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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On November 27 2012 05:56 EleanorRIgby wrote:
jesus a lot of the humans on this show are becoming worse then the zombies lol
I know what you mean, but if you think about it on a base level, the zombies are no different to rabid animals now. No sentient thought (so we believe), so you can't exactly errr "blame" a zombie for anything, whereas as Humans we have the capability to choose what we do. So humans have always been worse than zombies.
Hell the characters in the show even say it, zombies easier to deal with than humans 
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On November 27 2012 03:04 trinxified wrote:
If the Governor didn't really rape Maggie, then what was the point of asking her to undress? It didn't really make any sense to me.
I think to scare her and especially for the part when he brought her to Glen. The Governor wanted him to think she was raped, so he would give up information. I would definatly think so if they would bring in my girlfriend half naked, in a world where their aren't that much females left (and many other reasons).
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About Governor/Comics
+ Show Spoiler +
Since the first moment we saw the Governor and Michonne together I was curious about that brutal rape scene. When Maggie was captured with Glen in the TV series it got me to thinking whether we'd see a rape on basic cable, with Maggie instead of Michonne. The fact that they did not do so in this case was in stark contrast to the amount of gore they show. But zombie gore has a fairly long film history, whereas rape scenes are still almost entirely confined to independent cinema.
The Governor's abominable treatment of Michonne leads to his massive disfigurement, which makes the attack on the prison even more epic/suprising. I can't imagine that they would go through with Gov/Michonne rape at this point. They've set up her distate for the man, and something will certainly spark it. Because the Gov is specifically mentioned as a pretty boy, I would imagine they will keep in his maiming. Perhaps Andrea and Michonne will both do it?
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On November 27 2012 07:05 sharkeyanti wrote:About Governor/Comics + Show Spoiler +
Since the first moment we saw the Governor and Michonne together I was curious about that brutal rape scene. When Maggie was captured with Glen in the TV series it got me to thinking whether we'd see a rape on basic cable, with Maggie instead of Michonne. The fact that they did not do so in this case was in stark contrast to the amount of gore they show. But zombie gore has a fairly long film history, whereas rape scenes are still almost entirely confined to independent cinema.
The Governor's abominable treatment of Michonne leads to his massive disfigurement, which makes the attack on the prison even more epic/suprising. I can't imagine that they would go through with Gov/Michonne rape at this point. They've set up her distate for the man, and something will certainly spark it. Because the Gov is specifically mentioned as a pretty boy, I would imagine they will keep in his maiming. Perhaps Andrea and Michonne will both do it?
The Wire Spoilers within
+ Show Spoiler +
Rape is basically a no go, if it is done it is implied or it is done by complete lunatics/psychos(which is not how it works in real life, in real life rape/sexual assault happens to you by friends/family/people you know, not crazy people in the park or dark alleyways).
Also once you show rape, most people can't relate/connect to the character who raped someone in some way, this is one of the reasons why The Wire never had a rape scene, since they were trying to show the side of the young men in the gang/drug culture, not just the cops, Wire spoiler, .................When Bodie dies I freaking cried like a little girl, I doubt I could have the same feelings for Bodie if he was shown raping/assaulting girls throughout the show. Despite rape/sexual assault being a huge problem in Baltimore it is not an issue in the show at all. I know a ton of people dislike the Governor, but look 5 posts above me and you will find people defending his treatment of Maggie, "he didn't take it to the next level, so it's ok", obviously people still connect/reason/understand his actions in some way, even actions which I find revolting and disturbing, so basically you can't have him raping people, cause if he did, then he would be a psycho, etc.(You'd think keeping his daughter/niece around as a pet and combing her hair, and keeping zombie heads in fistanks would do it, the guy has clearly lost it imo)
During an apocalypse/breakdown of society, you would probably see a ton of rape, and the fact we haven't seen any, only a few instances implied/threatened if i recall correctly is just because it's on T.V
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On November 27 2012 07:05 sharkeyanti wrote:About Governor/Comics + Show Spoiler +
Since the first moment we saw the Governor and Michonne together I was curious about that brutal rape scene. When Maggie was captured with Glen in the TV series it got me to thinking whether we'd see a rape on basic cable, with Maggie instead of Michonne. The fact that they did not do so in this case was in stark contrast to the amount of gore they show. But zombie gore has a fairly long film history, whereas rape scenes are still almost entirely confined to independent cinema.
The Governor's abominable treatment of Michonne leads to his massive disfigurement, which makes the attack on the prison even more epic/suprising. I can't imagine that they would go through with Gov/Michonne rape at this point. They've set up her distate for the man, and something will certainly spark it. Because the Gov is specifically mentioned as a pretty boy, I would imagine they will keep in his maiming. Perhaps Andrea and Michonne will both do it?
