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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
Russian Federation1401 Posts
On May 30 2011 22:34 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 20:45 SF-Fork wrote:On May 30 2011 20:38 zalz wrote:On May 30 2011 20:20 SF-Fork wrote:On May 30 2011 20:14 zalz wrote:On May 30 2011 17:18 WhiteDog wrote:On May 30 2011 16:53 zalz wrote:On May 30 2011 16:33 elt wrote:
I guess in the big scheme of things it's quite insignificant? The writing was on the wall, and this way everyone gets to see how much of a bastard Littlefinger is (as I would assume TV-goers would simply assume it's all Littlefinger's fault).
We've got a giant ass convergence going on (Malazan-style) with how Dany is shaping out. Don't forget Euron blowing his "dragon-taming" horn (can't remember the details exactly) at the end of Feast. Everyone is going to Dany, and I think we have to wait and see how that plays itself out (interplay between the Ironborn, Quentyn Martell and Tyrion) before we can really guess what will happen when she crosses the Narrow Sea.
Lastly, I don't know if it's only me but I'm under a sneaking suspicion that Robb acknowledged Jon in some official manner and named him his heir sometime in Storm. I can't direct you to the chapter, but I remember distinctly Robb having an argument with Catelyn about having the need for a Stark, a man, to lead the army were something to happen to him and she was incredibly opposed to it. Just how fun would it be were one of Robb's bannermen to turn up at the wall (with Howland Reed for added effect <.<) to name Jon King in the North (as a Stark or Targaryen, take your pick).
He didn't blow that horn himself, one of his people did and they ended up dead with their inside's burned to a crisp. After the death of Hoster Tully, Robb intended to return to the North, reclaim his territory which has been conquered by the ironmen, and avenge the deaths of his brothers. With his brothers believed dead, he discussed the matter of his succession with his mother, and to her chagrin suggested that his wish was that, if he were to die, Jon Snow might succeed him. Shortly after, he sent Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover North to Greywater Watch with a letter detailing his plans, its contents unrevealed. This is what the wiki says so it's likely to still be a plot point. Problem with that however is that i just don't see Jon leaving the wall. He had his chance when Stannis offered him but i feel like Jon really sees himself as a man of the nightswatch and is too honourable to leave. Still, Jon will leave the wall one day or another, it's obvious. Yeah he will have to, the wall itself is too limited and too disconnected from the rest of the story and Jon is clearly to big a character. I think he will leave after the white walkers are defeated because then he could leave with a sense of "i have done my duty". But for him to leave otherwise seems to go against the character. He also might leave if the Wall itself is defeated, which seems much more likely. Could be but in that case he wouldn't be able to join the "main" story and he would still be in the nightswatch. Seems odd to suddenly lead an army to re-take the north for the Starks when days before that the white walkers ran down your wall and are currently invading that very same north. I don't think the white walker storyline will be that big anyway. My guess would be that it gets defeated before they cross the wall. Maybe with the help of a dragon. A single dragon would instantly render the white walkers harmless. They can't fight back and they are more vulnerable then normal humans to dragons. It would also provide a good chance for Danny to meet up with Jon, work out him being a Targaryen and him joining her army. I think a general defeat of the Seven Kingdoms by the Night Walkers because they couldn't solve their petty differences and didn't act when it mattered fits Martin's style much better. I see the Wall being broken, and Jon traveling south to unite the Seven Kingdoms with his Stark and Targaryen claim. GRRM does have a hand in fucking every single character he writes over. It does suit his style. On the other hand i just can't feel like at the core this story is about people and their interactions and i feel like something like that would be lost if there was suddenly an allmighty force of evil that isn't in the least bit gray. Most of his characters, regardless of their side, are gray. These white walker mordor-types just don't seem to mesh well with the story and i think making them the center of attention wouldn't be a true to the story's core as a battle between Danny and the 7 kingdoms would be. But if GRRM stays true to how he writes then it's probably going to be something i never expected.
Ultimate defeat would be a pretty harsh lesson for human interactions, don't you think?
