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it sorta makes me uneasy whenever teams that i genuinely like to watch is forced to turn to what they could do about their roster.
I mean i guess i would be ignorant of me to say that it's unprofessional for teams to constantly reshuffle after TI passes and so on because this is a problem that has constantly plagued pro-DotA. Sometimes player's don't synergize well with each other, sometimes there's an internal conflict where people have different views on the game and so on. I mean the investment into a team that's never going to see signs of growth or progress is obviously not worth it. I thought Team Liquid sorta proved me wrong though in some respects though, because liquid's debut was atrocious and it took such a long time for this team to find their footing. they dedicated a long time, through the good and the bad to make it work and we started to see a team showing promise.
my gut feeling tells me that we're not going to see liquid continue their roster as it is now and I think it's almost pathetic to hear news of na'vi reforming once more but regardless, i hope this is something the pro dota community can improve on.
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On August 13 2013 05:24 jigga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 04:18 Mataza wrote:On August 13 2013 03:44 FairForever wrote:On August 13 2013 01:17 BurningSera wrote:
Navi:
I am not hating but i am sure that puppey knows that one person should leave the team asap and i hope he would give funnik another chance since he has huge potential and it was basically xboct who carried the hell of the team (i know it is unbelievable but his performed out of his mind in this TI), followed by funnik (on the heroes he is good at, which is like 80% of the heroes he played in TI3) and dendi.
And then i hope [A] will stay as long as possible because i really want to see when will someone in [A] starts to 'break down' in a team like that, would be very interesting to see how long will Loda's leadership hold them together (dont get me wrong his leadership is a key factor for [A]).
and then i dont care about the rest of western teams, EG gets their shit together and synderen maybe it is time to retire to be a caster or whatever.
chinese teams zzzz please just go sort out your messes in your circle, you guys have too much issues. Wait... so Navi loses Game 5 of the finals by a hair and they want to make a change to the team? I don't get it. Unless you're getting LoH, or a major team disbands [lgd.int?] ... who the heck (that is somewhat available) is gonna be nearly as good as what funn1k or Kuro bring to the team? Ars-Art He may not be free currently, but I have no doubt he would drop Virtus pro in a heartbeat. Have you seen the few games VP won? It was basically AA+1 dragging the team to victory. Other than that there aren't many great support players in CIS region(or the west, for that matter) that are currently actually playing support. edit: Not that I think they need to replace someone. Chances are good they would end up with a worse replacement if they try to force it. Kuroky > ARS-ART hands down. Even ignoring all the problems outside of the game ARS-ART brings, Kuroky is just a better player and a better fit in the team. Rubick lasso steal. 4 man nyx impale (top rune) vs tongfu (game 3). He made plenty of clutch plays this tournament and is the best support Rubick in the world. Funn1k is better than LoH at this point as well. His BH was so instrumental to Navi's wins (game 2 Alliance, against multiple Chinese teams). Navi don't need to change a thing until players start losing motiviation, which we might see after TI3.
we're going to see a lot of motivation lost after ti3 honestly, it's a cycle.
1 : ti ends
2 : roster changes, disbands (continues until 5).
3 : teams don't care and don't practice. players will play casually.
4 : tournament frequency rises, teams begin to play somewhat seriously
5 : after around 1/2 of the year goes by with the end of the international, teams begin to stablize and play seriously. this is the point where valve takes into consideration of which teams will be invited to the event from consistent performance.
6 : teams play somewhat more seriously but not all the way. we see a rise in tournament frequency once more.
7 : ti draws near, teams boot camp.
8 : ti
9 : go back to 1.