Isn't it because violence/blood is more accepted in American television than sex?
I heard something like EU TV gets away with sex and America with violence.
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On November 27 2012 07:29 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:05 sharkeyanti wrote:About Governor/Comics + Show Spoiler +
Since the first moment we saw the Governor and Michonne together I was curious about that brutal rape scene. When Maggie was captured with Glen in the TV series it got me to thinking whether we'd see a rape on basic cable, with Maggie instead of Michonne. The fact that they did not do so in this case was in stark contrast to the amount of gore they show. But zombie gore has a fairly long film history, whereas rape scenes are still almost entirely confined to independent cinema.
The Governor's abominable treatment of Michonne leads to his massive disfigurement, which makes the attack on the prison even more epic/suprising. I can't imagine that they would go through with Gov/Michonne rape at this point. They've set up her distate for the man, and something will certainly spark it. Because the Gov is specifically mentioned as a pretty boy, I would imagine they will keep in his maiming. Perhaps Andrea and Michonne will both do it?
Isn't it because violence/blood is more accepted in American television than sex? I heard something like EU TV gets away with sex and America with violence.
yes that's part of the reason, but you see a growing amount of sex/boobs/etc in T.V. and movies in America , Rape is a no go though.
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On November 27 2012 07:27 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:05 sharkeyanti wrote:About Governor/Comics + Show Spoiler +
Since the first moment we saw the Governor and Michonne together I was curious about that brutal rape scene. When Maggie was captured with Glen in the TV series it got me to thinking whether we'd see a rape on basic cable, with Maggie instead of Michonne. The fact that they did not do so in this case was in stark contrast to the amount of gore they show. But zombie gore has a fairly long film history, whereas rape scenes are still almost entirely confined to independent cinema.
The Governor's abominable treatment of Michonne leads to his massive disfigurement, which makes the attack on the prison even more epic/suprising. I can't imagine that they would go through with Gov/Michonne rape at this point. They've set up her distate for the man, and something will certainly spark it. Because the Gov is specifically mentioned as a pretty boy, I would imagine they will keep in his maiming. Perhaps Andrea and Michonne will both do it?
The Wire Spoilers within + Show Spoiler +
Rape is basically a no go, if it is done it is implied or it is done by complete lunatics/psychos(which is not how it works in real life, in real life rape/sexual assault happens to you by friends/family/people you know, not crazy people in the park or dark alleyways).
Also once you show rape, most people can't relate/connect to the character who raped someone in some way, this is one of the reasons why The Wire never had a rape scene, since they were trying to show the side of the young men in the gang/drug culture, not just the cops, Wire spoiler, .................When Bodie dies I freaking cried like a little girl, I doubt I could have the same feelings for Bodie if he was shown raping/assaulting girls throughout the show. Despite rape/sexual assault being a huge problem in Baltimore it is not an issue in the show at all. I know a ton of people dislike the Governor, but look 5 posts above me and you will find people defending his treatment of Maggie, "he didn't take it to the next level, so it's ok", obviously people still connect/reason/understand his actions in some way, even actions which I find revolting and disturbing, so basically you can't have him raping people, cause if he did, then he would be a psycho, etc.(You'd think keeping his daughter/niece around as a pet and combing her hair, and keeping zombie heads in fistanks would do it, the guy has clearly lost it imo)
During an apocalypse/breakdown of society, you would probably see a ton of rape, and the fact we haven't seen any, only a few instances implied/threatened if i recall correctly is just because it's on T.V
Pretty much this. Rape turns a character into pure evil, more so than murder, even. The Governor would lose all the mystery about how much of a lunatic he really is, and we'd immediately stop caring about his motives, etc.
Similarly, you never see even the most evil villains torture cute, innocent animals.