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On May 30 2011 23:07 Nesto wrote:
Can anyone remind me, who was in charge of the 7 Kingdoms at the end of book 4?
If I remember correctly, Joffrey and Tywin are dead, Cersei is imprisoned by the septon, Kevan refused to be hand of the king and left the capital, Varys / Littlefinger disappeared, Picelle is dead(?), Tyrion and Jaime are gone.
so who's in charge / ruling for Tommen ?
After Cersei's imprisonment, the small council named Kevan Regent of the King, but we are yet to know, if he has accepted it.
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I cant believe this shit, i m at the 1/4th of the 3rd book and all the positive caracters are screwed over sooo badly it's not even funny. I liked the story cuz the balance of power was so fragile it could swing either way but now it needs a fucking chain of miracles to make things even again.
Where i'm at the story looks like this:
- 30k wildlings are about to storm The Wall
- White Walkers just attacked the ~300ish black brothers at the Fist
-The Greyjoys took several important strategical castles North
-Winterfell is in ashes and has no inhabitants
- the 2 youngest Starks are out in the wild basicly alone, though this is an improvement since their alegged beheadings
- beside the Greyjoys and the Wildlings, Starks have to face the combined power of King's Landing, Castlery Rock, Highgarden, Storm's End and Sunspear. (i'm not sure about the last one, but i understood they are with them as well). Against them, they have the North and probably the weakest of the 8 houses, the Tullys of Riverrun, what remained of those anyways. The Eyrie was afraid to join them when it was Tully+Stark vs Lannister, i dont see why would aid them now.
-if the gross outnumbering wont be enough, they actually lost the support of the Freys for absoultely no gain but a dozen swords which are more likely to kill Robb then to help him, which means even worse outnumbering and the ability to go back and settle things North, cuz they have no way to cross
- Their only asset vs the Lannisters, Jaime, has been set free. Best case scenario, they get the whiny Sansa back, though not fucking likely, since he said she'd marry s1 in Highgarden
- Arya just walked into some raiders of sort, AGAIN
- Jon Snow was forced to slay one of the coolest Black Brother and join the Wildlings
- Davos, just go arrested
-Tyrion, the only caracter who is on the winnig side right now, lost half his face, all his power and support he gathered and was threatened to not whore, and gained basickly nothing.
I dont give a fck abuot Danny.
So someone who read all of these books, just PM me please. Are things gonna get better for them, or should i quit reading this to not waste my time on a couple hundred more pages to find out how they fail even more and die one by one? I've been waiting some sort of upswing since the death of Ned Stark, yet it seems they are going even further down, and fast.
I want no major spoiler so i dont want to read the thread, someone please PM me..
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There will be upswings and massive downswings :p
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2011 00:35 Geo.Rion wrote:
I cant believe this shit, i m at the 1/4th of the 3rd book and all the positive caracters are screwed over sooo badly it's not even funny. I liked the story cuz the balance of power was so fragile it could swing either way but now it needs a fucking chain of miracles to make things even again.
Where i'm at the story looks like this:
- 30k wildlings are about to storm The Wall
- White Walkers just attacked the ~300ish black brothers at the Fist
-The Greyjoys took several important strategical castles North
-Winterfell is in ashes and has no inhabitants
- the 2 youngest Starks are out in the wild basicly alone, though this is an improvement since their alegged beheadings
- beside the Greyjoys and the Wildlings, Starks have to face the combined power of King's Landing, Castlery Rock, Highgarden, Storm's End and Sunspear. (i'm not sure about the last one, but i understood they are with them as well). Against them, they have the North and probably the weakest of the 8 houses, the Tullys of Riverrun, what remained of those anyways. The Eyrie was afraid to join them when it was Tully+Stark vs Lannister, i dont see why would aid them now.
