EPTCatelyn is a very smart character, she suffers by trusting other people, the lannisters during the king's visit, the freys, robb as king, her sister with tyrion and not to mention a fair share of bad luck with renly. What they made of her in the show is very sad, the character no longer speaks out, is manipulated and can no longer think. Releasing Jaime made robb lose men, true, but his wedding had sealed his fate already.
[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 255
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
Catelyn is a very smart character, she suffers by trusting other people, the lannisters during the king's visit, the freys, robb as king, her sister with tyrion and not to mention a fair share of bad luck with renly. What they made of her in the show is very sad, the character no longer speaks out, is manipulated and can no longer think. Releasing Jaime made robb lose men, true, but his wedding had sealed his fate already. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
On April 13 2013 12:35 mmp wrote: Anyone else out there think Joffrey's going to get it in episode 10? I think they're building up Lady Olenna a lot from the beginning, so much that they couldn't offset Joffrey's demise to Season 4, Episode 1 without making Olenna look like a red herring. Her character disappears from the story immediately afterwards. They've also already written in Littlefinger's plot, minus Ser Dontos. I think that even though Dontos appeared in S2E01, he won't come back as the guy who saves her. I think they're going to use Ros as that person. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On April 13 2013 13:57 tshi wrote: I think that even though Dontos appeared in S2E01, he won't come back as the guy who saves her. I think they're going to use Ros as that person. I didn't even think about that. Good call. Or maybe she becomes Merillion at the Eyrie. Littlefinger: "Guards, this whore has murdered my wife!" Do you think Joffrey dies in 3x10 or 4x01? | ||
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AstroPegnuin
293 Posts
On April 13 2013 14:27 mmp wrote: I didn't even think about that. Good call. Or maybe she becomes Merillion at the Eyrie. Littlefinger: "Guards, this whore has murdered my wife!" Do you think Joffrey dies in 3x10 or 4x01? I've been told the last episode is the Red wedding meaning they will probably end the season with The Hound smacking Arya unconscious for a cliff hanger | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On April 13 2013 14:29 AstroPegnuin wrote: I've been told the last episode is the Red wedding meaning they will probably end the season with The Hound smacking Arya unconscious for a cliff hanger I think that's 3x09, titled "The Rains of Castamere"... If it's 3x09, we probably won't see Sandor and Arya in 3x10. I expect Jon defending the wall + Dany kicking ass will be the majority of 3x10, with Joffrey choking and ensuing chaos + Sansa escaping as the final scene. (Edit: the final final scene may be undead Cat.) | ||
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MajuGarzett
Canada635 Posts
On April 13 2013 13:15 Bigtony wrote: How on earth is Catelyn the cause of all the Starks' problems...? She's one of the best diplomatic minds and level headed people in the entire ASOIAF universe. The only reason it never works is because she's surrounded by retarded men. She doesn't really think about anything but her family. She's told that Tyrion tried to assassinate Bran so she kidnaps him and she frees Jaime for Sansa and Arya. She cares nothing for the big picture or what her actions might do past to her children. Really, her decision to free Jaime was based solely on emotion, it wasn't level headed at all. | ||
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hai2u
688 Posts
On April 13 2013 13:15 Bigtony wrote: How on earth is Catelyn the cause of all the Starks' problems...? She's one of the best diplomatic minds and level headed people in the entire ASOIAF universe. The only reason it never works is because she's surrounded by retarded men. Level headed? She arrested Tyrion without solid proof which caused the start of the war. And then being even dumber and completely selfish by release Jaime which weakened Robb's power and gained nothing in return. Even if the plan went accordingly it would have been a terrible trade as Jaime was worth much more than 2 daughters. | ||
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armada[sb]
United States432 Posts
On April 13 2013 14:34 mmp wrote: I think that's 3x09, titled "The Rains of Castamere"... If it's 3x09, we probably won't see Sandor and Arya in 3x10. I expect Jon defending the wall + Dany kicking ass will be the majority of 3x10, with Joffrey choking and ensuing chaos + Sansa escaping as the final scene. (Edit: the final final scene may be undead Cat.) I think UnCat would be a good way to open up next season. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
On April 13 2013 14:27 mmp wrote: I didn't even think about that. Good call. Or maybe she becomes Merillion at the Eyrie. Littlefinger: "Guards, this whore has murdered my wife!" Yeah, probably that too. I'm pretty sure she's definitely going to die in some way though. I can't wait for Tywin to hang Shae for being a whore and then Tyrion stabs him and says "For the Watch", and then steals Tywins dog helm. Im so sleepy. | ||
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OKMarius
Norway469 Posts
