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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On April 10 2013 21:40 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:18 c0ldfusion wrote:On April 10 2013 05:54 karazax wrote:
Having her gang raped, paid, and then making Tyrion go last was argueably worse than killing her. Then he provokes Tyrion the whole time after obviously having slept with Shae and proving what a hypocrit he was about whores.
"What did you do with Tysha?"
"Tysha?"
He does not even remember her name.
"The girl I married."
"Oh yes. Your first whore." (Jaime had just told Tyrion she actually wasn't a whore and really did love him)
Tyrion took aim at his father's chest. "The next time you say that word, I'll kill you."
"You do not have the courage."
"Shall we find out? It's a short word, and it seems to come so easily to your lips." Tyrion gestured impatiently with the bow. "Tysha. What did you do with her, after my little lesson?"
"I don't recall."
"Try harder. Did you have her killed?"
His father pursed his lips. "There was no reason for that, she'd learned her place... and had been well paid for her day's work, I seem to recall. I suppose the steward sent her on her way. I never thought to inquire."
"On her way where?"
"Whereever whores go." Alright, the whole crossbow thing aside, I just don't understand Tyrion's fascination with this woman. He of all people should have the sensibility to know that even if things didn't end the way they did, there was not going to be a possibility of him staying happily married to her. Love ain't logical. Tyrion was in love with this woman. You know what Tywin did to her. Tywin lied to Tyrion initially to make his actions more understandable ("She was just a whore and never loved you in the first place"). Once that lie became known, well.. Tyrion did what he had to do. I'm not sure what's not understandable about any of this. I'm getting more and more convinced that Shae is filling the role of Tysha in the show, by the way. In the show, Shae will be Tyrion's big love, and it will be Shae who will be taken away/murdered by Tywin (probably right after Tyrion will be arrested for Joffrey's death), which will result in Tyrion killing Tywin. It's an understandable change. You can't have Tyrion killing his father based on a story he told at one point in Season 1, as much as we'd like that.
As much as I don't want to believe you, you are probably right. But that changes so much about Tyrion's escape. It reduces a very complicated and interesting decision to a simple and boring revenge kill. It does way with Tyrion killing Shae, after she betrays him, which is one of the most satisfying parts of the book. It changes Tywin's character, because we no longer get to see his hypocrisy behind the scenes.
I really hope they don't do it that way
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Shae will not be killed by Tywin, i guarantee you that much. Otherwise you can send me an angry pm in summer 2014. It's far too much of a shocking reveal and strong scene during Tyrions escape to make the biggest change to the novels right there. It's nonsense to build up Shae as a Tysha replacement and the writers will not fall for that, especially considering what role Tysha and her daughter are likely to play in the forthcoming books.
But it's a good choice of the writers to make the connection between Shae and Tyrion seem more legit, so that the reveal will even be stronger.
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On April 11 2013 05:03 TigerKarl wrote:
especially considering what role Tysha and her daughter are likely to play in the forthcoming books.
source?
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I think he's basing it on Tyrion's constant wondering of "where do whores go?", but I had no idea she had a daughter. Was that mentioned in the books?
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lol why are people already so obsessed how Shae is gonna get killed when extremely relevant stuff is happening quite a bit earlier? (at least in the books that is). Joffrey's demise, the trial by battle with one of the coolest characters - Oberyn Martel who fights the mountain.
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On April 11 2013 04:48 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 01:53 Spaiku wrote:The TV show changed the Hand of the King's badge for a brooch instead of a necklace of hands linked into a chain. How is Tyrion going to choke Shae?  As I mentioned above, my guess is that he's not going to. I'll bet that Shae will be killed by Tywin instead.
crossbow maybe?
edit: but instead of shooting out an arrow, it would shoot out Tyrion's iron manhood.
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On April 11 2013 05:02 itkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:40 Conti wrote:On April 10 2013 21:18 c0ldfusion wrote:On April 10 2013 05:54 karazax wrote:
Having her gang raped, paid, and then making Tyrion go last was argueably worse than killing her. Then he provokes Tyrion the whole time after obviously having slept with Shae and proving what a hypocrit he was about whores.
"What did you do with Tysha?"
"Tysha?"
He does not even remember her name.
"The girl I married."
"Oh yes. Your first whore." (Jaime had just told Tyrion she actually wasn't a whore and really did love him)
Tyrion took aim at his father's chest. "The next time you say that word, I'll kill you."
"You do not have the courage."
"Shall we find out? It's a short word, and it seems to come so easily to your lips." Tyrion gestured impatiently with the bow. "Tysha. What did you do with her, after my little lesson?"