-if the gross outnumbering wont be enough, they actually lost the support of the Freys for absoultely no gain but a dozen swords which are more likely to kill Robb then to help him, which means even worse outnumbering and the ability to go back and settle things North, cuz they have no way to cross
- Their only asset vs the Lannisters, Jaime, has been set free. Best case scenario, they get the whiny Sansa back, though not fucking likely, since he said she'd marry s1 in Highgarden
- Arya just walked into some raiders of sort, AGAIN
- Jon Snow was forced to slay one of the coolest Black Brother and join the Wildlings
- Davos, just go arrested
-Tyrion, the only caracter who is on the winnig side right now, lost half his face, all his power and support he gathered and was threatened to not whore, and gained basickly nothing.
I dont give a fck abuot Danny.
So someone who read all of these books, just PM me please. Are things gonna get better for them, or should i quit reading this to not waste my time on a couple hundred more pages to find out how they fail even more and die one by one? I've been waiting some sort of upswing since the death of Ned Stark, yet it seems they are going even further down, and fast.
I want no major spoiler so i dont want to read the thread, someone please PM me..
"Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow."
There will be darker events before the end, and some good events for you as well. As vague as that is to say, that's the truth, with the characters you mentioned.
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On May 31 2011 00:39 duckii wrote:
There will be upswings and massive downswings :p
For most sides that is! You'll learn to like characters that you currently dislike or even hate. You'll be totally depressed at some point, but then it can't get any worse...
Also becomes more and more interesting to read book by book...
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Reading that reminds just how badly GRRM beats down on his characters. It's not even balanced at times, some characters just get to eat shit every chapter again and again. Your used to think "ooh something bad happend, so up next is something good" but more often then not it's a no-go.
Things do get better for some characters but worse for others. I feel like saying too much about it could ruin it but some hated characters finally get their due in 3.
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I was just reading some ASOIAF-Wiki when a name popped up: Lord Jon Connington, former Hand of the King and best friend of Rhaegar. As he was exiled, maybe he will join Dany at some point. He sounds like a good addition to her roster 
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On May 31 2011 01:38 Damian wrote:I was just reading some ASOIAF-Wiki when a name popped up: Lord Jon Connington, former Hand of the King and best friend of Rhaegar. As he was exiled, maybe he will join Dany at some point. He sounds like a good addition to her roster
I certainly hope not. Never liked Dany, never will.
I already hate the idea that some of my favorite characters (Tyrion, Victarion) are going to be associated with Dany. If they become her loyal servants I'll be even more pissed. Sucks that my least favorite character is likely to stay alive until the very end.
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On May 31 2011 01:34 zalz wrote:
Reading that reminds just how badly GRRM beats down on his characters. It's not even balanced at times, some characters just get to eat shit every chapter again and again. Your used to think "ooh something bad happend, so up next is something good" but more often then not it's a no-go.
Yeah, but isnt that exactly how life, at some times, can be?
The whole "bad times ultimately followed by good times"-philosphy does not really relate to the real life that much.
Sure some people may have bad times and manage to resolve the issues to let good times follow...but hell, theres probably also millions of people that just stumble from one bad thing to another...
Martin ultimately is a cruel writer, yes. But life, at times, is just that - absolutely cruel.
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I haven't read the books in a while and I had a question concerning Varys. Are his motives to eventually get the Targaryens back to the throne, and that's why he and Illyrio wanted the war between the Lannisters and Starks to be delayed?
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On May 31 2011 01:47 happyness wrote:
I haven't read the books in a while and I had a question concerning Varys. Are his motives to eventually get the Targaryens back to the throne, and that's why he and Illyrio wanted the war between the Lannisters and Starks to be delayed?
Yes. As far as I know.
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On May 31 2011 01:45 Mattes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 01:34 zalz wrote:
Reading that reminds just how badly GRRM beats down on his characters. It's not even balanced at times, some characters just get to eat shit every chapter again and again. Your used to think "ooh something bad happend, so up next is something good" but more often then not it's a no-go.
Yeah, but isnt that exactly how life, at some times, can be? The whole "bad times ultimately followed by good times"-philosphy does not really relate to the real life that much. Sure some people may have bad times and manage to resolve the issues to let good times follow...but hell, theres probably also millions of people that just stumble from one bad thing to another... Martin ultimately is a cruel writer, yes. But life, at times, is just that - absolutely cruel.