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On August 13 2013 03:01 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 02:53 Talron wrote:On August 13 2013 02:41 babylon wrote:On August 13 2013 01:25 BurningSera wrote:On August 13 2013 01:22 Numy wrote:On August 13 2013 01:17 BurningSera wrote:
I am not hating but i am sure that puppey knows that one person should leave the team asap and i hope he would give funnik another chance since he has huge potential and it was basically xboct who carried the hell of the team (i know it is unbelievable but his performed out of his mind in this TI), followed by funnik (on the heroes he is good at, which is like 80% of the heroes he played in TI3) and dendi. Yea I don't know why people are hating on xboct. He carried them through so many games. BurNing was impressed by that freefarm Alche in grand finals (forget game2 or 3), really say something about xboct, too bad the last game he kinda went into yolo mode. We must've been watching different streams or something, 'cause Burning was extremely critical of Hvost's alchemist in G4. We must've been reading different posts or something, 'cause BurningSera was refering to game 2 in which xboct showed one of the best farming performances of the entire tournament. No, we were reading the same post. BurningSera wrote "forget game2 or 3," which I thought meant, "I forget what he said Game 2 or 3," and since there wasn't an alchemist in G1, I thought we were talking about G4 and G5. In any case, I agree that the hate directed towards Hvost is a little bit extreme, but it's still a bit ridiculous to cherry pick pro's opinions when they change so much from one game to another (because Hvost's performance also changes drastically from one game to another).
ye sorry i meant 'i forget if it was in game 2 or 3', i was kind of lazy on typing out the full sentence there.
On August 13 2013 03:44 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 01:17 BurningSera wrote:
Navi:
I am not hating but i am sure that puppey knows that one person should leave the team asap and i hope he would give funnik another chance since he has huge potential and it was basically xboct who carried the hell of the team (i know it is unbelievable but his performed out of his mind in this TI), followed by funnik (on the heroes he is good at, which is like 80% of the heroes he played in TI3) and dendi.
And then i hope [A] will stay as long as possible because i really want to see when will someone in [A] starts to 'break down' in a team like that, would be very interesting to see how long will Loda's leadership hold them together (dont get me wrong his leadership is a key factor for [A]).
and then i dont care about the rest of western teams, EG gets their shit together and synderen maybe it is time to retire to be a caster or whatever.
chinese teams zzzz please just go sort out your messes in your circle, you guys have too much issues. Wait... so Navi loses Game 5 of the finals by a hair and they want to make a change to the team? I don't get it. Unless you're getting LoH, or a major team disbands [lgd.int?] ... who the heck (that is somewhat available) is gonna be nearly as good as what funn1k or Kuro bring to the team?
Well i am gonna say that dont be surprised when kuroky get kicked tomorrow, he is a good player and all (at this stage i am tired on flaming him, and i am definitely cutting him alot of slack due to his performance on Game3) but I'd say if he (and funnik) could be more versatile on playing more heroes, Navi would have given us another different performance throughout TI3 and they would have won Game1 and 4.
And kuroky seems to know that he is in big trouble too, look at his face at pre-grand finals interview and the pic when he was arguing with xboct. And the function of puppey is more about his captaining/drafting, i bet he played less than 10 enigma games from the previous 6 months (and he was actually optimizing his build one game after another rofl).
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On August 13 2013 08:28 BurningSera wrote:
Well i am gonna say that dont be surprised when kuroky get kicked tomorrow, he is a good player and all (at this stage i am tired on flaming him, and i am definitely cutting him alot of slack due to his performance on Game3) but I'd say if he (and funnik) could be more versatile on playing more heroes, Navi would have given us another different performance throughout TI3 and they would have won Game1 and 4.
If there is anything to be learned from bulldog, hero variety is overrated.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing to understand about the way Puppey drafts is that he will quite simply draft what he believes is the best team to win the game against the enemy's draft, irrespective of what his players are "comfortable" with.
Kuroky and Funn1k as they are right now are players that have heroes that they're fantastic and super clutch with, but the number of heroes they can perform that way on are small. They may be good players, but compared to LoH and AA who were older players with less spectacular play on specific heroes but far more consistent performance over MANY heroes, this makes them a weaker fit for a team with Puppey at the helm.
