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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 00:35 Geo.Rion wrote:
I cant believe this shit, i m at the 1/4th of the 3rd book and all the positive caracters are screwed over sooo badly it's not even funny. I liked the story cuz the balance of power was so fragile it could swing either way but now it needs a fucking chain of miracles to make things even again.
Where i'm at the story looks like this:
- 30k wildlings are about to storm The Wall
- White Walkers just attacked the ~300ish black brothers at the Fist
-The Greyjoys took several important strategical castles North
-Winterfell is in ashes and has no inhabitants
- the 2 youngest Starks are out in the wild basicly alone, though this is an improvement since their alegged beheadings
- beside the Greyjoys and the Wildlings, Starks have to face the combined power of King's Landing, Castlery Rock, Highgarden, Storm's End and Sunspear. (i'm not sure about the last one, but i understood they are with them as well). Against them, they have the North and probably the weakest of the 8 houses, the Tullys of Riverrun, what remained of those anyways. The Eyrie was afraid to join them when it was Tully+Stark vs Lannister, i dont see why would aid them now.
-if the gross outnumbering wont be enough, they actually lost the support of the Freys for absoultely no gain but a dozen swords which are more likely to kill Robb then to help him, which means even worse outnumbering and the ability to go back and settle things North, cuz they have no way to cross
- Their only asset vs the Lannisters, Jaime, has been set free. Best case scenario, they get the whiny Sansa back, though not fucking likely, since he said she'd marry s1 in Highgarden
- Arya just walked into some raiders of sort, AGAIN
- Jon Snow was forced to slay one of the coolest Black Brother and join the Wildlings
- Davos, just go arrested
-Tyrion, the only caracter who is on the winnig side right now, lost half his face, all his power and support he gathered and was threatened to not whore, and gained basickly nothing.
I dont give a fck abuot Danny.
So someone who read all of these books, just PM me please. Are things gonna get better for them, or should i quit reading this to not waste my time on a couple hundred more pages to find out how they fail even more and die one by one? I've been waiting some sort of upswing since the death of Ned Stark, yet it seems they are going even further down, and fast.
I want no major spoiler so i dont want to read the thread, someone please PM me..
Haha I understand you so much man... I was thinking the exact same thing reading book 3 and I'm pretty sure book 4 will suck for you just as it sucked for me (most of the PoV you seem to like are just not there anymore). People saying that what made SoIaF so good was martin's ability to kill off anyone are obviously wrong. What made Martin's work so good is his ability to describe an almost realistic world with deep storyline. What I liked so much are the legacy of every characters, all coming from famillies with great stories and that fit perfectly in a fantasy world where magic takes its time to rise. That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son. I think if Martin made a sole mystake, it's Dany. Dany is most likely one of the two main characters with Jon, but he took so long before developping her that I just thought she was useless. In T1 it took a third of the book before you just start to know who she is, and at first and for another third of the book, she is a little girl with almost no personality.
I agree that Dany's PoV is really terrible in the first half of the first book and it seems she's really boring, but from the death of Viserys and then the encounter with Mirri Maz Duur I start to really enjoy the Dany PoV. When eventually she starts conquering stuff it's just one big awesome rollercoaster ride  I am very much looking forward to what happens in DwD: I expect some terrible things, because she has made far too many enemies for that to continue happily 
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On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark.
I don't think Bran is fit to rule any more, but we still have Rickon to keep the Starks alive.
Rickon is wild and strong-willed even as a little kid, and being brought up by Osha should make him tough as nails.
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Sitting @brothers place and got nothing to do, so might aswell theorize a little bit about one thing that wasnt mentioned in this thread at least:
I'd like to talk about the "Dance of the Dragons" and its possible implications for the story.
We know, Martin isnt the kind of writer who creates background just for the sake of background, and most of his westerosi-history has proven to be analogous to certain happenings in the books.
Most of those familiar with all four books and a little bit of incentive to theorize about characters, relations etc. have been familiar with the R+L=J - theory.
I'll leave it at that, for I myself do think it most likely.
I am quite interested in those "tales of the past" martin created, and, with "A dance with dragons" around the corner, i more and more explored the possibility of a new "Dance of the dragons". (which, i admit, is, given to the simlilarity in naming, more than a broad hint)
Sure, it just might be a little story to fill space in an, otherwise maybe not that special chapter, but i dont know. Thats just not martin to be honest.
