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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 06 2012 15:26 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:04 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
After the Tyrion & Sansa marriage, he fancies himself capable of being a good husband to her. Does he ever consider what she wants? Not Tyrion as a husband, to be sure. No, she's not being superficial here, she doesn't want any husband. Especially not one from a family Tyrion does consider what Sansa wants in the books. To be blunt, Tyrion was not the worst husband Sansa could have had. Even she acknowledges that Tyrion was kind, during the scene where Cat's sister insults Tyrion.
I hadn't quite finished writing my post when I accidentally hit the post button. I do give credit to Tyrion for trying to understand what Sansa wants. But he falls flat in the attempt.
I was speaking more towards Tyrion's expectations of women in a relationship.
He tells himself he loves Shae and expects love in return, with thoughts of 'just a whore doing it for gold' not far from thought.
He deludes himself into thinking that they might have a genuine relationship.
Early on in his marriage to Sansa, Tyrion had notions of actually making the marriage work. Despite the huge rift between Stark/Lannister, he attempts to connect to Sansa but fails. Clearly this is not what she needs or wants at the moment.
'Not consider' is probably poor wording. 'Tyrion's failure to understand what women want from a relationship' is more concise.
His gross misunderstanding makes it seem like he doesn't consider them. With regards to a relationship, specifically.
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On June 06 2012 17:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 16:31 TheRealPaciFist wrote:+ Show Spoiler [book spoilers] +
I can't wait for Jaime to have his arm lopped off! I thought it happened soon after Catelyn released him, so either I remember Clash of Kings wrong or the season decided to leave it for later? Also, can't wait for Tyrion to bust a cap in his papa's ass =D
Peter Dinklage is such a badass... and I thoroughly loved the last few episodes. Well, loved the entire season! I think it happens after the Lannister lackeys capture them.
Who's going to do it now though? Vargo Hoat hasn't been introduced yet... Though I guess I can see Vargo and his band, and Beric Dondarrion and the Brotherhood without Banners introduced at the same time to be played off against each other. Would necessitate Arya joining up with them first I think...?
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On June 06 2012 12:49 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:22 Quexana wrote:On June 06 2012 11:03 Nevuk wrote:
GRRM telling Alfie that pretty much confirms that Jon Snow's father isn't Ned, right?
It also confirms that Martin never learned not to tell secret to a person who is so infamously a stoner that their sister wrote a song about it.
I don't think the RW thing will be ruined because the Boltons weren't the primary people there... yes they bear some blame but far more falls on the Freys and Lannisters (note how lady stoneheart isn't explicitly hunting down every bolton... even if she should be). I never really thought Ned was Jon Snow's father. I think he's Jon Snow's uncle. There are about 1000 different clues pointing to Jon being the son of Lyanna Stark. The question is who is Jon Snow's real father. I never did either but it's very much a GRRM thing to do to throw up all those flags that he isn't the son and then at the end be like "no, he is." Luke Skywalker though? What the hell could that even refer to?
I think there are a lot of signs in the book pointing to the idea that Lyanna is Jon's mother, there are very few signs pointing to who his father might be. What signs there are seem to point to Jon's father being a Targaryn, hence a lot of rumors about it being Rhegar. For it to be a "Luke Skywalker" moment though, my guess would be that his father is Aerys Targaryn "The Mad King"
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On June 06 2012 19:42 SilverLeagueElite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:26 acker wrote:On June 06 2012 15:04 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
After the Tyrion & Sansa marriage, he fancies himself capable of being a good husband to her. Does he ever consider what she wants? Not Tyrion as a husband, to be sure. No, she's not being superficial here, she doesn't want any husband. Especially not one from a family Tyrion does consider what Sansa wants in the books. To be blunt, Tyrion was not the worst husband Sansa could have had. Even she acknowledges that Tyrion was kind, during the scene where Cat's sister insults Tyrion. I hadn't quite finished writing my post when I accidentally hit the post button. I do give credit to Tyrion for trying to understand what Sansa wants. But he falls flat in the attempt. I was speaking more towards Tyrion's expectations of women in a relationship. He tells himself he loves Shae and expects love in return, with thoughts of 'just a whore doing it for gold' not far from thought. He deludes himself into thinking that they might have a genuine relationship. Early on in his marriage to Sansa, Tyrion had notions of actually making the marriage work. Despite the huge rift between Stark/Lannister, he attempts to connect to Sansa but fails. Clearly this is not what she needs or wants at the moment. 'Not consider' is probably poor wording. 'Tyrion's failure to understand what women want from a relationship' is more concise. His gross misunderstanding makes it seem like he doesn't consider them. With regards to a relationship, specifically.