Fundamentally, this is how Na'Vi as a team has always operated. The best example of this is the support Nyx pick at TI2. I'm betting that Na'Vi never once played that in practice, but Puppey picked it simply because he knew that with the draft he was up against, a support Nyx was *the best pick*.
On August 13 2013 08:32 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 08:28 BurningSera wrote:
Well i am gonna say that dont be surprised when kuroky get kicked tomorrow, he is a good player and all (at this stage i am tired on flaming him, and i am definitely cutting him alot of slack due to his performance on Game3) but I'd say if he (and funnik) could be more versatile on playing more heroes, Navi would have given us another different performance throughout TI3 and they would have won Game1 and 4. If there is anything to be learned from bulldog, hero variety is overrated.
Because that's the way Alliance plays the game.
The way Puppey drafts and the way Na'Vi has always played the game with Puppey drafting has been "pick the best teamcomp, and win with the better draft", rather than compromising for a weaker draft due to the desire to play comfort heroes. As such Puppey's drafting style favors players with consistent performance over a wide breadth of heroes over clutch performance on a small number of specific heroes.
Saying "hero variety is overrated" is incorrect without a context of a particular team and playstyle. Bulldog's lack of hero breadth would be a detriment to any other team that doesn't draft and play around him the way Alliance does.
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On August 13 2013 08:32 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 08:28 BurningSera wrote:
Well i am gonna say that dont be surprised when kuroky get kicked tomorrow, he is a good player and all (at this stage i am tired on flaming him, and i am definitely cutting him alot of slack due to his performance on Game3) but I'd say if he (and funnik) could be more versatile on playing more heroes, Navi would have given us another different performance throughout TI3 and they would have won Game1 and 4. If there is anything to be learned from bulldog, hero variety is overrated.
No it matters because puppey is the drafter for navi.
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On August 13 2013 08:35 TheYango wrote:The thing to understand about the way Puppey drafts is that he will quite simply draft what he believes is the best team to win the game against the enemy's draft, irrespective of what his players are "comfortable" with. Kuroky and Funn1k as they are right now are players that have heroes that they're fantastic and super clutch with, but the number of heroes they can perform that way on are small. They may be good players, but compared to LoH and AA who were older players with less spectacular play on specific heroes but far more consistent performance over MANY heroes, this makes them a weaker fit for a team with Puppey at the helm. Fundamentally, this is how Na'Vi as a team has always operated. The best example of this is the support Nyx pick at TI2. I'm betting that Na'Vi never once played that in practice, but Puppey picked it simply because he knew that with the draft he was up against, a support Nyx was *the best pick*. Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 08:32 Jaeger wrote:On August 13 2013 08:28 BurningSera wrote:
Well i am gonna say that dont be surprised when kuroky get kicked tomorrow, he is a good player and all (at this stage i am tired on flaming him, and i am definitely cutting him alot of slack due to his performance on Game3) but I'd say if he (and funnik) could be more versatile on playing more heroes, Navi would have given us another different performance throughout TI3 and they would have won Game1 and 4. If there is anything to be learned from bulldog, hero variety is overrated. Because that's the way Alliance plays the game. The way Puppey drafts and the way Na'Vi has always played the game with Puppey drafting has been "pick the best teamcomp, and win with the better draft", rather than compromising for a weaker draft due to the desire to play comfort heroes. As such Puppey's drafting style favors players with consistent performance over a wide breadth of heroes over clutch performance on a small number of specific heroes. Saying "hero variety is overrated" is incorrect without a context of a particular team and playstyle. Bulldog's lack of hero breadth would be a detriment to any other team that doesn't draft and play around him the way Alliance does.