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On November 26 2012 17:55 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 17:41 abominare wrote:On November 26 2012 17:33 p4NDemik wrote:On November 26 2012 17:26 goldspoon wrote:
Don't any of you think that the reason the scientist and governor are so concerned about the experiment is partly due to the governor still having hope for curing or bringing back his daughter? I havnt read the comics so this might be actual hints we will see. Brilliant observation about the character's motives. I think you just identified the Governor's motives. As for the scientist dude it seems like he's just naturally inquisitive and submissive to the Governor's will. He could probably care less out the Governor's kid specifically, he just wants to learn more and feel like he's making a difference that way because he seems likely to be utterly helpless beyond the confines of Woodbury. I still think its pretty dick that andrea sat through an entire explanation about the disease from a cdc professional who had spent the last several months searching for a cure with advanced tools, and the only thing she can tell this poor lost amateur scientist guy about the disease is "dey turn to monsterzz! haahaha yeah it's pretty funny she doesn't mention that, but I find it not that unbelievable that she would think first about Amy and the others she loved that died, rather than the CDC. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 16:39 killa_robot wrote:On November 26 2012 14:37 p4NDemik wrote:This episode was great in a lot of ways imo, but also had some very annoying pitfalls. I thought the torture scene between Merle and Glenn was good on a whole. The dialogue in the actual interrogation was kind of meh, but the zombie-torture and ensuing fight was a pretty entertaining scenario. The characters in this show haven't faced such dire circumstances against biters since Merle was handcuffed in season one, and its scenes like this that really put a charge into me as a viewer, seeing the human spirit fight bitterly for survival. Having a gun/crossbow and large melee weapons while completely unrestrained when fighting zombies has gotten pretty stale (and the show has relied too much upon this type of combat imo). Its good to see this type of near-hopeless scenario make a return. It all happened so quick, I didn't see how Glenn's feet were freed though nor do I recall in what method they were restrained. Was his leg taped to the chair leg initially? Something about this didn't sit right with me after the scene was over, but I'm guessing I just missed something. Regardless, the scene was still thrilling. Maggie's torture I'm a bit torn on. This directly relates to the comic though so I'll expand within the spoiler. + Show Spoiler [Comic Talk] +This scene seems to be the obvious stand-in for Michonne's rape scene in the comics. Having Maggie as the victim here is readily understandable, so I have no problems with it not being Michonne in that room as it simply wouldn't make sense considering how the season has played out up until now. Now, I'm torn about the show chickening out in a sense. As an adult who is prepared for adult content, who has seen rape scenes in shows like The Sopranos and Mad Men (I think? Not positive if the sexual encounter I'm remembering was or not, I just remember the guy being a complete fucking douchenozzle) I feel the most likely course of events would have included the Governor raping Maggie. So I'm a bit annoyed at what happened from the standpoint TWD producing material that feels real.
That said, the realist in me likes the compromise they reached here. The audience is not entirely mature enough to watch that kind of a scene. There was still an element of psychological rape to what the governor did. The repugnant nature of the act is not lessened by not taking it to its logical conclusion. They did the responsible thing here even if it isn't the most artistically honest thing. Those two scenes were the most gripping parts of the show. Its a bit of a shame that TWD producers didn't intensify the effect on the audience by leaving Glenn and Maggie's fates in the balance longer. I.E. they did the right thing by opening up the episode with Glenn's torture. I would have had the Governor involved with it sooner, and had him walk into the room with Maggie, then cut scene before the episode continued at the prison. Let the viewer's imagination run wild for 30 or 40 minutes before closing with Maggie's interrogation and then the combined interrogation. Instead they chose to accelerate things a bit too fast in the prison, which threw things off, considering they had decided to close with the preparation of the infiltration. I really didn't like this. While the show has plodded along too slow in the past, they completely hurtled all the issues with trust surrounding Michonne and Rick's group. Michonne no doubt heard stories about all these people from Andrea, but it isn't in her nature to trust them so quickly. We're to believe the same woman that bitched and moaned for episodes about Woodbury and the Governor will lead an attack/infiltration alongside prison survivors so quickly? I don't know it just didn't sit right with me. That's about it. Overall a solid episode. If nothing else I think everyone can say with conviction that this season is much stronger thus far than season two was at this point. Probably hasn't improved enough to receive award nominations or anything, but I can say I don't think they are totally screwing up this arc of the story. It's different thus far but its still good. Looking forward to next week. p.s. Don't know where to inject this into the above commentary so I'll leave this here. I'm digging the blood is thicker than water angle they have going with Daryl and Merle right now. Brings a whole new dynamic to this story that the comic never had. The Governor questioning Merle's loyalty was pretty cool, though not delivered how I imagined. Will either brother defect? Will they betray those they've lived with through all the trauma in TWD's world? I can't wait to find out. Merle was a real cunt back in season one, not a favorite character of mine, but he's very useful right now to further enhance the intrigue around Daryl so for that I thank him. I don't think Glen's feet were ever tied. Kind of bad on Merle's part, but I don't think he expected Glen to ever really try anything. I really enjoyed when he fought the walker. Well, Michonne did willingly go to the prison, which I think says a lot. We have no reason to believe that she completely trusts the group, just enough that she knows their common goal will lead them to cooperate for now. She and Andrea were also taken by force and kept against their will in Woodbury, so the two situations aren't really similar. I think no rape was fine and you're falling back a bit much on the comics there. He certainly could have raped her, and it somewhat looked like he was leading to that, but I felt it was equally likely he wouldn't. I think when Maggie sort of submitted and said he could do what he wanted, he realized there wasn't much point (besides the sex, and he already has Andrea for that). I suppose there may be an argument that he is so desensitized he feels there is no reason to rape her, but settle for a show of dominance. I just had less faith that some semblance of respect for human dignity remains within the TV version of the governor. The bead I had on him was that the only person that he truly cared about (albeit in a twisted way) is his dead daughter. He gives no shits about Andrea, she's a play thing he's using in an attempt to dull his agony or feel something in place of nothing (this much can't be denied imo). Regardless I completely agree that they did the right thing by depicting it the way they did considering it is non-pay-pay-per-view cable TV. Put this show on HBO or Showtime, I could see those involved with the show taking things to the next level though. There is precedent and it undeniably ups the ante concerning the upcoming struggle between the two camps.