He knows she doesn't want anyone, specially not a Lannister, but the options were either him or someone worse. Sansa not marrying was never an option to Tywin. Then Tyrion tried to make things work as well as they could have worked. From what they knew at the time, they would be married for quite a long time. Trying to make her realize that, and the fact she got a much better deal than she could have otherwise, makes sense. He understands what she wants, but unfortunately that's not an option, so he tries to make their undesirable future a little more pleasant.
It has been a while since I read that part, but from what I recall, I really feel that was a situation Tyrion wasn't at fault at all. Sansa's action, while understandably so, were much more senseless and she was the one that didn't really understand what she, or him, where obligated to go through.
Plus, later on, there's the whole arc with Penny. What I could get from the books in general, specially in the end with that arc, is that GRRM wants us to feel like Tyrion forces a certain impression of himself to the others, maybe in a large part because of his past history with his first wife, and he actually wants to be like that, but deep inside he has a soft heart and understands other people. Basically the old tough guy with a soft hard trope. I feel like the "whoring" Tyrion feels more fake than the "good" Tyrion.
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On June 06 2012 13:01 Live2Win wrote:
I'm afraid I'm completely missing your point about Tyrion though. I don't really see why he should be feeling bad for himself, over feeling just anger over his family who literally "fucked up" his marriage.
i mean that he doesn't seem to give a shit about how it affected Tysha, only about himself.
I don't see what's wrong with him killing Shae either. (I mean, I understand that killing is wrong of course, but at the same time it's understandable as she was the only one he had truly trusted, despite trying not to at the beginning of their "relationship")
uhh.... are you kidding? he strangles a woman to death because she (a prostitute) slept with someone else. that's pretty fucked up.
And what about his treatment of Sansa exactly? I thought he treated her well.
1. he marries her, attempting to take away her birthright (he is not forced)
2. he almost forces himself upon her (what he did is technically sexual assault)
3. he consistently blames her for her feelings against him
4. he is part of the family that has kidnapped, beaten, and almost killed her and takes none of that into account except as pity for himself over her not wanting to fuck him (which btw is hilarious how hypocritical Tyrion is about that).
On June 06 2012 22:27 SKC wrote:
but the options were either him or someone worse.
from Sansa's perspective, i don't know that there could be someone much worse. or why we should assume that it was either Tyrion (who is not a nice guy by any means) or someone even worse. i never got the feeling that Tywin gave a fuck who Sansa was marrying, as long as it was someone under his control.
edit: this makes it sound like im ragging on Tyrion too much. i like Tyrion as a character (even though sometimes he gets on my nerves with the mentioning his cock every ten seconds) but he is a total POS when you think about it. the dude has almost no moral compunction whatsoever, and what little he does have is usually fueled by bitterness and pragmatism rather than any actual caring. i think it will be interesting to see what GRRM does with it (im not convinced GRRM knows that Tyrion is a POS but thats ok cause part of the fun of these books is examining just how fucked up in the head GRRM is)
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Should be noted I think that Tyrion gave Sansa the option to not go forward with the marriage. He says something like "we don't have to go forward with this farce," but Sansa agrees anyway because she considers it her duty.
Also, I think he murdered Shae more because of her testimony at the trial, where she mocked him, than for sleeping w/ Tywin.
