a ridiculous number of families with no blood kin to the Starks hold undying loyalty towards the Stark family, and help lead a shadow rebellion against their best interests; it's very difficult to imagine this holding true with, say, the Lannisters or Freys. The only rebellion the Starks suffered in recent memory involves the Greyjoys, who are Viking douchebags. The Starks are also being set up nicely for the last two books as well. Jon Snow will certainly be pivotable in the defense against The Others. Rickon may rally the north. Bran is well on the way to becoming a physical god, for heaven's sake. No one knows what Sansa and Arya will do, but it almost certainly involves being awesome. Theon has been forced to recognize that he is a Stark fanboy, and will probably nullify the Kingsmoot and force action from Euron..though I don't see Theon living into the last book. Eddard's influence just might end up saving the entirety of Westeros from a zombie apocalypse and a bunch of Vikings armed with medieval WMDs. On the other hand, I have a hard time seeing an end-of-series solution that ends up with Team Lannister/Frey/Bolton happy and well. "Fuck the means" is an excellent way of getting short-term gains, but there's recent implications that the mentality and steps required to do this lead to long-term losses...plus Varys is going to make life hell for the current rulers on the Iron Throne. Most notably, I'd be very surprised to see House Frey standing after The Winds of Winter. | ||
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BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
On April 14 2013 00:28 sc2superfan101 wrote: ... I guess my only point is that there's this whole idea that the Stark's are just too trusting, or too noble, or too unlucky... but GRRM always says that we can't trust a POV of the characters. I just can't help but wonder. Is there a point where trusting becomes so unbelievably stupid that it's literally impossible for anyone with half a brain to have thought that it was wise? Well, if you analyze the Starks objectively, particularly Ned and Cat, I think what your saying does make a lot of sense. My own interpretation of these characters was that they weren't so much more different than the Lannisters. There is a parallel between Cersei and Cat: they both blindly and foolishly act upon maternal feelings with no regard to how their positions and decisions affect others and they both set the path toward ruin for their families. Overlooking the incestuous relationship between J&C, I actually like Jaime and Tyrion, and Tywinn as well to some degree (despite being extremely cold and cruel he is respectable and extremely competent). Ned is just so incredibly stupid that he cannot even think or analyze the meaning of honor, and although his stalwart dedication to his creed is endearing to many people I cannot help but think less of him because of his refusal to look beyond his own honor (excluding few rare occasions). However, the cake for dumbest dumb dumbs is shared between Cat and Cersei, between them they managed to ruin kindoms and perhaps made the lives of the common folk as bad or worse than it was during the Mad King's reign. I don't understand how someone could read the books and conclude that there is a good side and bad side when it comes to the feuding families. Everyone in their own mind lives in a reality where they are they good guy and I think your portion of the post I quoted really emphasizes this. People generally become favorably biased towards characters that have a POV and more so towards the Starks since they were originally the more central characters, something which is no longer true | ||
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AstroPegnuin
293 Posts
Personally I feel like Sansa, Sandor and Jaime are the only ones in this whole series who aren't full of bs at this point, even the seemingly good people possess such huge increments of circlejerking. I think the whole point of "A song of ice and fire" isn't necessarily subject to one specific thing such J=R+L but more so just a reoccurring theme being good and evil exist in everyone which provide a median posing the question that if someone is not truthfully and fully good do they fall in the evil category meaning there is no inbetween or is there a between. This theme is presented so often in characters such as Jaime, Theon, Varys, Tyrion, etc (list can go on forever) | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