On April 13 2013 14:34 mmp wrote:I expect Jon defending the wall + Dany kicking ass will be the majority of 3x10, with Joffrey choking and ensuing chaos + Sansa escaping as the final scene. (Edit: the final final scene may be undead Cat.) I really doubt we'll see Joffrey's wedding in this season. They need to save some of the good stuff for season 4.  | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
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kleetzor
Germany360 Posts
On April 13 2013 18:29 OKMarius wrote: I really doubt we'll see Joffrey's wedding in this season. They need to save some of the good stuff for season 4. Still, having 10 episodes (all of season 3) of wedding preparations at King's Landing would seem a bit too much IMO. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 13 2013 13:21 Zozo wrote: I disagree with the view that Cat is what caused most of starks' suffering, Ned was waaaay worse. Most of the events had little or nothing to do with the members of the family, the way Theon acted after reaching the iron islands, bran's fall/assassination, lady's death, etc. Catelyn is a very smart character, she suffers by trusting other people, the lannisters during the king's visit, the freys, robb as king, her sister with tyrion and not to mention a fair share of bad luck with renly. What they made of her in the show is very sad, the character no longer speaks out, is manipulated and can no longer think. Releasing Jaime made robb lose men, true, but his wedding had sealed his fate already. Bullshit the Lannisters would have even thought about pulling something like that off if Jaime was within reach of the Starks. Cat and Ned are the causes of practically every fucking bad event in the entire series going all the way back to Robert's Rebellion. Seriously, almost every single fuck-up can be tied to one of these two morons in some way. Their one and only saving grace is that they happened to raise John Snow and Sansa. The only two children connected with that inbred house that didn't either die, become a psychopath, get surrounded by cannibals, or become crippled, become a psychopath, and become a cannibal all in one; or get raped and tortured by Reek. Oh except John Snow had to: kill his mentor, kill his girlfriend, send his only friend away, and has been stabbed four times. And Sansa has been beaten, mentally tortured, engaged to a psychopath, married to a psychopath, threatened with rape, assaulted by her aunt, almost murdered by her aunt, and now is in the clutches of a guy named Littlefinger... Yeah... Cat and Ned should be given the parents of the fucking year award. Shit, if Greyjoy, Tywin, and Roose Bolton all got married to each other and decided to adopt a bunch of kids, they would probably make better parents than Cat and Ned. I would give my kid to the goddamn White Walkers before I let either of those dolts near them. On April 13 2013 13:15 Bigtony wrote: How on earth is Catelyn the cause of all the Starks' problems...? She's one of the best diplomatic minds and level headed people in the entire ASOIAF universe. The only reason it never works is because she's surrounded by retarded men. LOL. Cat is the fucking Idra of aSoIaF. "My diplomatic moves were actually perfect, but then those retarded men who I was trying to outsmart didn't do what they should have done for my diplomacy to work. So actually, it's them who are dumb and not me." | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 10 2013 08:26 TheFish7 wrote: Where do whores go? I'm pretty sure that was Tywin's way of saying: "Who the fuck knows?" or "I fucking killed her (had her killed)." <- less likely, as he would have to be lying. but he did have a crossbow pointed at him while he was on the shitter, so that actually isn't out of the realm of possibility. It would be kind of lame to have her pop up anyway. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
On April 13 2013 21:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: Bullshit the Lannisters would have even thought about pulling something like that off if Jaime was within reach of the Starks. Cat and Ned are the causes of practically every fucking bad event in the entire series going all the way back to Robert's Rebellion. Seriously, almost every single fuck-up can be tied to one of these two morons in some way. Their one and only saving grace is that they happened to raise John Snow and Sansa. The only two children connected with that inbred house that didn't either die, become a psychopath, get surrounded by cannibals, or become crippled, become a psychopath, and become a cannibal all in one; or get raped and tortured by Reek. Oh except John Snow had to: kill his mentor, kill his girlfriend, send his only friend away, and has been stabbed four times. And Sansa has been beaten, mentally tortured, engaged to a psychopath, married to a psychopath, threatened with rape, assaulted by her aunt, almost murdered by her aunt, and now is in the clutches of a guy named Littlefinger... Yeah... Cat and Ned should be given the parents of the fucking year award. Shit, if Greyjoy, Tywin, and Roose Bolton all got married to each other and decided to adopt a bunch of kids, they would probably make better parents than Cat and Ned. I would give my kid to the goddamn White Walkers before I let either of those dolts near them. LOL I guess what we have here is a rather frustrated, former Stark fan. Though there are some things really wrong you are claiming here... how are the Starks inbred? How was getting rid of the Mad King - all things considered - not a good thing? It is also very debatable they are the Morons you claim they are. Naivety and too much wishful thinking/trusting the wrong people are sort of the only things they can be blamed of. In a treacherous world and environment they are out of place with their old school approach of honor - and bound to lose the game because of it. //edit: Catelyn, in her grief for Bran and what might happen to Ned however does stupid things I agree. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On April 13 2013 21:42 sc2superfan101 wrote: Bullshit the Lannisters would have even thought about pulling something like that off if Jaime was within reach of the Starks. Cat and Ned are the causes of practically every fucking bad event in the entire series going all the way back to Robert's Rebellion. Seriously, almost every single fuck-up can be tied to one of these two morons in some way. Their one and only saving grace is that they happened to raise John Snow and Sansa. The only two children connected with that inbred house that didn't either die, become a psychopath, get surrounded by cannibals, or become crippled, become a psychopath, and become a cannibal all in one; or get raped and tortured by Reek. Oh except John Snow had to: kill his mentor, kill his girlfriend, send his only friend away, and has been stabbed four times. And Sansa has been beaten, mentally tortured, engaged to a psychopath, married to a psychopath, threatened with rape, assaulted by her aunt, almost murdered by her aunt, and now is in the clutches of a guy named Littlefinger... Yeah... Cat and Ned should be given the parents of the fucking year award. Shit, if Greyjoy, Tywin, and Roose Bolton all got married to each other and decided to adopt a bunch of kids, they would probably make better parents than Cat and Ned. I would give my kid to the goddamn White Walkers before I let either of those dolts near them. LOL. Cat is the fucking Idra of aSoIaF. "My diplomatic moves were actually perfect, but then those retarded men who I was trying to outsmart didn't do what they should have done for my diplomacy to work. So actually, it's them who are dumb and not me." ned's only major fault as a leader was his lack of confidence and resolve in certain matters. he is asked at least once by a major character as to why he didn't take the throne for himself. the lannisters were a timebomb, and littlefinger was slowly chipping away at, well, everyone. robert was a useless drunkard who was letting his kingdom rot. he got bullied by his own council. he only wanted the strong and honorable ned to lead for him after his own hand died. like most real rebellions, robert's taking of the crown just resulted in a weak puppet being ruled by the rich and completely self-interested. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 13 2013 22:12 Doublemint wrote: LOL I guess what we have here is a rather frustrated, former Stark fan. Though there are some things really wrong you are claiming here... how are the Starks inbred? How was getting rid of the Mad King - all things considered - not a good thing? It is also very debatable they are the Morons you claim they are. Naivety and too much wishful thinking/trusting the wrong people are sort of the only things they can be blamed of. In a treacherous world and environment they are out of place with their old school approach of honor - and bound to lose the game because of it. //edit: Catelyn, in her grief for Bran and what might happen to Ned however does stupid things I agree. Naivete so vast in the face of overwhelming evidence that it goes even beyond criminal negligence. It's not even a question of what they did wrong, it's a question of which one of their schemes, plays, moves, or actions in any way turned out to be correct, beneficial, or anything but harmful. They are like the reverse Midas of the GoT world, everything they touch turns to pure shit. Getting rid of the Mad King is all well and good (though I find it hilarious that they all fucking hate the guy who did it), but everything else about that rebellion was fucked from the start and Ned was right in the middle of that shit. Hmmm... maybe telling Robert and everyone else in his dumbass family that his sister actually loves Rhaegar would have been a good start... | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On April 13 2013 23:17 sc2superfan101 wrote: Naivete so vast in the face of overwhelming evidence that it goes even beyond criminal negligence. It's not even a question of what they did wrong, it's a question of which one of their schemes, plays, moves, or actions in any way turned out to be correct, beneficial, or anything but harmful. They are like the reverse Midas of the GoT world, everything they touch turns to pure shit. Getting rid of the Mad King is all well and good (though I find it hilarious that they all fucking hate the guy who did it), but everything else about that rebellion was fucked from the start and Ned was right in the middle of that shit. Hmmm... maybe telling Robert and everyone else in his dumbass family that his sister actually loves Rhaegar would have been a good start... What? They murdered the Warden of the North and his heir, and the heir of the Warden of the East. Ok, maybe the biggest reason for Robert and the Stormlands to enter was Robert's love for Lyanna, but even so, Robert was best friends with Ned and Jon Arynn was his 2nd father the way he talks about him. There was no other course of action than go to war. How are Lyanna's feelings relevant at this point? Rickard and co went to KL to sort things out, Aerys II answered by torturing them to death. That s hardly Ned's fault for not telling, hey "ma' li'l sis' in love, it's cool dad, no reason to do anythin" | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