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On June 06 2012 22:43 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:01 Live2Win wrote:
I'm afraid I'm completely missing your point about Tyrion though. I don't really see why he should be feeling bad for himself, over feeling just anger over his family who literally "fucked up" his marriage. i mean that he doesn't seem to give a shit about how it affected Tysha, only about himself. Show nested quote +I don't see what's wrong with him killing Shae either. (I mean, I understand that killing is wrong of course, but at the same time it's understandable as she was the only one he had truly trusted, despite trying not to at the beginning of their "relationship") uhh.... are you kidding? he strangles a woman to death because she (a prostitute) slept with someone else. that's pretty fucked up. Show nested quote +
And what about his treatment of Sansa exactly? I thought he treated her well.
1. he marries her, attempting to take away her birthright (he is not forced) 2. he almost forces himself upon her (what he did is technically sexual assault) 3. he consistently blames her for her feelings against him 4. he is part of the family that has kidnapped, beaten, and almost killed her and takes none of that into account except as pity for himself over her not wanting to fuck him (which btw is hilarious how hypocritical Tyrion is about that). Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:27 SKC wrote:
but the options were either him or someone worse. from Sansa's perspective, i don't know that there could be someone much worse. or why we should assume that it was either Tyrion (who is not a nice guy by any means) or someone even worse. i never got the feeling that Tywin gave a fuck who Sansa was marrying, as long as it was someone under his control.
I don't remember exactly who, but when Tywin tells Tyrion he is marrying him to Sansa and he tries to refuse, I'm pretty sure he then tells him he would then marry her to someone else, someone who definatelly wouldn't treat her kindly and would force her to do as he wanted. That's the solution Tywin finds when he learns the Tyrells where trying to marry Sansa off to Willas. It's 100% certain Sansa would marry a Lannister, so they could inherit Winterfell. She got lucky it was Tyrion. Basically every source you read online says Tyrion treated her well, I really feel like you are the only with the wrong interpretation of the books.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
Regarding his relationship with Shae, of course he has thoughts of "just a whore doing it for gold". He is very weary of falling in love because of his physical disability. He knows most women ridicule him as that's what he's been use to all his life. Then his experience with his wife teaches him to not trust anyone anymore. Considering these things he isn't easily convinced that anyone is capable of "falling in love" with him. The woman he thought ever loved him turned out to be a whore doing it for money (which is not true of course, but he doesn't know that yet). So of course his relationship with Shae is laden with doubts about her loyalty. Because after all, Shae IS a whore. Yet despite himself he falls for her.
When he kills her, I'd attribute that more to impulsive behavior. Remember at this point he had completely opened up to Shae and trusted her. Then she comes out and spills EVERYTHING. And probably the greatest embarrassment to Tyrion is the detail of the "My giant of Lannister". That's not a detail she had to divulge, but she did and Tyrion was the laughing stock in front of the whole court.
If there was any trace of doubt in his heart about Shae's betrayal, maybe she was forced to against her will, it was erased when he saw her in bed with Tywin. Because he hates Tywin, and especially can't believe the hypocrisy of it as Tywin always said sleeping with whores is something that is too lowly for a Lannister. And he sees the golden chain of the hand around her neck, and that's when he knows for sure that all this time she was going after his wealth and position as a Lannister, and love had nothing to do with it. And the fact that she slept with Tywin, the person who he hates the most (remember this was right after he found out about the truth of Tysha) really hit the nail in the coffin. (Think of it as coming home and finding your wife/gf is sleeping with someone who you hate, and she knows you hate) I'd imagine at this point he's just seeing red, and killed them both out of emotional rage.
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On June 06 2012 22:43 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:01 Live2Win wrote:
I'm afraid I'm completely missing your point about Tyrion though. I don't really see why he should be feeling bad for himself, over feeling just anger over his family who literally "fucked up" his marriage. i mean that he doesn't seem to give a shit about how it affected Tysha, only about himself. Show nested quote +I don't see what's wrong with him killing Shae either. (I mean, I understand that killing is wrong of course, but at the same time it's understandable as she was the only one he had truly trusted, despite trying not to at the beginning of their "relationship") uhh.... are you kidding? he strangles a woman to death because she (a prostitute) slept with someone else. that's pretty fucked up. Show nested quote +
And what about his treatment of Sansa exactly? I thought he treated her well.
