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A few USA chants are fine but please don't do it too much.
Stop the stupid USA arguments, thanks.
On another note, CDEC flairs are now live. Sorry about the delay on that. |
So the grand finals start in 20min?
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On August 09 2015 06:07 TheYango wrote:
I don't even know wtf you guys are all arguing about anymore.
Even if EG wins TI they lost TI because winner's bracket apparently
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On August 09 2015 06:07 TheYango wrote:
I don't even know wtf you guys are all arguing about anymore.
Anything, everything, and absolutely nothing. It's hard to keep track, I think that they're just doing it for fun at this point.
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On August 09 2015 06:08 zeo wrote:
So the grand finals start in 20min?
An hour it looks like...
Especially if there will be some performances before
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On August 09 2015 06:08 zeo wrote:
So the grand finals start in 20min?
I see 52min on the calendar.
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On August 09 2015 06:07 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:06 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 06:04 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 06:03 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 06:03 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 06:01 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 05:58 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 05:57 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 05:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 05:51 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
There were only two Western teams above top Chinese teams in 2013. Did that stop people from saying West > China? Exactly, 2, plus one NADota team knocked out another Chinese one (it was Bo1 but still), plus Dignitas did knock out Rattlesnake in first loser's round, huh. That's much better of West vs China record than this TI, huh. Actually, fuck it, i am bored during the break: West vs China at TI3: 5-2 in favor of West West vs China at TI5: 3-7 in favor of China. The difference of one team's results and you're not even looking the group games. Who the fuck cares. The difference of which team's results? Also, obviously i am not giving a fuck about group games because remember where top 2 of group A finished? Natus Vincere in 2013. Had they not made it, it'd have been one Western team against three Chinese/Eastern teams, same as 2015. There is big difference between Chinese and Eastern team, bro. Which is fine but for the fact you're not even looking at MVP. Yes, i absolutely ignored SEA vs China in my stats, because that's out of point. Also, where is your MVP top 3 or something? The lack of another Eastern country in the last two years that is able to win the best of the West and China does not = we ignore the fact that there were only two Western teams in the last five teams of 2013, too. So, you have the guts to claim that West>East despite it being top West teams ~ China > rest of West? Heh.
How is West not > China when the West win all the tournaments? I don't understand how you want to play this. Just because Secret failed this year, West < China? Even when China loses yet another tournament? What?
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1 hour stream of people screaming really loud
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On August 09 2015 06:08 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2015 06:03 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 06:02 hfglgg wrote:On August 09 2015 05:59 pellejohnson wrote:On August 09 2015 05:56 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 05:54 Sabu113 wrote:On August 09 2015 05:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2015 05:46 Shergal wrote:
WEC actually had double elimination grand finals, with two sets of BO3 played and the winner bracket team having to only win one (or was it two sets of BO5? Doesn't matter either way).
Double elimination tournaments are inherently shitty though. I never understood gaming's fetish for them. Double elimination exists because there is no consistency in team seeding and prize pool. If DotA had a proper team ranking system and a prize pool spread across every tournament in the year, the single elim would be fine. It's a fucking horrible idea when seeding is entirely dependent on luck and tournaments can eclipse the total sum of everything else in a year. Take this tournament for example. Top 6 teams, 5 were in Group B. I'm sorry gimping the grand finals is stupid. You get 2 lives to rule out luck in surviving the bracket. If you want 3 mil. Earn it. Plenty of SC tournaments were shit with the 1 game advantage. It's a huge up in terms of strategic flexibility. All the tournament is is qualification for that one match. Don't throw a fit just because EG might win lol You realise you are gimping the grand finals by not having a winners advantage right? If EG win its not a real victory and it kills any real sense of victory. If EG were to have to come from 1 game behind or win 2 Bo5 series then that would be hype as fuck and it would mean they truely are the TI champions. If they win now its like "well EG won buuuuuuuuut..." Basically if EG wins it'll just be anticlimactic Exactly! Even if EG would win they would still not be the "real" winners. I seriously doubt that anyone who has ever played any game competitively defends the "no WB advantage". Anyone who has been in the same situation knows how unfair it is not getting the second life that the other teams had for some odd reason people are fine with group stages being a seperate part of a tournament but never with the final being a seperate part of the tournament. its 2-2 in maps between cdec and eg, it can not be more even and every form of advantage now would just be unfair! ha here you got it, its unfair because if there would be an advantage a team could win while being behind in maps. how are you the better team when you have lost most of your games? the mental gymnastics some people do is really astonishing. Issue is that if EG vs CDEC weren't in the same group then this mental juggling would have never happened so the winner advantage should have been in place regardless. Both CDEC and EG were in the top 4 of their group thats the only thing that matters Top 4 in their groups is how TI5 has the rules written and that's all that's matters. No winner's bracket advantage is because TI5 is stupid and the rules suck. Nice logic. In the group stages it was about placing in top 4 to get your placement. It was a qualifier. Generally qualifiers don't effect main events outside of placements and thus a double elimination should be fair and be set up properly even if it means 5 more hours of Dota.