My problem with Martin that if I wanted this kind of constant mindless slaughtering of everyone competent for reasons far beyond their control, I'd read Sophocles.
These books aren't good enough to be Tragedies and their not entertaining enough to be anything else.
They are however, very well written. I have to give GRRM points for sheer craftsmanship.
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On May 31 2011 01:45 Mattes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 01:34 zalz wrote:
Reading that reminds just how badly GRRM beats down on his characters. It's not even balanced at times, some characters just get to eat shit every chapter again and again. Your used to think "ooh something bad happend, so up next is something good" but more often then not it's a no-go.
Yeah, but isnt that exactly how life, at some times, can be? The whole "bad times ultimately followed by good times"-philosphy does not really relate to the real life that much. Sure some people may have bad times and manage to resolve the issues to let good times follow...but hell, theres probably also millions of people that just stumble from one bad thing to another... Martin ultimately is a cruel writer, yes. But life, at times, is just that - absolutely cruel.
Ooh i fully agree from a realistic standpoint it's spot on. Bad times get followed by worse times and people that don't deserve it get rich and live a life of joy whilst kind hearted people are faced with the worst of outcomes again and again.
But looking at it from a writer perspective it's unique. In the vast majority of stories the bad times (if there even are any) get followed by the big comeback. Rocky gets knocked out, trains, and comes back better then ever.
If a story even has a valley then it is often before the mountain.
Having been ingrained with such expectations it's incredibly entertaining to see a writer handle a more realistic approach wich breaks conventions and makes the twist constantly unexpected. Just like how you never know if a character lives or dies you also never know what the future holds because the story can just be stomping a character mercilessly for many chapters or even books without end. It makes the whole story a constant guessing game and all the more fun for it.
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@Geo.Rion
Could you please update us about your reading progress? I'd like to hear what you think about your latest happenings.
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Mindless slaughter? Come on. Yes some big characters die but its not every freaking one like Romeo and Juliet or whatever. You should never attach yourself to a single character in anything you read. Im pretty sure the remaining main characters like Jon, Dany and Tyrion are safe. I think people also misuse the word main character too much. Ned and Robb were key characters, but had very few POV chapters, so I'd be hesitant to label them as main characters. Same with Renly, Joffrey, etc.
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On May 31 2011 06:10 zimms wrote:
@Geo.Rion
Could you please update us about your reading progress? I'd like to hear what you think about your latest happenings.
I would as well like you to do this, GR
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My only problem with the way he kills off characters is that the deaths often entail uncharacteristic events. For example, Ned is betrayed by a man he knows he should never trust. His only loyalty to him is because of the woman that Littlefinger still loves. Did he really not reason that much through? The reason is because the author feels the need to kill him off to keep it interesting and different. Why not just have Ned die because of his honor or on the battlefield, why does it have to be through an uncharacteristic twist?
Same for Robb, who falls in love with some chick and by love I mean he had sex with her. Of course, he forgets the slight he did against one of his most important supporters. How is that characteristic for him? Well, the author wanted to have a blood orgy and Robb was the character he had decided to cause it. Wow, who would have seen that coming? Such a twist! Like Ned, why couldn't Robb lose a battle and be beheaded by the enemy? Why does he have to die in an underhanded way?
Robert died in a much more fitting way. It was because of his drinking and stupidity not some uncharacteristic action. If Ned/Robb/etc died because of characteristic actions that would be way more interesting. I mean we can accept that a dwarf like Tyrion survives battles against full grown knights through sheer luck, but we praise the same author who gives us deaths of two capable men because "no character is safe."
P.S. man are those books long -_-.
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On May 31 2011 13:40 justinpal wrote:
My only problem with the way he kills off characters is that the deaths often entail uncharacteristic events. For example, Ned is betrayed by a man he knows he should never trust. His only loyalty to him is because of the woman that Littlefinger still loves. Did he really not reason that much through? The reason is because the author feels the need to kill him off to keep it interesting and different. Why not just have Ned die because of his honor or on the battlefield, why does it have to be through an uncharacteristic twist?