Reading that story, again and again, i ask myself: Is that a potential way martin could go with jon and dany?
What do you think?
On June 02 2011 22:02 Bagi wrote:
I don't think Bran is fit to rule any more, but we still have Rickon to keep the Starks alive.
Rickon is wild and strong-willed even as a little kid, and being brought up by Osha should make him tough as nails.
Well it may seem obvious that bran is not the person you would expect to rule on the outside.
But meh, perhaps its just me, but with everything that happens, i want to believe thats exactly why he, in the end, will end up there.
As to Rickon, i believe Martin himself kind of admitted through the books his mistake in creating such a young character. Theres a reason he's kind of gone for good up until this point. He is just, even though a stark by origian, not more than a little footnote in the story.
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On June 02 2011 22:07 Mattes wrote:Sitting @brothers place and got nothing to do, so might aswell theorize a little bit about one thing that wasnt mentioned in this thread at least: I'd like to talk about the "Dance of the Dragons" and its possible implications for the story. We know, Martin isnt the kind of writer who creates background just for the sake of background, and most of his westerosi-history has proven to be analogous to certain happenings in the books. Most of those familiar with all four books and a little bit of incentive to theorize about characters, relations etc. have been familiar with the R+L=J - theory. I'll leave it at that, for I myself do think it most likely. I am quite interested in those "tales of the past" martin created, and, with "A dance with dragons" around the corner, i more and more explored the possibility of a new "Dance of the dragons". (which, i admit, is, given to the simlilarity in naming, more than a broad hint) Sure, it just might be a little story to fill space in an, otherwise maybe not that special chapter, but i dont know. Thats just not martin to be honest. Reading that story, again and again, i ask myself: Is that a potential way martin could go with jon and dany? What do you think? Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 22:02 Bagi wrote:
I don't think Bran is fit to rule any more, but we still have Rickon to keep the Starks alive.
Rickon is wild and strong-willed even as a little kid, and being brought up by Osha should make him tough as nails. Well it may seem obvious that bran is not the person you would expect to rule on the outside. But meh, perhaps its just me, but with everything that happens, i want to believe thats exactly why he, in the end, will end up there. As to Rickon, i believe Martin himself kind of admitted through the books his mistake in creating such a young character. Theres a reason he's kind of gone for good up until this point. He is just, even though a stark by origian, not more than a little footnote in the story.
As i remember it, RR Martin stated that he created all kids 2 young.
The heir of winter fell atm is Bran, and in my fantasy he will see the end of the winter and rule Winterfell after he has awoken the dragon that sleeps underneat it.
Jon and Dany... the dragon has 3 heads RR said that they dont have to be targ. So i think John will be one of the dragon's heads. He will stop the others with dany and remain lord commander of the night watch.
As for the parents of john.... i would be dissapointed if john turns out to be a targ. He has stark written all over him, it would feel like watching an animated series where a dog eats hamburgers with a hippie.
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On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark.
Yeah I also prefer than Robb left no son, in this way he is just like Brandon (Ned older brother). But after Brandon's death, Ned took down the legacy and wage war against the mad king.
Bran and Rickon are in no situation to do so, they are alone, too young, winterfell is down, the Starks legacy is (at least for 2 books, AFFC and ADWD) almost finished. There is some kind of timing problem in the storyline at the moment. That's exactly what I was saying: Martin took a huge time to develop a certain number of houses and, as he mentionned in some interview, no house have yet to fall, BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic.
Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable.
Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so.
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On June 02 2011 22:26 betaV1.25 wrote:
As for the parents of john.... i would be dissapointed if john turns out to be a targ. He has stark written all over him, it would feel like watching an animated series where a dog eats hamburgers with a hippie.
He looks like a stark, he was raised by a stark and raised as a stark.
You're the man you were raised as, not inevitably the man your blood commands you to become.