Too be honest I would say that Alliance's choices for supports is more limited than bulldogs heroes. You saw many games where people just ban all of bulldogs heroes yet get completely destroyed by the supports of Alliance. They spent so many games with Akke making huge control of the game to let s4 do whatever he wanted to mid game to the opposing team. Taking away all of the supports from Alliance (Na'vi banned Chen/naga -> kotl/ench game 2-5 every time) was really the only choice they had at being able to contest the map because they were able to force Akke/EGM onto supports that aren't as map controlling in the early game. You can even see this in the winner's brackets finals where Na'vi have wisp yet can't contest alliance because of the support heroes off Alliance are either too tanky or able to not have to be seen to get farm, leaving Na'vi very little in terms of punishing Akke/EGM.
I still think this was an amazing finals though and huge props to Na'vi and Alliance to take it to game 5 with so much on the line =P.
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Yeah, Na'vi demonstrated that the only way to throw Alliance of their game is to take out their supports in the draft. Then you have a chance — assuming you're as good as Na'vi. Nerves getting to Alliance also helps, as that made them make much more mistakes than they regularly do.
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Well, Na'Vi was forced into that situation when LoH decided to temporary retire and AA left the team/was removed. They were on a slump and had little time to try out new players, so they decided to go with Funn1k and KuroKy and it was either do-or-die. I was actually quite surprised how much they achieved given the little time they had. They had less then half an year playing together and over-achieved IMO.
The question is whether they are willing to enter the new cycle with this roster. If they have some internal issues and the chemistry isn't there, it would be very hard to motivate themselves to do it again. Sometimes a team, no matter how successful it is, needs a chance to go forward. Alliance did the same when they got EGM on board and it worked wonders so it is up to Na'Vi to decide whether they share the same goals/motivations entering the next TI cycle.
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What an amazing series, truly. I didn't care really who won, as both storylines are amazing, though I was cheering for Na'Vi when they were down and for Alliance to bring it back for a game 5. It happened, and damn...there is nothing else to say, really.
+ Show Spoiler [draft discussion] +I think it's pretty clear that the key heroes to Alliance are the non Loda/Bulldog heroes. You can't ban out either of them, even though Bulldog doesn't play that many heroes. When you compare him to other offlaners, his variety in hero choices is not as limited as it would seem. Notably neither he nor Loda really play Weaver, but that's not that big of a deal. Bulldog pretty much plays every other common offlaner in the current state of the game aside from maybe Dark Seer, and Alliance is completely fine with banning Dark Seer-often their first two bans are something like DS/Lifestealer.
Alliance most definitely will take Furion or Lone Druid if either of them is open (there was one game in the finals in which Lone Druid was not banned and Alliance actually took Furion instead) and maybe part of the problem is that Na'Vi don't really value these two picks as much as other teams. Funn1k is not really known for his Furion/sylla, and Na'Vi rarely picks them. Light of Heaven on the other hand used to play both (sylla in particular) more often.
The other thing to consider is that banning EGM's and Akke's heroes is much more detrimental to Alliance's draft because a big part of their game revolves around getting the supports farmed in the jungle. Akke's Chen is crazy-first picking or banning it is almost required. I would have rather liked to see Puppey ban the Wisp and go for the Chen or something like that instead of other things-hint toward the Pudge pick even. Na'Vi has heroes that are worthy of bans and they can instill the fear of heroes just as Alliance can, but if the threat of a pick is not there then the opponent will not be scared.
Overall though I feel like Alliance's draft is very very predictable. Usually you can expect or predict every pick except occasionally the last, though you'll generally know who is going to play what instantly and even if you can't predict a precise pick you can predict the type of pick it'll be. For example I did not specifically expect the Night Stalker in game 4 but it was pretty obvious it was going to be some sort of midgame tempo-controller/ganker from S4 like it almost always is. Na'Vi is considerably more unpredictable, but it's truly impressive how little it matters that a team like Alliance can basically telegraph their picks but still rout other teams.
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Teams moving forwards from TI3.
1. Alliance - There's nothing really to say, they've showed some pretty sick individual skills and even better team coordination. Don't know why people say their games are boring (probably just butt-hurt haters), there is a good point however that Alliance's drafting is a bit more predictable even though as it is, is really flexible. Would be great to see all of them pick new go to heroes to up their drafting unpredictability. This probably does depend on new patches.