now you are just trying to make up your own rules.
ok i can do that too, here is mine:
everything is just qualifier for the finals, you can lose once and still advance there. the only thing that matters is that you reach the finals.
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On August 09 2015 06:08 Grettin wrote:An hour it looks like... Especially if there will be some performances before
Sigh, don't think I'll be able to watch more than 2 games then 
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On August 09 2015 06:08 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:07 TheYango wrote:
I don't even know wtf you guys are all arguing about anymore. Even if EG wins TI they lost TI because winner's bracket apparently
wut??
????
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On August 09 2015 06:05 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:04 TheYango wrote:
TI2 is the only time the WB finalist lost in the Grand Finals, and the one time they did, it was 3-1 anyway. For all the hubbub people make about no WB advantage, it hasn't really made a difference. Also, was not it working out in a way that TI2 schedule had LGD play 2 series in a row, Navi having a break between LB and GF and iG having like 1 game that day? Or was iG vs DK first match of final TI2 day?
iG played DK, LGD, and Na'Vi all in one day. I heard that YYF was vomiting in between matches.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 09 2015 06:08 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:07 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 06:06 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 06:04 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 06:03 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 06:03 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 06:01 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 05:58 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 05:57 Azarkon wrote:On August 09 2015 05:56 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
Exactly, 2, plus one NADota team knocked out another Chinese one (it was Bo1 but still), plus Dignitas did knock out Rattlesnake in first loser's round, huh. That's much better of West vs China record than this TI, huh.
Actually, fuck it, i am bored during the break:
West vs China at TI3: 5-2 in favor of West
West vs China at TI5: 3-7 in favor of China. The difference of one team's results and you're not even looking the group games. Who the fuck cares. The difference of which team's results? Also, obviously i am not giving a fuck about group games because remember where top 2 of group A finished? Natus Vincere in 2013. Had they not made it, it'd have been one Western team against three Chinese/Eastern teams, same as 2015. There is big difference between Chinese and Eastern team, bro. Which is fine but for the fact you're not even looking at MVP. Yes, i absolutely ignored SEA vs China in my stats, because that's out of point. Also, where is your MVP top 3 or something? The lack of another Eastern country in the last two years that is able to win the best of the West and China does not = we ignore the fact that there were only two Western teams in the last five teams of 2013, too. So, you have the guts to claim that West>East despite it being top West teams ~ China > rest of West? Heh. How is West not > China when the West has a ridiculous win rate in tournaments? I don't understand how you want to play this. Just because Secret failed this year, West < China? Even when China loses yet another tournament? What?
