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On August 16 2013 02:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 02:50 babylon wrote:On August 15 2013 21:17 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 08:28 babylon wrote:On August 15 2013 07:05 Count9 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:29 Gheizen64 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah dont get me wrong, i thought TI3 was awesome and there were a lot of exciting games. I just found it interesting that it would be like that after hearing "every hero in dota is so unique". Thought that would lead to even more variety.
Well thank u for the answers, maybe i start playing dota2 now too . Dude have u actually played a multi-rostered game? In every fighter there are always S-tier character and then the rest (SSBM had literally only 1 playable character and everyone else was underpar), WC3 had only 4 races and 1 was considered worse than the others (UD) and most top players were Orc or NE. Strategic games like the AW series have usually 1-2 broken tier character, then 4-5 playable and the rest is unplayable generals (AW:DS however was a lot better, only 2 broken tier, 4-5 fair tier and only 3-4 unplayable). I don't play LoL but i'm pretty sure it's worse than in Dota in terms of how many heroes out of the rosters are regularly picked, not to talk about the fact that you don' have as much lane flexibility. Dota has never been so varied in term of picks either. TI2 was pretty bad already (Morph/Naga/DS/Lycan/Rubick/Lesh gege), but there have been far worse eras. Like Mirana/ES/Lina/Sand King/Lion/SF and little else (6.59 Ks.Int period). SF and Mirana in particular weren't broken but people whined FOR YEARS about them because every single game had them in it. Those heroes never saw particular nerfs and have seen mostly buffs from then on. I'd like to go and watch the old GG archives now lol. You literally have no idea what you're talking about at all. To pick on another section of his post: "WC3 had only 4 races and 1 was considered worse than the others (UD) and most top players were Orc or NE." Wat. This is only true if we're talking about past a certain time period. Human for a very long time were extremely dominant, especially after people started figuring out the Masonry Tower metagame where you'd just spam like 800 towers and Steam Ganks galore. It is true though that Orc/NE in the last stages of WC3 was pretty much the two most dominant races (with way more Orcs than NE players), with Human kinda lagging behind, and UD being very weak. This is due to a multitude of reasons, but the main reason was because of the rise of the Blademaster with 500 crits due to Claw Stacking. You're right that at different periods of time, different races were dominant. But when you're strictly talking about top players, it's extremely balanced (minus UD). Not even thinking about where to rank players, you'll inevitably see people like Moon (NE), Sky (HU), Grubby (OC), Lyn (OC), ReMinD (NE), TH000 (HU), Infi (HU), ToD (HU), and possibly TeD and Happy (both UD) mentioned amongst others. The distribution is relatively even (possibly skewed towards HU depending on how you rank the players, there are people like Soccer, Insomnia, Lucifer, etc.). Also, Human play only really took off after Sky showed the world how to play proper aggressive human ~2005-2006. In the late period of War3 (still trucking on, just fyi), the top players are pretty much HU, minus Lyn. Finals are almost always Lyn vs. TH000 these days (and Yumiko is not doing badly either, and even UD made a push-back for a while with players like TeD and Believe on the ground). or you could attribute that to China being the only place still playing wc3 and their scene has always been dominated by human.
I'm just refuting the fact that "most top players were Orc or NE" and "Orc/NE in the last stages of WC3 [were] pretty much the two most dominant races." (You're right that a lot of the reason for HU's dominance is that China is the last place to competitively play War3 and a lot of the Chinese War3 players are still playing.) In any case, Yumiko's the only top Human player in China right now who probably wouldn't be considered top-tier material if War3 was still going strong; he is def. better than Sky atm and probably Infi too given their current conditions.
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On August 16 2013 02:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 02:50 babylon wrote:On August 15 2013 21:17 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 08:28 babylon wrote:On August 15 2013 07:05 Count9 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:29 Gheizen64 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah dont get me wrong, i thought TI3 was awesome and there were a lot of exciting games. I just found it interesting that it would be like that after hearing "every hero in dota is so unique". Thought that would lead to even more variety.