2. Navi - No need to reshuffle, but there is a price to pay for their explosive often hit-or-miss game plays, can you say 1.4 mil? Fans love Navi for their dynamism, but it shouldn't stop them from being more disciplined in-game. Puppey should reconsider his drafting strategies as G1 was just bad... that was one thrown game. I can understand if Xboct is upset with G1. Teamwork above all.
3. Orange - As a Singaporean, I'm really awed by Orange's play and really wished they made it top 2. All in all, everybody will agree they really improved their game over TI3, Mushi didn't throw, amazing creative drafting, excellent supports. Really hyped to see them get better and perhaps next time, get some sweet revenge over Navi. I think the draft with OD, Windrunner core was a bit lacking in end-game DPS, so it was really really sad for the Aegis deny. NVM KYXY! You were awesome. Surprised they didn't play more Net sand-king considering I thought he pulled some really amazing games over the last few months for them. If anyone could end Alliance's crazy streak, I would definitely put them in contention over Navi or any CN team.
4. Tongfu - This year, they've showed really great games play styles and great teamwork. I remember Sansheng played some amazing Shadow demon pre. 6.78., they also play great clockwerk. I don't know, maybe the big stage played on their nerves a bit.
5. DK - Burning's great, he should really play on. Don't flame me, but I think they can let roTK go. Having a great carry 4-1 as your go-to strat is a bit weak these days. Just something about their line-up isn't winning as much, maybe some K/D/A stats leading to TI3 will show who feeds the opponents too much. Its a hard call I know, but if you want to play to win, its really important to get the right team.
6. i.G - Its hard to be an i.G. fan these days. Chuan - Lion??? Faith was lacklustre, Zhou doesn't carry hard enough, Ferrari solo-mid is great, but there's some really stiff competition out there with Mushi, Dendi, S4. Using old TI2 tactics and not playing like the team that were champions. Its been all year now. Nobody knows whats really going on with team i.G. I guess everybody really stepped up their game and the former champions just don't know how to take it to the next level, like D.K they might need to consider a reshuffle.
7. Fnatic - I didn't really get to see their games, so I won't say much. Suffice to say I'm pleasantly surprised they've made it Top 8, so gratz to them!
8. Team Liquid - I don't know, as much as I'm a liquid fan, I can't really i see this current line-up team taking it to another level. fluff, bulba, TC and korok are pretty consistent and they play some mean unconventional picks (Razor, Viper, Slark), not that I have anything personal against ixMike but I think his support play is a bit lacking. Like Sansheng, I remember he played some mean SD, but for the longest time he was using Treant and those games bored me. That being said, I'm sure the team has learnt a lot from watching the tournament, so best of luck in the future.
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Anyone have a feel in the 5th game that Roshan bashed Dendi because Roshan knew Na'vi wasn't the rightful one to deserve the Aegis that day? 
Big props to Alliance because I have not seen a team that played Dota on such a strategic level in a long time. And they did it on the biggest stage as well, not to mention in the midst of the home crowd of Na'vi (arguably Na'vi was pretty much the poster boy of Dota 2 and The International).
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Is there any site that tracks Compendium stats (in regards to predictions, not fantasy teams)?
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I still don't understand Game 1 Na'Vi draft, and Game 2 Alliance draft.
Were both throws?
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Who knows anything about Game 1 Navi draft... Puppey probably just wanted to throw a super weird curveball he's never done before and hoped it would work.
Game 2 Alliance - There's a S4 interview where they said they played this line up in the prelims. Control with Veno early game - Beastmaster - mid-game + BKB immune stuns and Spectre carries through the late game, idk.. that maybe fine, but giving away Bat + wisp shouldn't have been a part of that.