(which in fact is the single point that bothers me with "my" theory above. jon does not strike me to be the man to war over the 7 kingdoms with dany (that is if dany does not change for the bad (and yeah, i seem to be one of the few to not like danys character that much ^^)
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On June 02 2011 22:34 Mattes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 22:26 betaV1.25 wrote:
As for the parents of john.... i would be dissapointed if john turns out to be a targ. He has stark written all over him, it would feel like watching an animated series where a dog eats hamburgers with a hippie. He looks like a stark, he was raised by a stark and raised as a stark. You're the man you were raised as, not inevitably the man your blood commands you to become. (which in fact is the single point that bothers me with "my" theory above. jon does not strike me to be the man to war over the 7 kingdoms with dany (that is if dany does not change for the bad (and yeah, i seem to be one of the few to not like danys character that much ^^)
He is not just raised as a stark, he has snow, he skin changes with a DIREWOLF. He never has any dragon dreams, No out of control rage and not a single, physical resemblance with the targs.
I am not saying its impossible, i am saying i would hate it.
Allso: in my perfect world he will not fight the other kingdoms with dany, Dany will land with her ball-less-bunch in the south and will just crush everyone on her way to the wall. Then she will form a union with jon.
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On June 02 2011 22:07 Mattes wrote:
As to Rickon, i believe Martin himself kind of admitted through the books his mistake in creating such a young character. Theres a reason he's kind of gone for good up until this point. He is just, even though a stark by origian, not more than a little footnote in the story.
Hadn't heard of that, kinda sucks tbh.
He could still work as an epilogue character, some years into the future after the series finish. But I guess that's wishful thinking.
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On June 02 2011 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark. Yeah I also prefer than Robb left no son, in this way he is just like Brandon (Ned older brother). But after Brandon's death, Ned took down the legacy and wage war against the mad king. Bran and Rickon are in no situation to do so, they are alone, too young, winterfell is down, the Starks legacy is (at least for 2 books, AFFC and ADWD) almost finished. There is some kind of timing problem in the storyline at the moment. That's exactly what I was saying: Martin took a huge time to develop a certain number of houses and, as he mentionned in some interview, no house have yet to fall, BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic. Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable. Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so.
Well for the outside world (I mean the population of Westeros and not us readers) Bran and Rickon are dead and imposter Arya represents the Stark line. So in that scenario a reappearance of Sansa would mean that she is the lady regent of Winterfell.
By marrying her to the heir of Robert Arryn she would have the Vale, the North and the Riverlands (as Petyr is Lord of Harrenhall and Riverrun is no longer the seat of power there) behind her. That should be a force to reckon with - until Sansa ruins everything, as she always fails to deliver :D
Did I mention that the small lord from the Fingers is in fact a genius ?
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On June 02 2011 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark. BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic. Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable. Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so.
Most likely not (but on the other hand who wouldve thought reading through GoT that he'd kill of ned?
Martin once said the series might come off as a stark-saga at the beginning, but in its core, is not.
As to "fallen houses".
One gotta remember that he still "only" killed of ned and robb.
Bran, arya (who at one point will come back to westeros (and most likely to do what you hint at, kill off someone important), sansa, undead-cat (lol) are still "in the game".
Tbh, martin does SEEM predictable. But does he really? Bealors sept, red wedding, jaimes hand...
Lots of people have expectations as how to the story MUST end.
I must say i myself have come to the conclusion that the real ending of the series, in not really something that interests me all that much, and never has been.
On June 02 2011 22:44 betaV1.25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 22:34 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 22:26 betaV1.25 wrote:
As for the parents of john.... i would be dissapointed if john turns out to be a targ. He has stark written all over him, it would feel like watching an animated series where a dog eats hamburgers with a hippie. He looks like a stark, he was raised by a stark and raised as a stark. You're the man you were raised as, not inevitably the man your blood commands you to become. (which in fact is the single point that bothers me with "my" theory above. jon does not strike me to be the man to war over the 7 kingdoms with dany (that is if dany does not change for the bad (and yeah, i seem to be one of the few to not like danys character that much ^^) He is not just raised as a stark, he has snow, he skin changes with a DIREWOLF. He never has any dragon dreams, No out of control rage and not a single, physical resemblance with the targs. I am not saying its impossible, i am saying i would hate it. Allso: in my perfect world he will not fight the other kingdoms with dany, Dany will land with her ball-less-bunch in the south and will just crush everyone on her way to the wall. Then she will form a union with jon.
