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@logo: Food for thought and practise, it could well be a mmr thing too. At my mediocre level people tend to overextend so much that forcestaff+urn on supports seem really valuable and sometimes overpowered. If i can keep the carry alive im a good support and i do that alot with a forcestaff and an urn! This besides the fact that sniper, tombstone, radiance, plagueward, euls etcetc counters blink which can be quite frustrating when you want to initiate. So. I made it a habit to mostly go forcestaff on a support except on those sandking-like heros. Will try blink to feel a difference ofcourse, see how that fits on a supportkunkka.
@bluemoonSC: I think -X- is the setup for torrent or boat and dont need an euls for a combo. Alot of us just need to practise the combo's more.
Starladder bigdaddynotail supportkunkka (editing the post during the game so we have some stuff noted
Game : Layons vs. Secret (22 december 2014)
Supportcombo : Kunka+Mirana (-x- setup for arrow and other stuff at lvl1)
Starting Items : Naked boot+clarity+tangos --> tp & smoke
............Skillbuild: 0010 --> 2020
20min Items: sentry+manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle
...........Skillbuild: 3041
46 min Items: manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle+forcestaff (against a disruptor)
add. info : only 4 armour at 46 minutes on kunka iirc, which isnt alot against a viper/pa/lc core. Then again, whole draft had weak armour and no aoe armour items on any hero, seems to me secret got outdrafted/itemised this game.
---game over---
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United States47024 Posts
If your team doesn't need you to lead-off with X, you might actually not need either, that's why I hesitated to call Blink core, because unless you HAVE to initiate, all your skills are like 1k range so you don't need Blink to be in range for them.
If you have some more reliable initiating stun like Beastmaster (Beastmaster+Kunkka X->Roar is some old-school DotA 1 shit, lol) you may be better off with a Meka/Halberd/some other team utility item.
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Yeah I don't know why everybody tries to compare Blink with Force Staff all the time. They serve very different functions. Blink is nice on Kunkka for ultra long range initiations, but you really need to be paired with another hero who can take advantage of it to utilize it effectively throughout a game. There's also some X > Blink shenanigans that you can do. Force Staff is much more defensive in nature. Also getting one does not preclude getting the other. It's all situational.
The only thing I think can be considered core on Kunkka now is Bottle with the X changes.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I'm not saying that you would need to use euls in place of x. I'm just curious if it would be a worthwhile pickup on a support kunkka since it could work as a setup in addition to the movespeed and mana.
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I was fooling around a bit, didnt even feel that bad for pubs and its fun. Long range spells and items which makes it pretty easy and save to execute. It solves early game manashits and kunkka's low armour issues aswell. Nice for low priority, haha
Triple barrel shotgunbuild
Early game: 1131 & naked boot + urn + double nulls + consumeables
Goal: 4142 etcetc & tq + urn + veil (+dagon)
1. Outputdamage of the triple barrel shotgun with the above items in the lategame is: (600+300+900+150) *1,25= 1850 *1,25 = 2313 damage, eat that!
2. -X- initiationrange is 1000
3. Dagon 800 range, still a pretty safe.
Just for fun, spreading ideas like they do on www.ted.com
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It's more like 2k since Dagon does 800 not 900 and Urn isn't going to outdamage even regen by the time you have 12k gold for all that.
Blink + BF + Daedalus is I think straight up better for the same gold.
Unless you buy a Refresher. =]
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I really don't understand people buying battlefury on this hero. It doesn't synergise with him at all. The tidebringer cleave requires completely different positioning, so it's not like they stack effectively.
I mean sure he's melee and the sustain makes his life a bit easier, but that applies to every carry ever.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 24 2014 08:21 Belisarius wrote:
I really don't understand people buying battlefury on this hero. It doesn't synergise with him at all. The tidebringer cleave requires completely different positioning, so it's not like they stack effectively.
I mean sure he's melee and the sustain makes his life a bit easier, but that applies to every carry ever.
It's a farming item and gives efficient damage when damage is the main offensive stat he uses until quite late game.
If you're in a farmy game, it's going to be the most efficient farming item to buy.
Obviously he's also a good gank/fighting hero, but there are a lot of reasons why you'd need to play a farmier game, and the Coco's Rum buff inherently makes him a good fit for playing out lategame with multiple farmed cores.
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i guess rum doesnt stack at all, not even for 25%? so you couldnt use the perserverance for a refresher.
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United States47024 Posts
It just refreshes the duration. And X and Ship are super bugged when you cast them while the first one is still going.
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would've been cool if buff/debuffs can have stacks...
can you imagine refresher poison nova? it'll be so strong!