Well thank u for the answers, maybe i start playing dota2 now too . Dude have u actually played a multi-rostered game? In every fighter there are always S-tier character and then the rest (SSBM had literally only 1 playable character and everyone else was underpar), WC3 had only 4 races and 1 was considered worse than the others (UD) and most top players were Orc or NE. Strategic games like the AW series have usually 1-2 broken tier character, then 4-5 playable and the rest is unplayable generals (AW:DS however was a lot better, only 2 broken tier, 4-5 fair tier and only 3-4 unplayable). I don't play LoL but i'm pretty sure it's worse than in Dota in terms of how many heroes out of the rosters are regularly picked, not to talk about the fact that you don' have as much lane flexibility. Dota has never been so varied in term of picks either. TI2 was pretty bad already (Morph/Naga/DS/Lycan/Rubick/Lesh gege), but there have been far worse eras. Like Mirana/ES/Lina/Sand King/Lion/SF and little else (6.59 Ks.Int period). SF and Mirana in particular weren't broken but people whined FOR YEARS about them because every single game had them in it. Those heroes never saw particular nerfs and have seen mostly buffs from then on. I'd like to go and watch the old GG archives now lol. You literally have no idea what you're talking about at all. To pick on another section of his post: "WC3 had only 4 races and 1 was considered worse than the others (UD) and most top players were Orc or NE." Wat. This is only true if we're talking about past a certain time period. Human for a very long time were extremely dominant, especially after people started figuring out the Masonry Tower metagame where you'd just spam like 800 towers and Steam Ganks galore. It is true though that Orc/NE in the last stages of WC3 was pretty much the two most dominant races (with way more Orcs than NE players), with Human kinda lagging behind, and UD being very weak. This is due to a multitude of reasons, but the main reason was because of the rise of the Blademaster with 500 crits due to Claw Stacking. You're right that at different periods of time, different races were dominant. But when you're strictly talking about top players, it's extremely balanced (minus UD). Not even thinking about where to rank players, you'll inevitably see people like Moon (NE), Sky (HU), Grubby (OC), Lyn (OC), ReMinD (NE), TH000 (HU), Infi (HU), ToD (HU), and possibly TeD and Happy (both UD) mentioned amongst others. The distribution is relatively even (possibly skewed towards HU depending on how you rank the players, there are people like Soccer, Insomnia, Lucifer, etc.). Also, Human play only really took off after Sky showed the world how to play proper aggressive human ~2005-2006. In the late period of War3 (still trucking on, just fyi), the top players are pretty much HU, minus Lyn. Finals are almost always Lyn vs. TH000 these days (and Yumiko is not doing badly either, and even UD made a push-back for a while with players like TeD and Believe on the ground). or you could attribute that to China being the only place still playing wc3 and their scene has always been dominated by human.
after the best UDs like Sweet, GoStop, FoV and even Madfrog etc retired human had a free reign in china.
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On August 16 2013 02:57 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 02:29 Gheizen64 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah dont get me wrong, i thought TI3 was awesome and there were a lot of exciting games. I just found it interesting that it would be like that after hearing "every hero in dota is so unique". Thought that would lead to even more variety.
Well thank u for the answers, maybe i start playing dota2 now too . Dude have u actually played a multi-rostered game? In every fighter there are always S-tier character and then the rest (SSBM had literally only 1 playable character and everyone else was underpar) [ ... ] Actually SSBM has 8 characters considered S-Tier ( source). It's worse for SSB and SSBB though. Anyway don't mind me nitpicking, I agree with the overall point of your post 
That tier list is fairly accurate in terms of ranking the characters, but not in separating them into tiers. Even in the wiki article itself, you can see they changed the definition of what S-tier typically means. There are 3-5 characters up for debate in the actual SSBM top tier.
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On August 16 2013 01:43 archonOOid wrote:
I'm somewhat disappointed by the tournament now as after an intense week. No official coverage of the preliminaries was a big miss, lackluster camera production was another miss as instant player/fan reaction was nowhere to be seen. I also disliked that there was man on the ground covering the stories from the venue.
Huh? The casters of the prelims did just fine (I am not a fan of Sheever, but that happens) and were the same guys who did the playoffs.
Not sure what you mean with camera production, but I had no problem with that. And if you missed player reaction, you could just watch the booth cams. Fans got consistently interviewed. In fact, this was, imho, the best-covered esports event I have ever watched.