I've grown accustomed to the thought of jon really getting the best of both worlds tbh, a rhaegar personality brought up by stark standards, it just sounds right to me.
btw. In my perfect world, dany would get crushed doing so...i dunno, its about time for a setback :/
(yeah i know ... - plus i just dont see her claim for the throne (and we're back to the "Dance of dragons"-story, -> ("Since the Dance, House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations"))
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Could you please clarify how he has a Rhaegar personality that i cannot link to being good stark?
Allso still no TOJ in the HBO series.... this would be a HUGE cut in the story if jon was a targ.
As i am sure you would agree that the ToJ is basicly the bread and butter of the theory.
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On June 02 2011 23:07 Mattes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark. BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic. Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable. Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so. Most likely not (but on the other hand who wouldve thought reading through GoT that he'd kill of ned? Martin once said the series might come off as a stark-saga at the beginning, but in its core, is not. As to "fallen houses". One gotta remember that he still "only" killed of ned and robb. Bran, arya (who at one point will come back to westeros (and most likely to do what you hint at, kill off someone important), sansa, undead-cat (lol) are still "in the game". Tbh, martin does SEEM predictable. But does he really? Bealors sept, red wedding, jaimes hand... Lots of people have expectations as how to the story MUST end. I must say i myself have come to the conclusion that the real ending of the series, in not really something that interests me all that much, and never has been. Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 22:44 betaV1.25 wrote:On June 02 2011 22:34 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 22:26 betaV1.25 wrote:
As for the parents of john.... i would be dissapointed if john turns out to be a targ. He has stark written all over him, it would feel like watching an animated series where a dog eats hamburgers with a hippie. He looks like a stark, he was raised by a stark and raised as a stark. You're the man you were raised as, not inevitably the man your blood commands you to become. (which in fact is the single point that bothers me with "my" theory above. jon does not strike me to be the man to war over the 7 kingdoms with dany (that is if dany does not change for the bad (and yeah, i seem to be one of the few to not like danys character that much ^^) He is not just raised as a stark, he has snow, he skin changes with a DIREWOLF. He never has any dragon dreams, No out of control rage and not a single, physical resemblance with the targs. I am not saying its impossible, i am saying i would hate it. Allso: in my perfect world he will not fight the other kingdoms with dany, Dany will land with her ball-less-bunch in the south and will just crush everyone on her way to the wall. Then she will form a union with jon. I've grown accustomed to the thought of jon really getting the best of both worlds tbh, a rhaegar personality brought up by stark standards, it just sounds right to me. btw. In my perfect world, dany would get crushed doing so...i dunno, its about time for a setback :/ (yeah i know ... - plus i just dont see her claim for the throne (and we're back to the "Dance of dragons"-story, -> ("Since the Dance, House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations"))
Well, I don't really care about the end of the series, but I am one of the people out there that will most likely let SoIaF down if there are no Starks in it anymore. I started to read book 3 around 2004, then just forgot about the saga because of martin's habit to let lannisters survive with small injuries each times. Took out more than six years to open book 4 out of desperation and hated it (just don't care about cersei and jaime...).
At least Dany started to became an interesting character after Drogo's death, more or less the last character remaining that I like with the starks. I like Tyrion too in fact.
It's like Martin makes you grow some kind of fidelity to the PoV characters during the first two books and let you with nothing afterwards.
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On June 02 2011 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark. Yeah I also prefer than Robb left no son, in this way he is just like Brandon (Ned older brother). But after Brandon's death, Ned took down the legacy and wage war against the mad king. Bran and Rickon are in no situation to do so, they are alone, too young, winterfell is down, the Starks legacy is (at least for 2 books, AFFC and ADWD) almost finished. There is some kind of timing problem in the storyline at the moment. That's exactly what I was saying: Martin took a huge time to develop a certain number of houses and, as he mentionned in some interview, no house have yet to fall, BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic. Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable. Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so.
Actually the house nearest to falling is Arryn. Just Robert Arryn alive and he's poor of health and weakminded besides! At least bran has his mind
The Tullys aren't doing too well either, by the way
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On June 02 2011 23:16 betaV1.25 wrote:
Could you please clarify how he has a Rhaegar personality that i cannot link to being good stark?