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I think G1 Na'Vi intended to gank the fuck out of Alliance and then snowball so hard they'd win in 20 minutes. The lanes kinda didn't work out so well and they got crushed because a lack of snowball for that comp results in falling on their faces. That composition was basically going to be a stomp one way or the other-either Na'Vi would look like geniuses or morons.
G2 I think the draft for Alliance was centered around creating space for Spectre with antipush/split push (veno and furion, respectively, Beastmaster is not bad either with the hawk to track movement for safer turtling and axes and aura for antipush/push) with some sprinkling of focus-one-hero-and-just-kill mentality. Classic four protect one from the looks of it. Na'Vi just succeeded over and over in ganks with Kuroky's Wisp so that pretty much failed since S4 got hounded so badly.
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I just feel NaVi were the only ones smart enough to throw Alliance out of their comfort zone. They had played how many games on EGM-Naga and Akke-Chen in those ~20 games leading up to the final? Sure they're certainly amazing players on other heroes too, but when you go like 19-1 on certain heroes, being forced to play another set of heroes even if you normally feel confident with them is a win for the enemy team. I feel the top 3 bans for NaVi should have been Chen/Naga/Prophet for that reason since they didnt wanna "waste" a ban on wisp apparently. Further banning ench+kotl I think were also great bans, at least ench. Ench forced Alliance to not be able to take advantage of the jungle as much as they normally do since Alliance dont seem to run Enigma or other jungler like we sometimes see, like 4 position jungle Doom I know I've seen a few times. Forcing them into typical nuke/stun-support-heroes like lina/CM/SD/lesh/visage/you name it and stopping the massive abuse of their jungle Alliance does very well stops the fact that alliance support often seems to be much more wealthy than enemy support. The kotl ban might have been exchanged for another ban unless they were afraid of kotl/PL I think though, or at least it wasnt as important as Ench.
Both the veno/spectre draft and the ogre/druid draft are surely something they've played before and Im sure they'd beat most teams with it (hell they almost came back after a terrible trilane fail start with the bloodlusted bear....) but theres still less certainty it will work when you bring out a strat for the first time in a tournament in the grand final. As i think s4 said in an interview, NaVi were too aggressive early game to make the spectre draft work. Had they played the spectre draft 5-10 times already during the international I dont think they'd have been caught off guard like that. So them being forced to play a "new" draft had them out of their comfort zone and as it turned out, it just didnt work that game. And even if it worked for Alliance in game 4 with the NS, forcing out a new hero in game 4 of a final surely means you managed to throw them off somewhat.
Other teams were just autobanning wisp+druid mostly against Alliance because "hey wisp is OP" and "Bulldog is supposedly some kind of superhero on druid". Granted the wisp ban is probably quite warranted, but the amount of druid bans Im quite sure were not. Why ban 1/2 of a players speciality heroes? He still gets the other one. Either ban both or none.
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i have to say that i found it amazing that navi were the first team to realise the key to beating Alliance was banning chen/naga.
anyway, great games, i'm happy that alliance won even though i was going for navi. navi truly are the ultimate x-factor team, they pulled out some ridiculous wins from games that should have been lost.
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Post-TI3 reshuffle:
Na`Vi - Kky+Ppy out;
iG - Zhou, 430, YYF out;
LGD.int - full disband;
Liquid - Korok out;
Dignitas - Universe out;
Zenith - xy- out;
VP - Crazy, Illidan out;
MUFC - fzfz out;
Mouz - Synderen out;
RS - full disband;
Quantic - full disband;
EG - full disband except Fear.
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
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On August 13 2013 20:36 renfree wrote:
Post-TI3 reshuffle:
Na`Vi - Kky+Ppy out;
iG - Zhou, 430, YYF out;
LGD.int - full disband;
Liquid - Korok out;
Dignitas - Universe out;
Zenith - xy- out;
VP - Crazy, Illidan out;
MUFC - fzfz out;
Mouz - Synderen out;
RS - full disband;
Quantic - full disband;
EG - full disband except Fear.
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
Good bait bro.
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EPT