Same for Robb, who falls in love with some chick and by love I mean he had sex with her. Of course, he forgets the slight he did against one of his most important supporters. How is that characteristic for him? Well, the author wanted to have a blood orgy and Robb was the character he had decided to cause it. Wow, who would have seen that coming? Such a twist! Like Ned, why couldn't Robb lose a battle and be beheaded by the enemy? Why does he have to die in an underhanded way?
Robert died in a much more fitting way. It was because of his drinking and stupidity not some uncharacteristic action. If Ned/Robb/etc died because of characteristic actions that would be way more interesting. I mean we can accept that a dwarf like Tyrion survives battles against full grown knights through sheer luck, but we praise the same author who gives us deaths of two capable men because "no character is safe."
P.S. man are those books long -_-.
Ultimately it's fiction and everything happens because the author wants it to. However, I don't feel either of the deaths you make a big deal of are actually out of character. Ned Stark dies because he trusts someone he shouldn't. He dies because his honor forbids him from being the underhanded sneaky bastard he would've had to stop Cersei/Joffrey from taking the throne. It was his love for his children that made him reveal too much and Sansa's stupidity that gave Cersei enough time to act decisively.
Robb is a king, sure, but he's also a teenager. Additionally he has the same unbowing honor code that his father has. Therefore when he falls in love and sleeps with Jeyne Westerling, his code of chivalry then bids him marry her, in spite of his promise to Walder Frey. Couple that with the Freys being duplicitous bastards in the first place and Roose Bolton being a backstabbing bastard and the red wedding is complete.
Oh, and why exactly would it be better to have everybody die a heroic death on the battlefield? I like the shock and horror of being executed for supposed treason and the terrible breach of hospitality and sacred vows that is the red wedding.
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On May 31 2011 13:40 justinpal wrote:
My only problem with the way he kills off characters is that the deaths often entail uncharacteristic events. For example, Ned is betrayed by a man he knows he should never trust. His only loyalty to him is because of the woman that Littlefinger still loves. Did he really not reason that much through? The reason is because the author feels the need to kill him off to keep it interesting and different. Why not just have Ned die because of his honor or on the battlefield, why does it have to be through an uncharacteristic twist?
Same for Robb, who falls in love with some chick and by love I mean he had sex with her. Of course, he forgets the slight he did against one of his most important supporters. How is that characteristic for him? Well, the author wanted to have a blood orgy and Robb was the character he had decided to cause it. Wow, who would have seen that coming? Such a twist! Like Ned, why couldn't Robb lose a battle and be beheaded by the enemy? Why does he have to die in an underhanded way?
Robert died in a much more fitting way. It was because of his drinking and stupidity not some uncharacteristic action. If Ned/Robb/etc died because of characteristic actions that would be way more interesting. I mean we can accept that a dwarf like Tyrion survives battles against full grown knights through sheer luck, but we praise the same author who gives us deaths of two capable men because "no character is safe."
P.S. man are those books long -_-.
Neither of those deaths is out of character.
Ned dies because of his honesty and his chivalry that keeps him from being a backstabbing bastard like 90% of king's landing. He tries to do the honourable thing but in the end that is exactly what makes him lose.
Robb dies in almost the exact way. He had sex with that girl but he also adhered to the same strict standards of honour that his father passed onto him. He felt obliged to marry her after having had sex with her, his code of honour demanded it. He knew he had insulted the Freys in doing so but he also knew he couldn't not marry her.
Both those characters end up dead for being bound by honour in a world that demands scheming to survive.
Had Robb or Ned died in a battlefield it would probably have caused me too shrug compared to how they died in the books. People die in battles, there isn't anything exciting or unexpected about that.
Finally you could not have Ned die on a battlefield because if he had been able to get away from king's landing he would have defeated the lannisters in battle since he would have joined up with Stannis. The story is completly different if you change anything about Ned's eventuall fate. It is the single most important event in setting up the following war.
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