Well its certainly not a fact but just the impression i have of him.
Rhaegar was supposed to be very intelligent, exceed expectations at everything he touches, but the exact opposite to his mad father.
(if we assume R+L=J as a given fact, rhaegar was exactly the person lyanna stark was attracted to (who herself is depicted as someone who sees through people (see her opinion of robert)).
Sure, jon, growing up as the bastard he thinks he is, doesnt seem very rhaegar-ish, but going to the wall, to become lord commander in such a short time, i myself cant NOT see the immediate similarities..
But yeah, still, its all from my perspective, which strongly builds upon the belief of him not being neds son.
Allso still no TOJ in the HBO series.... this would be a HUGE cut in the story if jon was a targ.
As i am sure you would agree that the ToJ is basicly the bread and butter of the theory.
Agreed, and i still am sad they left that out.
It wouldnt even have been that hard to film (you need 3 actors for the kingsguard member (which i admit is not an easy task, because two of them are expected to be some of the most heroic knights ever), but as his dream is described, his comrades as shadow of a past...this scene had soooo much potential.
On the other hand, the series cleary shows the weakpoint of this medium. Up to this point in the book we had countless "promise me, ned"-points, none of them to make it into the series.
If there is one point that the series fails to show in ned, its his guilt he carries around for more than a decade.
So yeah, i dont know if the two people mostly responsible for the show know more than we do, but still, that scene was one of my favorite in the whole book. :/
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On June 02 2011 23:16 betaV1.25 wrote:
Could you please clarify how he has a Rhaegar personality that i cannot link to being good stark?
Allso still no TOJ in the HBO series.... this would be a HUGE cut in the story if jon was a targ.
As i am sure you would agree that the ToJ is basicly the bread and butter of the theory.
Does't Ned talk about it when he's in his cell? Where he wishes Jon were there so he could talk to him. So it could come up in episode 8, potentially.
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On June 02 2011 22:52 Damian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark. Yeah I also prefer than Robb left no son, in this way he is just like Brandon (Ned older brother). But after Brandon's death, Ned took down the legacy and wage war against the mad king. Bran and Rickon are in no situation to do so, they are alone, too young, winterfell is down, the Starks legacy is (at least for 2 books, AFFC and ADWD) almost finished. There is some kind of timing problem in the storyline at the moment. That's exactly what I was saying: Martin took a huge time to develop a certain number of houses and, as he mentionned in some interview, no house have yet to fall, BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic. Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable. Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so. Well for the outside world (I mean the population of Westeros and not us readers) Bran and Rickon are dead and imposter Arya represents the Stark line. So in that scenario a reappearance of Sansa would mean that she is the lady regent of Winterfell. By marrying her to the heir of Robert Arryn she would have the Vale, the North and the Riverlands (as Petyr is Lord of Harrenhall and Riverrun is no longer the seat of power there) behind her. That should be a force to reckon with - until Sansa ruins everything, as she always fails to deliver :D Did I mention that the small lord from the Fingers is in fact a genius ?
Wait what, lol? Haven't read the books, but I love spoilers....
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Yes, I am still hoping we see the flashback in ep8 or 9 (since I believe his execution will be at the end of ep9). When I heard about the series out of all the scenes from the books, the ToJ was the only one I didn't want cut.
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On June 02 2011 23:42 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 22:52 Damian wrote:On June 02 2011 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark. Yeah I also prefer than Robb left no son, in this way he is just like Brandon (Ned older brother). But after Brandon's death, Ned took down the legacy and wage war against the mad king. Bran and Rickon are in no situation to do so, they are alone, too young, winterfell is down, the Starks legacy is (at least for 2 books, AFFC and ADWD) almost finished. There is some kind of timing problem in the storyline at the moment. That's exactly what I was saying: Martin took a huge time to develop a certain number of houses and, as he mentionned in some interview, no house have yet to fall, BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic. Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable. Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so. Well for the outside world (I mean the population of Westeros and not us readers) Bran and Rickon are dead and imposter Arya represents the Stark line. So in that scenario a reappearance of Sansa would mean that she is the lady regent of Winterfell. By marrying her to the heir of Robert Arryn she would have the Vale, the North and the Riverlands (as Petyr is Lord of Harrenhall and Riverrun is no longer the seat of power there) behind her. That should be a force to reckon with - until Sansa ruins everything, as she always fails to deliver :D Did I mention that the small lord from the Fingers is in fact a genius ? Wait what, lol? Haven't read the books, but I love spoilers....