"I don't recall."
"Try harder. Did you have her killed?"
His father pursed his lips. "There was no reason for that, she'd learned her place... and had been well paid for her day's work, I seem to recall. I suppose the steward sent her on her way. I never thought to inquire."
"On her way where?"
"Whereever whores go." Alright, the whole crossbow thing aside, I just don't understand Tyrion's fascination with this woman. He of all people should have the sensibility to know that even if things didn't end the way they did, there was not going to be a possibility of him staying happily married to her. Love ain't logical. Tyrion was in love with this woman. You know what Tywin did to her. Tywin lied to Tyrion initially to make his actions more understandable ("She was just a whore and never loved you in the first place"). Once that lie became known, well.. Tyrion did what he had to do. I'm not sure what's not understandable about any of this. I'm getting more and more convinced that Shae is filling the role of Tysha in the show, by the way. In the show, Shae will be Tyrion's big love, and it will be Shae who will be taken away/murdered by Tywin (probably right after Tyrion will be arrested for Joffrey's death), which will result in Tyrion killing Tywin. It's an understandable change. You can't have Tyrion killing his father based on a story he told at one point in Season 1, as much as we'd like that. As much as I don't want to believe you, you are probably right. But that changes so much about Tyrion's escape. It reduces a very complicated and interesting decision to a simple and boring revenge kill. It does way with Tyrion killing Shae, after she betrays him, which is one of the most satisfying parts of the book. It changes Tywin's character, because we no longer get to see his hypocrisy behind the scenes. I really hope they don't do it that way
I would absolutely prefer the book version over anything else. I want to say that up-front to prevent angry arguments about which version is better. The book version is better. The end.
But: For a TV viewer, a guy who hasn't read any of the books, Shae filling the role of Tysha makes a lot of sense. You have to stop comparing everything to the books. Stop thinking "It would be so much better if X happened". Instead, see the story as a completely separate entity, as hard as it can be.
And if you can't do that, look at what we've seen in the show so far. The original Tyrion/Shae/Tywin plot wouldn't make a whole lot of sense in the show, not any more. Shae really, genuinely loves Tyrion. She wouldn't betray him just like that, and she wouldn't just sleep with Tywin just because he's some powerful dude. Show Shae betraying show Tyrion at this point just wouldn't make any sense.
Similarly, I just don't see show Tywin having whores in his bed. Show Tywin doesn't seem to be the hypocrite that book Tywin is. In the books, you could read between the lines and figure things out on yourself. In the show? Nope, not the tiniest hint can be found anywhere, and they're not going to spontaneously dump this onto the viewers.
And then there's Tysha. Tyrion talked about her once in Season 1, and that's it. It's clearly an incident that moved show Tyrion quite a bit, but still, it would be just very confusing if that suddenly becomes the reason for him to kill his father. Unless they're going to re-tell that story again somehow this season. And given that they so far have not done a single flashback, I'm not quite sure how they can show the significance of Tysha to show Tyrion.
So we have to get to dead Shae and dead Tywin in another way. Shae filling the role of Tysha just makes the most sense to me. That's why they changed the smart, ambiguous whore Shae to the pretty girl Shae that really does love Tyrion. That's why they keep pointing out the dangerous life that Shae leads, with Tywin threatening to have her killed if he finds out, and with Ros letting Shae know that she knows about Shae's past and so on. Tywin (or another Lannister) will find out, and it won't end well for her.
An alternative would be Shae becoming more and more jealous of Sansa once she's married to Tyrion, thus leading to her betrayal of Tyrion. That would be a much worse plot though, IMHO, and I'm hoping they're not going into that direction.
If they'll go with the Shae=Tysha route, I won't be happy, but I won't be that disappointed, either. Ideally, I would love for the show to stay true to the books, and Tyrion slowly choking Shae would have made for one hell of an intense, memorable scene, even more so than Tyrion killing Tywin. That'd be a lot of character development lost compared to the books. But the world ain't ideal, and we gotta be realistic here.
Heck, thinking of it, they could even keep the "where do whores go?" theme with the new plot. The meaning wouldn't be quite the same, but still. Just imagine the discussion between Tywin and Tyrion. Tyrion asks about Shae (not knowing what happened to her after he got arrested), and Tywin just shrugs it off and says that they brought her "wherever whores go", strongly implying that they killed her. That'll get Tyrion over the edge and make him kill Tywin, and the plot will return to more familiar paths from there.