If there is 1 team in west that consistently wins against Chinese and rest of teams consistently lose to Chinese, that is a sign of 1 top team in West > China > rest of West. You definitely had a point at MDL, when it indeed a western top 3. But as you see, this time it's EG+3 chinese teams in top 4 and that's definitely not West>China. Stop making basic mistakes bruh.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On August 09 2015 06:09 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:08 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 06:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2015 06:03 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 06:02 hfglgg wrote:On August 09 2015 05:59 pellejohnson wrote:On August 09 2015 05:56 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 05:54 Sabu113 wrote:On August 09 2015 05:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2015 05:46 Shergal wrote:
WEC actually had double elimination grand finals, with two sets of BO3 played and the winner bracket team having to only win one (or was it two sets of BO5? Doesn't matter either way).
Double elimination tournaments are inherently shitty though. I never understood gaming's fetish for them. Double elimination exists because there is no consistency in team seeding and prize pool. If DotA had a proper team ranking system and a prize pool spread across every tournament in the year, the single elim would be fine. It's a fucking horrible idea when seeding is entirely dependent on luck and tournaments can eclipse the total sum of everything else in a year. Take this tournament for example. Top 6 teams, 5 were in Group B. I'm sorry gimping the grand finals is stupid. You get 2 lives to rule out luck in surviving the bracket. If you want 3 mil. Earn it. Plenty of SC tournaments were shit with the 1 game advantage. It's a huge up in terms of strategic flexibility. All the tournament is is qualification for that one match. Don't throw a fit just because EG might win lol You realise you are gimping the grand finals by not having a winners advantage right? If EG win its not a real victory and it kills any real sense of victory. If EG were to have to come from 1 game behind or win 2 Bo5 series then that would be hype as fuck and it would mean they truely are the TI champions. If they win now its like "well EG won buuuuuuuuut..." Basically if EG wins it'll just be anticlimactic Exactly! Even if EG would win they would still not be the "real" winners. I seriously doubt that anyone who has ever played any game competitively defends the "no WB advantage". Anyone who has been in the same situation knows how unfair it is not getting the second life that the other teams had for some odd reason people are fine with group stages being a seperate part of a tournament but never with the final being a seperate part of the tournament. its 2-2 in maps between cdec and eg, it can not be more even and every form of advantage now would just be unfair! ha here you got it, its unfair because if there would be an advantage a team could win while being behind in maps. how are you the better team when you have lost most of your games? the mental gymnastics some people do is really astonishing. Issue is that if EG vs CDEC weren't in the same group then this mental juggling would have never happened so the winner advantage should have been in place regardless. Both CDEC and EG were in the top 4 of their group thats the only thing that matters Top 4 in their groups is how TI5 has the rules written and that's all that's matters. No winner's bracket advantage is because TI5 is stupid and the rules suck. Nice logic. In the group stages it was about placing in top 4 to get your placement. It was a qualifier. Generally qualifiers don't effect main events outside of placements and thus a double elimination should be fair and be set up properly even if it means 5 more hours of Dota. now you are just trying to make up your own rules. ok i can do that too, here is mine: everything is just qualifier for the finals, you can lose once and still advance there. the only thing that matters is that you reach the finals.
I'm reading the rules to the tournament as i'm arguing this I literally have them on the screen. No where does it say "oh yeah if you bump into each other in group stages you don't get a winner's advantage"
Basically its just gonna be really lame if EG win and at the end of the day gimping the grand finals would have at least made an EG win seem fair
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 09 2015 06:10 CherryNubCakes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:05 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 09 2015 06:04 TheYango wrote:
TI2 is the only time the WB finalist lost in the Grand Finals, and the one time they did, it was 3-1 anyway. For all the hubbub people make about no WB advantage, it hasn't really made a difference. Also, was not it working out in a way that TI2 schedule had LGD play 2 series in a row, Navi having a break between LB and GF and iG having like 1 game that day? Or was iG vs DK first match of final TI2 day? iG played DK, LGD, and Na'Vi all in one day. I heard that YYF was vomiting in between matches.
Well, thankfully for them Navi went full retard in finals.