I thought someone else pointed out that Andrea looks like his late wife (in a family photo we saw he had), and that he was pretty much just projecting her image onto Andrea.
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On November 27 2012 07:38 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:27 BlueBird. wrote:On November 27 2012 07:05 sharkeyanti wrote:About Governor/Comics + Show Spoiler +
Since the first moment we saw the Governor and Michonne together I was curious about that brutal rape scene. When Maggie was captured with Glen in the TV series it got me to thinking whether we'd see a rape on basic cable, with Maggie instead of Michonne. The fact that they did not do so in this case was in stark contrast to the amount of gore they show. But zombie gore has a fairly long film history, whereas rape scenes are still almost entirely confined to independent cinema.
The Governor's abominable treatment of Michonne leads to his massive disfigurement, which makes the attack on the prison even more epic/suprising. I can't imagine that they would go through with Gov/Michonne rape at this point. They've set up her distate for the man, and something will certainly spark it. Because the Gov is specifically mentioned as a pretty boy, I would imagine they will keep in his maiming. Perhaps Andrea and Michonne will both do it?
The Wire Spoilers within + Show Spoiler +
Rape is basically a no go, if it is done it is implied or it is done by complete lunatics/psychos(which is not how it works in real life, in real life rape/sexual assault happens to you by friends/family/people you know, not crazy people in the park or dark alleyways).
Also once you show rape, most people can't relate/connect to the character who raped someone in some way, this is one of the reasons why The Wire never had a rape scene, since they were trying to show the side of the young men in the gang/drug culture, not just the cops, Wire spoiler, .................When Bodie dies I cried a ton, I doubt I could have the same feelings for Bodie if he was shown raping/assaulting girls throughout the show. Despite rape/sexual assault being a huge problem in Baltimore it is not an issue in the show at all. I know a ton of people dislike the Governor, but look 5 posts above me and you will find people defending his treatment of Maggie, "he didn't take it to the next level, so it's ok", obviously people still connect/reason/understand his actions in some way, even actions which I find revolting and disturbing, so basically you can't have him raping people, cause if he did, then he would be a psycho, etc.(You'd think keeping his daughter/niece around as a pet and combing her hair, and keeping zombie heads in fistanks would do it, the guy has clearly lost it imo)
During an apocalypse/breakdown of society, you would probably see a ton of rape, and the fact we haven't seen any, only a few instances implied/threatened if i recall correctly is just because it's on T.V
Pretty much this. Rape turns a character into pure evil, more so than murder, even. The Governor would lose all the mystery about how much of a lunatic he really is, and we'd immediately stop caring about his motives, etc. Similarly, you never see even the most evil villains torture cute, innocent animals.
Umm delete this post please, Idk how it got posted 0.o, did not even hit quote/reply.
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On November 27 2012 06:52 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 06:47 Nisyax wrote:On November 27 2012 06:01 Leth0 wrote:
It was kinda funny how Rick and Co. busted into that guys shack, which didn't wake him up. Yet as soon as they take his blanket he's all up and alert, brandishing his shotgun. I was more concerned with his proximity to the town yet him still being in the shack.. I suppose they explain this by saying 1) the guy is a bit of a hermit, 2) He lived in the zone described by Woodbury-ites as "the red zone" where they don't go, 3) Rick and the group just haven't stumbled across his shack yet.
Didn't they stop the car a mile distance from Woodbury? So I suppose the hermit shack is somewhere within a mile radius. Yes obviously there could be reasons made, but it's a bit odd imo
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We don't really know how much close Michonne and Andrea are...
I mean, when Michonne left Andrea, she wasn't 100% sure Woodbury was that evil, but after being chased...