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On April 11 2013 01:53 Spaiku wrote:The TV show changed the Hand of the King's badge for a brooch instead of a necklace of hands linked into a chain. How is Tyrion going to choke Shae?
with his 100 inch penis.
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Russian Federation59 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:27 Doublemint wrote:
lol why are people already so obsessed how Shae is gonna get killed when extremely relevant stuff is happening quite a bit earlier? (at least in the books that is). Joffrey's demise, the trial by battle with one of the coolest characters - Oberyn Martel who fights the mountain.
Because Shae is getting too much screen time in the show and is clearly portrayed as a good/caring character who is unlikely to betray Tyrion and who even cares about Sansa. Most book readers myself included do not like that and are worried about the potential changes to her death that was so amazingly portrayed in the book.
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On April 11 2013 05:38 ecstazy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 05:27 Doublemint wrote:
lol why are people already so obsessed how Shae is gonna get killed when extremely relevant stuff is happening quite a bit earlier? (at least in the books that is). Joffrey's demise, the trial by battle with one of the coolest characters - Oberyn Martel who fights the mountain. Because Shae is getting too much screen time in the show and is clearly portrayed as a good/caring character who is unlikely to betray Tyrion and who even cares about Sansa. Most book readers myself included do not like that and are worried about the potential changes to her death that was so amazingly portrayed in the book.
I agree that she does get too much screen time, though I am not sure that it is set in stone that she will not betray him, even though her behaviour up to this point would suggest otherwise. Also I did not find her death all thaaaat important and that the chain is now a brooch... she is bound to obey without power and her social status and will adapt to new situations as she has no other choice - people like Tywin or even Tyrion to some extent can choose their own fate.
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I will be disappointed if Shae does not betray Tyrion and/or Tyrion does not kill her. It would totally change so many things about post-exile Tyrion. Although it is definitely possible considering some of the odd changes they've made so far.
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
I don't buy the Sailor's wife being Tysha, mainly because Tyrion was not a sailor but also Tysha was not actually a whore. Her being Gerion Lannister's wife is more likely based on the second link.
I don't think Martin's the kind of writer who would allow Tyrion to find Tysha, it's too clichéd.
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On April 11 2013 07:00 moktira wrote:
I don't buy the Sailor's wife being Tysha, mainly because Tyrion was not a sailor but also Tysha was not actually a whore. Her being Gerion Lannister's wife is more likely based on the second link.
I don't think Martin's the kind of writer who would allow Tyrion to find Tysha, it's too clichéd.
Hmm, it actually makese sense. I dont think they will meet, but i think it might be one of the "easter eggs" in the series, some people might find it, but has no relevance on the big picture, even if it is true.
Like Sandor Clegane being alive, which is a lot more likely than this, but still, i like the idea.
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
Yeah but Sandor is almost definitely still alive, and the fact that he appeared in one of Bran's dreams early on indicates he might still be important.
You're right that Tysha could certainly appear as some kind of "easter egg" though, that is the sort of thing he'd do, I just doubt that's the Sailor's wife.
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On April 11 2013 07:00 moktira wrote:
I don't buy the Sailor's wife being Tysha (...) but also Tysha was not actually a whore.
The Sailor's Wife only bedds men who married her could be a cruel parallel of her relation with Tyrion. Only sharing bed with her married husband, but still being (perceived as) a whore. I don't like this theory regardless, but this one aspect actually fits quite well.
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
On April 11 2013 19:37 crow_mw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 07:00 moktira wrote:
I don't buy the Sailor's wife being Tysha (...) but also Tysha was not actually a whore. The Sailor's Wife only bedds men who married her could be a cruel parallel of her relation with Tyrion. Only sharing bed with her married husband, but still being (perceived as) a whore. I don't like this theory regardless, but this one aspect actually fits quite well.
But she didn't only have sex with people she married, she didn't marry any of Tywin's guards and was paid for each, though I guess she did not have the option there. Also I don't think Tyrion married her immediately (though I could be wrong here), I thought he had sex with her very shortly after Jaime saved her which was one of the reasons he thought it was suspicious in hindsight, and then they got married later. To me it only partly fits.
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On April 11 2013 05:08 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 05:03 TigerKarl wrote:
especially considering what role Tysha and her daughter are likely to play in the forthcoming books. source?
smartness
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Zurich15365 Posts
On April 10 2013 21:48 Adron wrote:
btw, isnt it gutwrencing to read all the posts in the unspoilered thread from all those hopeful people?
Much, much worse are the assholes who have read the books and "guess" the correct story out of pure vanity.
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EPT