So far things that the books allude to , it is shown in the show. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On April 14 2013 20:03 -Archangel- wrote: So what do you think, will they show us Jojen get killed in the show? So far things that the books allude to , it is shown in the show. Assuming that's what really happened in the books, yes. They'll just not get away with anything else in the show. You can't just stop showing a character in the show at some point and never explain what happened to him. You can do that in the books, however. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 14 2013 14:59 AstroPegnuin wrote: tbh Sansa has always been my 2cnd favorite character and thus my favorite stark simply because I feel like she's one of the few characters that is genuinely not a terrible human being looking to use others for their own personal gain, I've always felt that having her Direwolf Lady killed off so early is going to play significance in her outcome meaning she will probably be the only Stark to end up alive at the end. I mean imo if anyone is Neds true successor it is her as she has much of the same integrity and honor that Ned yielded, if you notice in GoT almost all of Neds chapters are followed directly by Sansa chapters which is by no means unintentional imo. Personally I feel like Sansa, Sandor and Jaime are the only ones in this whole series who aren't full of bs at this point, even the seemingly good people possess such huge increments of circlejerking. I think the whole point of "A song of ice and fire" isn't necessarily subject to one specific thing such J=R+L but more so just a reoccurring theme being good and evil exist in everyone which provide a median posing the question that if someone is not truthfully and fully good do they fall in the evil category meaning there is no inbetween or is there a between. This theme is presented so often in characters such as Jaime, Theon, Varys, Tyrion, etc (list can go on forever) Sansa is amazingly awesome. She probably goes through the worst that any other Stark does, quite literally being surrounded by the enemy at every single turn; and somehow she always comes out on top. Now, the cynic could chalk it all up to the people around her, but I think that's ignoring something very important: Even "good" people who screw with Sansa, end up regretting it. Bad people who screw with Sansa? Straight up doomed. Short list if we will: Butcher boy ruins her walk: He is run down by the Hound. Arya ruins her dress: Arya watches her own father die, watches a lot of friends die, is chased throughout all of Westoros, becomes a murderer, and falls in with a very bad crowd. Ned kills Lady: Joffrey kills Ned. Commoners try to hurt Sansa: Hound gets medieval on their asses. Joffrey ruins Sansa's life: Joffrey gets poisoned at his own wedding. Tyrion marries Sansa despite her obvious disgust: Tyrion is falsely accused of murder, exiled, sold into slavery. Tyrell's betray Sansa: Loris get's burned to shit. Dontos betrays Sansa: Dontos gets betrayed and shot full of arrows. Cersei treats Sansa like crap: Father is killed, son is killed, daughter is maimed, walk of shame, brother hates her, everyone hates her. Cat's Sister tries to kill her: Get's thrown off a fucking mountain. Literally. She is a walking doom trap. I pale to think about what is in store for Littlefinger for fucking with her. I fully expect the Hound to get a few pipe hitting n*ggers with a blowtorch and pair of pliers to go to town on his ass. Or, God help Littlefinger, John Snow get's word of what's going down. I know him and Sansa have their issues, but I still get the feeling that he would turn on the Targaryan Fire if he got wind of half of what's happened to her. It's one thing for your sister to be a raging bitch to you; but when some weird middle-aged dude kidnaps her and forces her to call him daddy while clearly trying to seduce her... all that bitchiness will probably be entirely forgotten in the righteous fucking fury of an older brother. Now John is a hard-ass and won't abandon the Wall for anything... but that doesn't mean shit can't get real if he's taken from the Wall On a serious note, she is also a very sympathetic character if you really read her storylines closely, and try to look at things from her point of view. Even when she is being a "bitch" to Arya in the beginning, there is some justification as Arya is also kind of being a brat, and even when she goes over the line, there is a reasonable explanation. Her reactions are extremely realistic in my opinion, for a teenage noble girl raised in a relatively safe environment. People get on her for not resisting enough, or whatever, but if you look at it: she's entirely powerless, and is in the control of her worst enemies, literally, and she goes through horrendous mental/physical torture. But she somehow keeps hope and even holds on to some of her innocence. I really like the way he makes her knight in shining armor the fucking Hound too, a genius play on the classic knight/princess storyline. I have a feeling that Sansa will be the Lady of Winterfell by the time the books end, married to a bad-ass, and trailed by the fucking Hound just in case anyone gets out of line. That is, of course, if he doesn't just end up killing the shit out of everyone. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 14 2013 21:05 Conti wrote: Are you trying to deliver the most over the top, silliest, most one-sided interpretations of everything? Because if you are, you're doing a really, really good job. It's getting a bit old by now, though. No, I just look at things differently. I tend to take an author's word less in the context of the story. While I'm being a little facetious with the whole Ned/Cat thing, I really do hate those characters with a passion. And I really do think it's not unintentional that people who fuck with Sansa end up dead or worse. And I really do think that Sansa is the best character in the series. I like really analyzing the story, even though I'm not the biggest fan of it ever. It's very interesting to think about the ins-and-outs, but people tend to take a very one-sided view of it. They hear from a bunch of characters, good and bad, that Ned is honorable and awesome, so they think he's honorable and awesome. They see Sansa being mean to Arya from Arya's POV so they think Sansa is just stupid and mean. I try to take a longer view of things. Cat isn't smart just because she and other characters say that she is. Ned isn't honorable just because he and other characters say he is. And Sansa isn't a bitch (or too much of one) just because other characters say she is. It's like that with Tyrion too. I think Tyrion is very interesting; but ultimately a terrible person who honestly should die. Tragic sure, but can still be a very cruel, and show a great lack of empathy in some cases. He's a fan favorite, but I tend to like other characters much more, and can't help rooting against Tyrion a bit. It's not against the rules to take a different PoV about the series, is it? And while I exaggerate a bit, 90% of what I'm saying is serious, and supported by context within the book. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
On April 14 2013 20:59 sc2superfan101 wrote: Sansa is amazingly awesome. She probably goes through the worst that any other Stark does, quite literally being surrounded by the enemy at every single turn; and somehow she always comes out on top. Now, the cynic could chalk it all up to the people around her, but I think that's ignoring something very important: Even "good" people who screw with Sansa, end up regretting it. Bad people who screw with Sansa? Straight up doomed. Short list if we will: Butcher boy ruins her walk: He is run down by the Hound. Arya ruins her dress: Arya watches her own father die, watches a lot of friends die, is chased throughout all of Westoros, becomes a murderer, and falls in with a very bad crowd. Ned kills Lady: Joffrey kills Ned. Commoners try to hurt Sansa: Hound gets medieval on their asses. Joffrey ruins Sansa's life: Joffrey gets poisoned at his own wedding. Tyrion marries Sansa despite her obvious disgust: Tyrion is falsely accused of murder, exiled, sold into slavery. Tyrell's betray Sansa: Loris get's burned to shit. Dontos betrays Sansa: Dontos gets betrayed and shot full of arrows. Cersei treats Sansa like crap: Father is killed, son is killed, daughter is maimed, walk of shame, brother hates her, everyone hates her. Cat's Sister tries to kill her: Get's thrown off a fucking mountain. Literally. She is a walking doom trap. I pale to think about what is in store for Littlefinger for fucking with her. I fully expect the Hound to get a few pipe hitting n*ggers with a blowtorch and pair of pliers to go to town on his ass. Or, God help Littlefinger, John Snow get's word of what's going down. I know him and Sansa have their issues, but I still get the feeling that he would turn on the Targaryan Fire if he got wind of half of what's happened to her. It's one thing for your sister to be a raging bitch to you; but when some weird middle-aged dude kidnaps her and forces her to call him daddy while clearly trying to seduce her... all that bitchiness will probably be entirely forgotten in the righteous fucking fury of an older brother. Now John is a hard-ass and won't abandon the Wall for anything... but that doesn't mean shit can't get real if he's taken from the Wall On a serious note, she is also a very sympathetic character if you really read her storylines closely, and try to look at things from her point of view. Even when she is being a "bitch" to Arya in the beginning, there is some justification as Arya is also kind of being a brat, and even when she goes over the line, there is a reasonable explanation. Her reactions are extremely realistic in my opinion, for a teenage noble girl raised in a relatively safe environment. People get on her for not resisting enough, or whatever, but if you look at it: she's entirely powerless, and is in the control of her worst enemies, literally, and she goes through horrendous mental/physical torture. But she somehow keeps hope and even holds on to some of her innocence. I really like the way he makes her knight in shining armor the fucking Hound too, a genius play on the classic knight/princess storyline. I have a feeling that Sansa will be the Lady of Winterfell by the time the books end, married to a bad-ass, and trailed by the fucking Hound just in case anyone gets out of line. That is, of course, if he doesn't just end up killing the shit out of everyone. Haha, well... No. At this point you are dangerously close to saying: "Oh boy these Targaryens - what badasses. Get overthrown by a rebellion led by Robert and Ned, the Lannisters and the Tullys - wow look at them going all Aerys II. on their asses , you don't fuck with Targaryens. because look what has happened to them after all!" Your post ares indeed funny but it's getting rather stale as it's always the same pattern... and a skewed view I might add. //edit: typo. | ||
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