1. he marries her, attempting to take away her birthright (he is not forced) 2. he almost forces himself upon her (what he did is technically sexual assault) 3. he consistently blames her for her feelings against him 4. he is part of the family that has kidnapped, beaten, and almost killed her and takes none of that into account except as pity for himself over her not wanting to fuck him (which btw is hilarious how hypocritical Tyrion is about that). Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:27 SKC wrote:
but the options were either him or someone worse. from Sansa's perspective, i don't know that there could be someone much worse. or why we should assume that it was either Tyrion (who is not a nice guy by any means) or someone even worse. i never got the feeling that Tywin gave a fuck who Sansa was marrying, as long as it was someone under his control.
I don't remember exactly who, but when Tywin tells Tyrion he is marrying him to Sansa and he tries to refuse, I'm pretty sure he then tells him he would then marry her to someone else, someone who definatelly wouldn't treat her kindly and would force her to do as he wanted. That's the solution Tywin finds when he learns the Tyrells where trying to marry Sansa off to Willas. It's 100% certain Sansa would marry a Lannister, so they could inherit Winterfell. She got lucky it was Tyrion. Basically every source you read online says Tyrion treated her well, I really feel like you are the only with the wrong interpretation of the books.
"Tyrion makes a complete recovery some weeks later, only to learn that Lord Tywin had taken all the glory and taken over as Hand. Tyrion finds himself demoted to Master of Coin, replacing Petyr Baelish and forced into a political marriage with Sansa Stark to forestall a Tyrell move to marry her to Willas Tyrell.[29] The wedding to Sansa goes forward, though Tyrion chooses to defy custom and does not consummate their marriage, saying he will not touch her unless and until she wants him to. His father pushes him to consummate the marriage with Sansa for the good of the house, but Tyrion never does - a decision that earns him scorn and jest in court.[30] Tyrion's marriage brings him no joy, as Sansa is repulsed by him and Shae remains indifferent, indicating she never really loved him in the first place."
From: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sansa_Stark
Consumating the marriage was actually a big deal because the marriage could be easily anulled unless they did so. That's why Tywin tried to force it and that's why almost noone would actually care if the woman wanted it or not.
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oh i'm sure that Shae's testimony had something to do with it, but if you think about it, what other option did Shae have? do we really think Cersei would hesitate having Shae tortured or maimed if she didn't make her testimony believable? we're never told if Shae was or wasn't threatened, but i think it would be completely out of character for Cersei to have not threatened her with at least some violence. and yes, she is a whore, and being able to leave behind a life of prostitution (which in Westeros is a hard life it sounds like) for the possibility of a noble marriage would be very hard to turn away, especially if the other option is to go down with Tyrion only not have the option of a trial by combat. i think Tyrion wouldn't have killed her if he had just seen her, he would have just left. but he sees her with Tywin and he immediately blames her for what he and Tywin have done, and kills her, not for testifying against him and lying, but for betraying his trust sexually with a person he hated.
i know that Tywin threatens to have Tyrion married off to Lollys, and Tyrion treats this like it's utterly ridiculous and unthinkable, but think about it for a second. how is Tyrion marrying Lollys (who is ugly and annoying from his perspective) any different than Sansa marrying Tyrion (who is ugly and annoying from her perspective)? Tyrion's inability to see this is indicative of his personality: he despises women in general and is hypocritical of their desires vs his. Tyrion's biggest gripe seems to be that hot young chicks don't find him attractive, but he never gives a thought to the idea that he's not attracted to people who aren't hot young chicks.