Actually, I think you're a troll. GG. You got me :/
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On August 15 2013 21:31 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 21:17 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 08:28 babylon wrote:On August 15 2013 07:05 Count9 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:29 Gheizen64 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah dont get me wrong, i thought TI3 was awesome and there were a lot of exciting games. I just found it interesting that it would be like that after hearing "every hero in dota is so unique". Thought that would lead to even more variety.
Well thank u for the answers, maybe i start playing dota2 now too . Dude have u actually played a multi-rostered game? In every fighter there are always S-tier character and then the rest (SSBM had literally only 1 playable character and everyone else was underpar), WC3 had only 4 races and 1 was considered worse than the others (UD) and most top players were Orc or NE. Strategic games like the AW series have usually 1-2 broken tier character, then 4-5 playable and the rest is unplayable generals (AW:DS however was a lot better, only 2 broken tier, 4-5 fair tier and only 3-4 unplayable). I don't play LoL but i'm pretty sure it's worse than in Dota in terms of how many heroes out of the rosters are regularly picked, not to talk about the fact that you don' have as much lane flexibility. Dota has never been so varied in term of picks either. TI2 was pretty bad already (Morph/Naga/DS/Lycan/Rubick/Lesh gege), but there have been far worse eras. Like Mirana/ES/Lina/Sand King/Lion/SF and little else (6.59 Ks.Int period). SF and Mirana in particular weren't broken but people whined FOR YEARS about them because every single game had them in it. Those heroes never saw particular nerfs and have seen mostly buffs from then on. I'd like to go and watch the old GG archives now lol. You literally have no idea what you're talking about at all. To pick on another section of his post: "WC3 had only 4 races and 1 was considered worse than the others (UD) and most top players were Orc or NE." Wat. This is only true if we're talking about past a certain time period. Human for a very long time were extremely dominant, especially after people started figuring out the Masonry Tower metagame where you'd just spam like 800 towers and Steam Ganks galore. It is true though that Orc/NE in the last stages of WC3 was pretty much the two most dominant races (with way more Orcs than NE players), with Human kinda lagging behind, and UD being very weak. This is due to a multitude of reasons, but the main reason was because of the rise of the Blademaster with 500 crits due to Claw Stacking. that's not true at all. there was a period in vanilla WC3 with Heman and FatC that ended pretty quickly. in frozen throne there where Sky and Infi, later TH000 and in between sometimes ToD that shined. but there was never a long period of human domination. even in the tower era good UDs dominated humans and then lost to some random Orc 
Before they changed how fast expansions work, Humans also dominated in TFT also. Not to mention, Sky and ToD literally dominated everyone for a period of time before they nerfed Ivory Towers/Tower Masonry/Steam Tanks/etc. so I'm not sure where you get this idea where Human wasn't strong for long periods of time.
Like, who the fuck lost to Orc as a Human when Ivory Towers were broken as hell? Mass Caster/AM/BM/Ivory Tower/Militia push was impossible to stop, you could micro with like 600 apm and still lose to some 80 apm scrub simply because it was impossible to stop the towers from going up without taking heavy losses.
Not to mention, once people figured out fast expanding in RoC and militia creeping, Human was pretty much borderline broken.
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On August 16 2013 07:37 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 02:57 dani` wrote:On August 15 2013 02:29 Gheizen64 wrote:On August 14 2013 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah dont get me wrong, i thought TI3 was awesome and there were a lot of exciting games. I just found it interesting that it would be like that after hearing "every hero in dota is so unique". Thought that would lead to even more variety.
Well thank u for the answers, maybe i start playing dota2 now too . Dude have u actually played a multi-rostered game? In every fighter there are always S-tier character and then the rest (SSBM had literally only 1 playable character and everyone else was underpar) [ ... ] Actually SSBM has 8 characters considered S-Tier ( source). It's worse for SSB and SSBB though. Anyway don't mind me nitpicking, I agree with the overall point of your post That tier list is fairly accurate in terms of ranking the characters, but not in separating them into tiers. Even in the wiki article itself, you can see they changed the definition of what S-tier typically means. There are 3-5 characters up for debate in the actual SSBM top tier.
The only thing I know about SSBM is that Wobbles is my favorite ever.
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EPT