Are you in a wrong topic again?
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On June 02 2011 23:16 betaV1.25 wrote:
Could you please clarify how he has a Rhaegar personality that i cannot link to being good stark?
Allso still no TOJ in the HBO series.... this would be a HUGE cut in the story if jon was a targ.
As i am sure you would agree that the ToJ is basicly the bread and butter of the theory.
The tower of joy isn't the only hint.
Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyana Stark but this was never confirmed. All we know is the she left with him, wether that was by force or free will is never clarified. It makes sense that if they both ran off together then things could be explained as him kidnapping her since nobody actually knew of their relationship.
We know that Rhaegar crowned her as queen of love and beauty after winning a tournament, a peculiar act considering one would almost always give that to their wife, but he did not.
Lyana was promised to Robert but from the few snippits we get, we never get the impression that she actually loved him.
With Rhaegar giving her the crown it seems more then obvious that he loved her, why else commit such an act?
I think it would be absolutely perfect if Lyana Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen loved each other. Robert began a war to regain the woman he loved, the woman that never loved him and had run off with the man she truly loved.
To me there really isn't any possible doubt. It seems utterly bizare for Rhaegar to just kidnap her because he felt like it, from what he learn of him he wasn't exactly an impulsive person that just did what he felt like.
It explains everything perfectly.
Why did Rhaegar crown her? He loved her.
Why did Rhaegar take her? They left together to the tower
What happened at the tower? Lyana died in childbirth and Jon was born.
Why must Ned keep it a secret? Because Robert hated any and all Targaryans, he would have had Jon killed.
Even the revelation is allready set up. We have the children of Howland Reed traveling with Bran, the only person that still knows what happened at the tower of Joy.
This story seems much more GRRM like then "Rhaegar was an evil moustache twirling villan that wanted to capture the fair maiden and lock her in a tower".
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On June 02 2011 23:50 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 23:42 Sm3agol wrote:On June 02 2011 22:52 Damian wrote:On June 02 2011 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On June 02 2011 21:30 Mattes wrote:On June 02 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
That's why I hated when Robb dies, way more than when Ned dies: Nedd let Robb behind him, so the Stark's are not over... Robb let nothing behind him, not even a son.
Well..but thats just how the saga "rolls". Remember Aemons story? People die, and they dont leave behind a legacy, nor a heir. tbh i wouldve hated it if robb left behind a son, for i really like the thought of bran as the true heir of house stark. Yeah I also prefer than Robb left no son, in this way he is just like Brandon (Ned older brother). But after Brandon's death, Ned took down the legacy and wage war against the mad king. Bran and Rickon are in no situation to do so, they are alone, too young, winterfell is down, the Starks legacy is (at least for 2 books, AFFC and ADWD) almost finished. There is some kind of timing problem in the storyline at the moment. That's exactly what I was saying: Martin took a huge time to develop a certain number of houses and, as he mentionned in some interview, no house have yet to fall, BUT the only house who is the closest to fall is the MAIN house (Stark) and it will most likely fall without killing anyone, which is pretty pathetic. Of course, in ADWD, house Stark will rise again, with Bran and Jon most likely, but at this point, Martin has gone too far and everything is just too predictable. Or will Martin have the balls to just destroy house Stark ? I don't think so. Well for the outside world (I mean the population of Westeros and not us readers) Bran and Rickon are dead and imposter Arya represents the Stark line. So in that scenario a reappearance of Sansa would mean that she is the lady regent of Winterfell. By marrying her to the heir of Robert Arryn she would have the Vale, the North and the Riverlands (as Petyr is Lord of Harrenhall and Riverrun is no longer the seat of power there) behind her. That should be a force to reckon with - until Sansa ruins everything, as she always fails to deliver :D Did I mention that the small lord from the Fingers is in fact a genius ? Wait what, lol? Haven't read the books, but I love spoilers.... Are you in a wrong topic again?
By that I meant.....I want to know what's up with Arya, as she's one of my fav chars atm.
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EPT