maybe Sansa was threatened, i don't remember if she was or wasn't (i was almost positive that the "carrot" of Winterfell was what made him go for it). i definitely think it's good that Tyrion didn't rape her, but think about it, how would you feel if your 13 year old daughter came home and said a grown man stripped her, put her on a bed and then sat there with his naked cock out for a couple of minutes before putting it away. yeah, great she wasn't raped, but that is still way beyond OK, no matter what reason he could give for doing it. and the fact is that his POV he usually sees things as they happen to him: he rarely feels bad for Sansa, but more feels bad for himself for having to marry a hot young chick who hates his guts. i know he said she could have Lancel instead, but let's be serious for a moment: at that point Lancel is bed-ridden, is just another Lannister, and they are AT the altar when he says this. Sansa isn't stupid, and niether is Tyrion, they both know that her marrying Lancel isn't gonna happen.
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On June 06 2012 16:33 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 16:22 anomalopidae wrote:On June 06 2012 12:12 Steveling wrote:
Jon is infact Aegon. And the Aegon that Tyrion met is a fake, even though he doesn't know himself.
Why are we speaking as though Jon is def alive in next book? Didn't he got stabbed like 4 times? I really don't see how he can be Aegon, he is described as having many Stark features, while Aegon was a child of Targaryen and Martell. It's far more likely he's Lyanna's son, and tbh from what I recall of her description, his behaviour is a lot like hers. Well, I suppose we don't believe him to be dead cause he's a warg and because Melissandre is there, she a tricky woman  Yeah, Jon is too important to die from just getting stabbed a few times. Too important as in, he's almost certainly one of the three heads of the dragon (I'm 90% sold on the L+R=J thing),
Many of you brought that up as an argument. He's too important to die.
That's the #1 sign that when you see it you can say a story has gone bad.
GRRM should a) either have made the story recoverable after such a death or b) not put his hero in such a bad position that forces the readers to go "no, that's all a silly ploy, he's not dead".
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On June 06 2012 23:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
oh i'm sure that Shae's testimony had something to do with it, but if you think about it, what other option did Shae have? do we really think Cersei would hesitate having Shae tortured or maimed if she didn't make her testimony believable? we're never told if Shae was or wasn't threatened, but i think it would be completely out of character for Cersei to have not threatened her with at least some violence. and yes, she is a whore, and being able to leave behind a life of prostitution (which in Westeros is a hard life it sounds like) for the possibility of a noble marriage would be very hard to turn away, especially if the other option is to go down with Tyrion only not have the option of a trial by combat. i think Tyrion wouldn't have killed her if he had just seen her, he would have just left. but he sees her with Tywin and he immediately blames her for what he and Tywin have done, and kills her, not for testifying against him and lying, but for betraying his trust sexually with a person he hated.
i know that Tywin threatens to have Tyrion married off to Lollys, and Tyrion treats this like it's utterly ridiculous and unthinkable, but think about it for a second. how is Tyrion marrying Lollys (who is ugly and annoying from his perspective) any different than Sansa marrying Tyrion (who is ugly and annoying from her perspective)? Tyrion's inability to see this is indicative of his personality: he despises women in general and is hypocritical of their desires vs his. Tyrion's biggest gripe seems to be that hot young chicks don't find him attractive, but he never gives a thought to the idea that he's not attracted to people who aren't hot young chicks.
maybe Sansa was threatened, i don't remember if she was or wasn't (i was almost positive that the "carrot" of Winterfell was what made him go for it). i definitely think it's good that Tyrion didn't rape her, but think about it, how would you feel if your 13 year old daughter came home and said a grown man stripped her, put her on a bed and then sat there with his naked cock out for a couple of minutes before putting it away. yeah, great she wasn't raped, but that is still way beyond OK, no matter what reason he could give for doing it. and the fact is that his POV he usually sees things as they happen to him: he rarely feels bad for Sansa, but more feels bad for himself for having to marry a hot young chick who hates his guts. i know he said she could have Lancel instead, but let's be serious for a moment: at that point Lancel is bed-ridden, is just another Lannister, and they are AT the altar when he says this. Sansa isn't stupid, and niether is Tyrion, they both know that her marrying Lancel isn't gonna happen.