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On December 23 2014 05:26 govie wrote:
@logo: Food for thought and practise, it could well be a mmr thing too. At my mediocre level people tend to overextend so much that forcestaff+urn on supports seem really valuable and sometimes overpowered. If i can keep the carry alive im a good support and i do that alot with a forcestaff and an urn! This besides the fact that sniper, tombstone, radiance, plagueward, euls etcetc counters blink which can be quite frustrating when you want to initiate. So. I made it a habit to mostly go forcestaff on a support except on those sandking-like heros. Will try blink to feel a difference ofcourse, see how that fits on a supportkunkka.
@bluemoonSC: I think -X- is the setup for torrent or boat and dont need an euls for a combo. Alot of us just need to practise the combo's more.
Starladder bigdaddynotail supportkunkka (editing the post during the game so we have some stuff noted
Game : Layons vs. Secret (22 december 2014)
Supportcombo : Kunka+Mirana (-x- setup for arrow and other stuff at lvl1)
Starting Items : Naked boot+clarity+tangos --> tp & smoke
............Skillbuild: 0010 --> 2020
20min Items: sentry+manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle
...........Skillbuild: 3041
46 min Items: manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle+forcestaff (against a disruptor)
add. info : only 4 armour at 46 minutes on kunka iirc, which isnt alot against a viper/pa/lc core. Then again, whole draft had weak armour and no aoe armour items on any hero, seems to me secret got outdrafted/itemised this game.
---game over---
1) Bottle > Urn for Kunkka due to X + TP fountain trips. Remember you can use Bottle on teammates and that you also can use a free bottle charge right after TPing as it'll recharge from fountain.
2) Don't really need Eul's as support Kunkka. You already have X if you need setup/initiation and you don't need the mana regen due to X + Bottle.
3) You don't really need Blink on support Kunkka unless you specifically need the super long range initiation. His normal skills are all long range already. Blink has more utility with a core Kunkka for combo'ing with X to get in and out of fights to get your cleaves off, plus it lets you farm faster/safer.
4) Mek on support Kunkka is extra effective with the rum buff. Plus the stats and armor beefs him up a bit too. It's my go-to luxury item on support Kunkka.
All you have to do as support Kunkka is just stay far in the backlines and be ready to combo your skills, which is very easy to do with such long range on Kunkka's skills. Be at every teamfight, your ult has a very low cooldown. Don't worry about getting into the thick of things to get your cleave off, it's not worth it as a support with no damage. I just focus on keeping allies alive while your stuff is on cooldown, which is where Mek and Force Staff come in.
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How do you do the XMTS torrent boat combo? What's the timing?
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The delay on X is 4 at all levels, the delay on torrent is 1.6, and the delay on ship is 3. Torrent stuns for 1.53 and slows by 35% for 4 seconds. Boat stuns for 1.4. So the best is to use X, then Boat after 1 second, then torrent immediately as the boat hits.
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I mean when kunkka players do the combo, they usually move a step back etc. So what's the exact procedure that they do?
My inability to pull the full combo off has cost me the 2 recent games when i randomed kunkka haha.
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Oh, taking a step back, that's smart! I'm not a good Kunkka player so I hadn't thought of that.
So if I'm understanding it correctly, the movement isn't for timing (you can just count in your head), but it's because boat hits something like 600-700 units in front of Kunkka. No matter where you click the point target, it draws a line between Kunkka and the point for the boat to travel, always hitting that large 600-700 units. So if you have level 2 X (say, 1-2-2-1 at level 6, for instance), and you X-torrent-boat combo, your boat will miss because level 2 X only has 550 cast range. However, if you level 2 X, take a step back, then cast boat, cast torrent, wait 2 seconds then pull the hero back to the X, you will hit the torrent and then hit the boat on top of the torrented hero.
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A wiki says:
- cast Range: 1000
- 650 is the travelspeed of the boat.
- Kunkka turns to face the target point; the ship then spawns 1000 units behind Kunkka, travels forward, and finishes 1000 units ahead of Kunkka.
So i think the fixed impactrange you are talking about is 1000? Then your step(s) back method would still be applicable ofcourse.
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United States47024 Posts
It's pretty simple. Ship hits 1000 units in front of you with 425 radius, which means a unit 575 units in front of you will be hit by it. So you really just step back to get that 575 range between you and your target when X rank 2 range is 550.
It actually also works out your timing because Ship has a 3s delay while X lasts 4 seconds. Turning all the way around takes 0.3s and casting Ship is 0.4, so you really just walk a little so you can use up that full second. You don't need to use the pull-back at all.
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Lv 3+ X > Torrent > Ship > Return X
Lv 2 X > walk back a little bit > Ship > Torrent under target(s) ~1s before Ship hits
Lv 1 X > don't even bother, better to use another teammates setup to do Torrent > Ship from long range
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So level 2 X is walk back ship before torrent? And for 3+ X is to just cast torrent and ship immediately and time return X?
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EPT