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On August 09 2015 06:10 sacrilegious wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:08 lolnoty wrote:On August 09 2015 06:07 TheYango wrote:
I don't even know wtf you guys are all arguing about anymore. Even if EG wins TI they lost TI because winner's bracket apparently wut?? ????
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On August 09 2015 06:09 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 06:08 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 06:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2015 06:03 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 06:02 hfglgg wrote:On August 09 2015 05:59 pellejohnson wrote:On August 09 2015 05:56 Drazerk wrote:On August 09 2015 05:54 Sabu113 wrote:On August 09 2015 05:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2015 05:46 Shergal wrote:
WEC actually had double elimination grand finals, with two sets of BO3 played and the winner bracket team having to only win one (or was it two sets of BO5? Doesn't matter either way).
Double elimination tournaments are inherently shitty though. I never understood gaming's fetish for them. Double elimination exists because there is no consistency in team seeding and prize pool. If DotA had a proper team ranking system and a prize pool spread across every tournament in the year, the single elim would be fine. It's a fucking horrible idea when seeding is entirely dependent on luck and tournaments can eclipse the total sum of everything else in a year. Take this tournament for example. Top 6 teams, 5 were in Group B. I'm sorry gimping the grand finals is stupid. You get 2 lives to rule out luck in surviving the bracket. If you want 3 mil. Earn it. Plenty of SC tournaments were shit with the 1 game advantage. It's a huge up in terms of strategic flexibility. All the tournament is is qualification for that one match. Don't throw a fit just because EG might win lol You realise you are gimping the grand finals by not having a winners advantage right? If EG win its not a real victory and it kills any real sense of victory. If EG were to have to come from 1 game behind or win 2 Bo5 series then that would be hype as fuck and it would mean they truely are the TI champions. If they win now its like "well EG won buuuuuuuuut..." Basically if EG wins it'll just be anticlimactic Exactly! Even if EG would win they would still not be the "real" winners. I seriously doubt that anyone who has ever played any game competitively defends the "no WB advantage". Anyone who has been in the same situation knows how unfair it is not getting the second life that the other teams had for some odd reason people are fine with group stages being a seperate part of a tournament but never with the final being a seperate part of the tournament. its 2-2 in maps between cdec and eg, it can not be more even and every form of advantage now would just be unfair! ha here you got it, its unfair because if there would be an advantage a team could win while being behind in maps. how are you the better team when you have lost most of your games? the mental gymnastics some people do is really astonishing. Issue is that if EG vs CDEC weren't in the same group then this mental juggling would have never happened so the winner advantage should have been in place regardless. Both CDEC and EG were in the top 4 of their group thats the only thing that matters Top 4 in their groups is how TI5 has the rules written and that's all that's matters. No winner's bracket advantage is because TI5 is stupid and the rules suck. Nice logic. In the group stages it was about placing in top 4 to get your placement. It was a qualifier. Generally qualifiers don't effect main events outside of placements and thus a double elimination should be fair and be set up properly even if it means 5 more hours of Dota. now you are just trying to make up your own rules. ok i can do that too, here is mine: everything is just qualifier for the finals, you can lose once and still advance there. the only thing that matters is that you reach the finals.
/!\ you are not making this up, it's actually a justification for the TI system that was used around TI3 IIRC. It's why the entire argument is dumb. Group Stages are a phase, brackets are a phase, grand finals are a phase. They're not linked. Poof everyone can relax.
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The production quality on these recaps is pretty amazing
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I don't see why everyone wants to see a finals where one team is heavily favored to win by having an advantage.
Two best of 5s is too brutal for players to play through (and a scheduling nightmare). Two Bo3s could just end too early to be worthwhile.
Any sort of advantage of a match is way too much. If I have to win 2 games to your 3 then even with a 60% win rate vs you I have a ~52% chance of losing the series. Something is wrong if the team that's better will lose over 1/2 the time because of your tournament structure.
I don't care what's better for players, playing a series that's heavily decided by the tournament format is an awful idea for a finale.
If there had to be an advantage the winner's should "win" the coin flip automatically.
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EPT