I'm not talking about that part at the altar, I'm pretty sure Tyrion didn't want to do it when Tywin said he would, and it had nothing to do with Winterfell. Tywin would make her marry a Lannister anyway, he would never let her marry Willas, and Tyrion knew marriage was the best solution for both her and him. The thing is, your conclusions are heavily biased by the fact you believe he is a piece of shit, while a lot of people, probally most readers, believe he is actually a nice guy deep inside. A lot of the story is fucked up, so you can't really apply common values of today into Westeros. Things like 13 olds getting married to an old man was common practice, or at least not completelly unusual, and it's not comparable at all to a 13 old girl being forced to marry someone in "our world"
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holy fucking shit i got scared at the end of the episode! fuck where are these white walkers heading?
oh boy i am so pumped.
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On June 06 2012 16:21 scudst0rm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:53 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Man it's easy. Lyanna and Rhaegar had a kid. It's Jon Snow. The whole civil war started because Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna when she was supposed to go to Robert Baratheon. Yes, this is commonly referred to as the J=R+L theory. There is so much evidence for it that it's basically an accepted fact.
Id like to see a poll on what % of book readers believe the theory. I might be one of the only non-believers.
Edit: To the guy above me, I think you might be in the wrong thread. RUN AND NEVER COME BACK.
Or if you don't remember they're heading to the Fist of the First Men where the Night Watch are.
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Is it possible that Shae wasn't actually sleeping with Tywin, but was instead planted by Varys to ensure Tyrion would kill Tywin?
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On June 07 2012 02:35 APurpleCow wrote:
Is it possible that Shae wasn't actually sleeping with Tywin, but was instead planted by Varys to ensure Tyrion would kill Tywin?
Yes, very possible
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Some info/spoiler about Jon Snows parents might have been released.
http://io9.com/5916127/has-theon-greyjoy-revealed-the-biggest-game-of-thrones-secret-of-them-all
Theon Greyjoy actor Alfie Allen reveals he asked George R.R. Martin the answer to one of the saga's biggest unsolved mysteries, and his answer certainly drops some potentially massive clues:
You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation.
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On June 07 2012 00:41 bailando wrote:holy fucking shit i got scared at the end of the episode! fuck where are these white walkers heading? oh boy i am so pumped.
how do all these non readers keep stumbling in to this thread?
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On June 06 2012 22:08 Quexana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:49 Nevuk wrote:On June 06 2012 11:22 Quexana wrote:On June 06 2012 11:03 Nevuk wrote:
GRRM telling Alfie that pretty much confirms that Jon Snow's father isn't Ned, right?
It also confirms that Martin never learned not to tell secret to a person who is so infamously a stoner that their sister wrote a song about it.
I don't think the RW thing will be ruined because the Boltons weren't the primary people there... yes they bear some blame but far more falls on the Freys and Lannisters (note how lady stoneheart isn't explicitly hunting down every bolton... even if she should be). I never really thought Ned was Jon Snow's father. I think he's Jon Snow's uncle. There are about 1000 different clues pointing to Jon being the son of Lyanna Stark. The question is who is Jon Snow's real father. I never did either but it's very much a GRRM thing to do to throw up all those flags that he isn't the son and then at the end be like "no, he is." Luke Skywalker though? What the hell could that even refer to? I think there are a lot of signs in the book pointing to the idea that Lyanna is Jon's mother, there are very few signs pointing to who his father might be. What signs there are seem to point to Jon's father being a Targaryn, hence a lot of rumors about it being Rhegar. For it to be a "Luke Skywalker" moment though, my guess would be that his father is Aerys Targaryn "The Mad King"
This can still be interpreted to fit J=R+L. Kid was raised by his uncle who hid the identity of his real father, who turns out to be one of the "bad guys". It's only "a bit of a luke skywalker situation" so it doesn't have to match 100%.
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A Luke Skywalker situation... So Jon's father has to be an enemy... So his father was Tywin Lannister?
I think we've solved this riddle :-p
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EPT