I think Michonne wants to "rescue" Andrea now, and that is why she looked out for the prison guys, because she knew they would want to rescue their friends too and this could help her with Andrea.
Also, I don't think Rick knows that Michonne was with Andrea, I believe she never mentioned her.
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On November 27 2012 06:55 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 03:04 trinxified wrote:
If the Governor didn't really rape Maggie, then what was the point of asking her to undress? It didn't really make any sense to me. I think to scare her and especially for the part when he brought her to Glen. The Governor wanted him to think she was raped, so he would give up information. I would definatly think so if they would bring in my girlfriend half naked, in a world where their aren't that much females left (and many other reasons).
You don't have to complete the act of rape to emotionally scar someone. Just putting her in that situation, shit just making her undress in front of him while he stares with a smirk on his face, the sheer THOUGHT of rape, being THAT close, having her bent over him, that is soul crushing. People who keep saying 'what's the point' obviously don't understand what goes through the mind of someone who's in that situation, or have no empathy.
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On November 27 2012 06:52 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 06:47 Nisyax wrote:On November 27 2012 06:01 Leth0 wrote:
It was kinda funny how Rick and Co. busted into that guys shack, which didn't wake him up. Yet as soon as they take his blanket he's all up and alert, brandishing his shotgun. I was more concerned with his proximity to the town yet him still being in the shack.. I suppose they explain this by saying 1) the guy is a bit of a hermit, 2) He lived in the zone described by Woodbury-ites as "the red zone" where they don't go, 3) Rick and the group just haven't stumbled across his shack yet.
Well he's obviously very good about just laying completely still in his bed, even if someone from woodbury did stumble across it somehow (they seem to predominantly stay on roads so they can stay in their cars unless they're chasing someone..) they might just take it for an abandoned shack and leave it alone.
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I can't help but find what Merle tried to do to Glenn orders of magnitude worse than psychologically torturing Maggie with rape -- or even if he actually did rape Maggie. She'd be tied up in the other room and forced to hear Glenn devoured for the next 10 minutes before he finally died/slipped unconscious.
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So, was the hermit unaware of the zombie apocalypse? His house was boarded, and he had a shotgun by his bed, yet he still believes the police force and therefore society is still intact?
If so, how...?
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On November 27 2012 08:57 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 06:52 p4NDemik wrote:On November 27 2012 06:47 Nisyax wrote:On November 27 2012 06:01 Leth0 wrote:
It was kinda funny how Rick and Co. busted into that guys shack, which didn't wake him up. Yet as soon as they take his blanket he's all up and alert, brandishing his shotgun. I was more concerned with his proximity to the town yet him still being in the shack.. I suppose they explain this by saying 1) the guy is a bit of a hermit, 2) He lived in the zone described by Woodbury-ites as "the red zone" where they don't go, 3) Rick and the group just haven't stumbled across his shack yet. Well he's obviously very good about just laying completely still in his bed, even if someone from woodbury did stumble across it somehow (they seem to predominantly stay on roads so they can stay in their cars unless they're chasing someone..) they might just take it for an abandoned shack and leave it alone.
They need supplies, no reason for them to not have taken any/and all supplies from the neighboring areas, I don't really feel like the "red zone" explains the situation enough, oh well, it's T.V.
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On November 27 2012 09:36 Glazed wrote:
So, was the hermit unaware of the zombie apocalypse? His house was boarded, and he had a shotgun by his bed, yet he still believes the police force and therefore society is still intact?
If so, how...?
Drugs, my friend.
Edit: Or being a lunatic. Either one works.
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That prisoner guy they left behind is def going to turn out to be some crazy killer and go after Herschel's daughter. $10 on Carl saving her.
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So apparently bluffing to rape someone is much more worse than actual physical torture and then leaving them to get eaten alive.
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This episode was powerful in alot of ways, the rape scene( and yes it was a rape scene) is huge becuase of the implications, what if she gets raped and pregnant they dont have facilities they do at the moment so she could die( like Lorie) and for the people who have done it what an exquisite death for them and a horrific one for her!
Secondly the implications of what they are going to do, and the lengths they are willing to achieve their objective is astounding?!
To kill awhole group, purely cos its on there turf, when seemingly there could be less than 20 thousand ppl on the planet( economies of scale accross the whole world) means that killing 10 people is like mass genocide in comparison.
I think the experiements being wrought are also interesting, it opens an avenue that has yet to be explored, spoken about in mockery and sneer yes, but to actually be explored know, it is like a possible salvation or part cure if possible( not a full cure but im assuming you cant just send them back to death quietly and therefore a full cure is impossible).
Anyways an interesting episode even withstanding the whole brother loyalty in it!
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EPT