is it safe to assume that the choice to make book 3 into 2 seasons is not only a mean of getting enough screentime for all of the plots contained in the book but also give time to GRRM to finish his books before the show catches up to A dance with dragons? I think I read somewhere that was one of the greatest fears of GRRM; HBO catching up to him. you know, Id like to read the next book. With Daenarys becoming khaleesi again?, honing her dragon skillz and shit! | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 13 2013 23:52 Geo.Rion wrote: What? They murdered the Warden of the North and his heir, and the heir of the Warden of the East. Ok, maybe the biggest reason for Robert and the Stormlands to enter was Robert's love for Lyanna, but even so, Robert was best friends with Ned and Jon Arynn was his 2nd father the way he talks about him. There was no other course of action than go to war. How are Lyanna's feelings relevant at this point? Rickard and co went to KL to sort things out, Aerys II answered by torturing them to death. That s hardly Ned's fault for not telling, hey "ma' li'l sis' in love, it's cool dad, no reason to do anythin" While I'm not exactly one to ever suggest revolt against the long-standing, established government is a good idea, I'll accept the notion that the Mad King had passed the point of intolerable abuse of power. Sure, get rid of the bastard, but at least do it with some kind of backup plan that doesn't include putting Westoros' biggest frat-boy on the throne. I mean it's all well and good to be friends, and blood ties are important and all that jazz; but let's be pragmatic here. Handing the keys to the kingdom over to a notorious drunk with all the brains and responsibility of a spider monkey with a bad crack addiction isn't exactly what I would call an improvement. Say what you want about the Mad King and his incestuous ancestors, at least they kept the peace. Omelets and broken eggs and what not. And when that Mad King's son is Mr. Golden Boy that everyone and their grandmother loves to death, maybe letting frat-boy put an over-sized hammer through his chest isn't the best way to ensure a smooth transition of power. Now, good ol' Ned was young, so I can't blame him too much for not thinking: "Hey, maybe I should tell my brother NOT to go tell the Mad King he's gonna kill his beloved son. In fact, while I'm at it, maybe I should tell everyone that Lyanna probably just eloped because she doesn't want to sleep next to the walking STD that is Robert Baratheon every night for the rest of her life." I won't blame him too much, and I guess hindsight is always 20/20... but still, seems like it would have been a discussion worth having, no? Probably wouldn't have worked anyway, since it seems his dad and brother were itching to die, so I guess I'll let him off the hook for that. Perhaps I was being slightly facetious when I said they were responsible for every bad thing that happens. But for the life of me I cannot think of any good either Ned or Cat managed to accomplish. Ned helped get rid of the Mad King, so I guess that's good... but then again, that led directly to the overall decline that led directly to the fucking holocaust that is the War of Five Kings and it's aftermath. I'll grant that it wasn't all his fault, since how could he have known that Rhaegar was planning on overthrowing his babbling pyromaniac of a father anyway? But that doesn't mean the results of his actions disappear, just because he had some vaguely noble intentions. I mean, what's that old saying, something about hell and good intentions? Ned could write the book on that saying. Ned is the book on that saying. Cat... well, I can't blame her too much. She's clueless, blind, conceited, rash, incompetent, and not a very good mother... but then again, judging by the decisions of the men who've surrounded her for her whole life, we could probably put a lot of that up to bad upbringing. And I guess she didn't turn out to be as bad as her sister, though that isn't exactly saying much. And for whatever it's worth, she did try to do the right thing... kind of. But once again I can't think of any moment when her actions resulted in some tangible good. She didn't exactly make the world a brighter place, but I guess she didn't exactly dunk the whole thing in piss either. I guess my only point is that there's this whole idea that the Stark's are just too trusting, or too noble, or too unlucky... but GRRM always says that we can't trust a POV of the characters. I just can't help but wonder. Is there a point where trusting becomes so unbelievably stupid that it's literally impossible for anyone with half a brain to have thought that it was wise? Is there a point where saying you have noble intentions kind of falls flat because every action you do results in ever greater dishonor and torture being heaped upon everyone around you? And can anyone actually be that unlucky? I can't help but ask myself if maybe Ned and Cat were like some kind of duo version of Ra's Al Ghul bringing I'm probably just over-analyzing the whole thing, but honestly, I would rather face down a full-grown dragon armed only with a toothpick than risk being a child even remotely associated with the Stark family. | ||
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