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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 17 2014 23:07 TheYango wrote:
X-Torrent-Boat should be fine, though again, relies pretty heavily on how well you know the range of Ship and the timing of X relative to his skills.
I think that the value point is justified at this point. we had this convo a while back about going 1-2-2-1 for x - torrent - ship combo at lvl 6. I think that if you go 2-2-1-1 right now, you can land your full combo if you're good enough.
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I don't know what all the complaining is about the X changes are a much much bigger buff than nerf overall. The support Kunkka is real.
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the guy with the awesome cleave shouldn't be a support  .
But thats just my opinion.
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What's with the push to make Kunkka support?
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SoCal8910 Posts
supports with the potential to be semi-carry are good in 6.82+
also bc he has 3 spells that could be just as good on a support nuker.
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There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable.
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On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game.
We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate.
I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny.
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On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate.
I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny.
On December 18 2014 21:00 totalpigeon wrote:
There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable.
I'm wondering why you think a support KKA can only spare a value point in X. Support Alch wouldn't put points into Greed. Support Gyro (lol) isn't skilling Flak Cannon. I'm not seeing why you need to put more than a single point *maybe* into Tidebringer. You can easily level up X for the cast range buff early game.
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On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny.
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/473466-shifting-snows-update-683?page=15#292
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On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny. Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 21:00 totalpigeon wrote:
There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable. I'm wondering why you think a support KKA can only spare a value point in X. Support Alch wouldn't put points into Greed. Support Gyro (lol) isn't skilling Flak Cannon. I'm not seeing why you need to put more than a single point *maybe* into Tidebringer. You can easily level up X for the cast range buff early game.
Not arguing that you can't. Single point in x is nice for team use but you only really get effective offensive capability out of it when you level it for the range. I was just suggesting euls as an option, since you want some mana regen anyway. Maybe I'm still thinking all wrong about this and it's really bottle - travels you want.
Value point in tidebringer is pretty pointless I'd say. If you're not gonna max it just ignore it and get stats.
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United States47024 Posts
Support Kunkka just gets whatever team items the team needs. There's not really a push for specific items so you can get like Meka/Vlad/Halberd/etc.
You still max Tidebringer eventually, it's just ranks 2-4 aren't worth it before you have 4 Torrent 4 X.
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On December 19 2014 02:35 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny. http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/473466-shifting-snows-update-683?page=15#292
If you're going to be pedantic, the context is that being a noob or not doesn't matter. It's looking at a paper change and complaining that it's harder without any effort put into actually trying the combo out in game, at which point it's pretty obvious that it's only a nerf in very niche circumstances (being disabled for 3 seconds between X and torrent for example).
If you're so concerned about forum rules you should stop trying to derail the thread and stay on topic.
On December 19 2014 03:39 totalpigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny. On December 18 2014 21:00 totalpigeon wrote:
There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable. I'm wondering why you think a support KKA can only spare a value point in X. Support Alch wouldn't put points into Greed. Support Gyro (lol) isn't skilling Flak Cannon. I'm not seeing why you need to put more than a single point *maybe* into Tidebringer. You can easily level up X for the cast range buff early game. Not arguing that you can't. Single point in x is nice for team use but you only really get effective offensive capability out of it when you level it for the range. I was just suggesting euls as an option, since you want some mana regen anyway. Maybe I'm still thinking all wrong about this and it's really bottle - travels you want. Value point in tidebringer is pretty pointless I'd say. If you're not gonna max it just ignore it and get stats.
I mean it's just a lot of discussion about support KKA and how to use level 1 X when from level 4 onwards you're going to have a level 2 X which is guaranteed Torrent and/or Boat already.
To me Blink is easily the best initiation item. Especially because Blink range + X range is essentially your pickoff distance and that's too valuable to give up. Maybe Force in certain situations.
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SoCal8910 Posts
i gotta say, this support kunkka into arrow into torrent wombo combo from secret right now is soooooo nasty.
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this brought tears of joy to my eyes. My favorite hero brought to the only role all of my friends refuse to play.
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If you play supportkunka in 6.83, i'd say urn, forcestaff or veil can be a core item. Urn cancels blinkdagger so no escaping my boats and torrents anymore + stats. Forcestaff has some synergies with the -X-spot positioning on an ally or yourself + stats. Veil can be core too on supportkunkka mid/lategame + a early nulls is nice. The 900 kunkka nukecombo with delay, gives noobs like me time to cast the veil active for atleast 225damage more from your spells alone.
Boat effects are so huge now in a teamfight lineup: 1000*425 aoe 1.5 seconds stun+10% ms whole team + rumeffects 10 seconds whole team and all that on a 40 second cooldown is just ridiculous. In a supportcombo on first glance i'd say pair him up with bane. Bane can help setup easy torrents+control singletargets (bkb piercing ability) where kunka's abilities are more aoe and buff based.
E: And what i hope can be a fun herocombo is gyro+kunka, havent tested it : *lvl1 homing missile into a torrent -or- a boat into a calldown -or- Xspot+rocketbarrage for diving towers to get kills.
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United States47024 Posts
They're all nice items to have, but again, Kunkka simply isn't dependent enough on a particular item (except maybe Blink if your team needs you to Blink-X lead off) for anything to be considered "core".
Your team's needs shape your item selection far more than any pre-selected core.
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I'm not convinced yet about the blink on supportkunkka yango (maybe in the future).
-X- range 1000, with nightvision 800
-X- range 1000 + forcestaff range 600 + reactiontime, with daytime vision 1800
Forcestaff offers: stats, more utility options icw -X-spot, can save allies, cant be cancelled and has cheaper components which have atleast some value for a kunka. Its not like supportkunka's effectiveness is that dependant on a blinkdagger like with SK or ES or im wrong?
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Force staff has a travel time and with xmts cast time the combination of the two should be enough for other heroes to blink or jump away. You can't really just add up the distances and hope it works out.
Plus blink dagger can let you initiate onto warded or visioned areas that are >1600 range away which is a pretty common scenario.
Even with a long cast range on xmts, force staff is not interchangeable with blink.
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SoCal8910 Posts
What about eul's -> torrent -> boat? Euls helps with mana issues which is nice and can give you near guaranteed torrent (think Lina's combo).
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2014 04:35 BluemoonSC wrote:
What about eul's -> torrent -> boat? Euls helps with mana issues which is nice and can give you near guaranteed torrent (think Lina's combo).
You're going to have X maxed before you could afford Eul's as support Kunkka and rank 4 X->Torrent has vastly superior range to Eul's->Torrent.
Eul's->Torrent actually isn't more reliable than X->Torrent because Eul's delay is 2.5 while Torrent is 0.4+1.6. You still have to know the timing, which mean's there's no real advantage to it over X->Torrent once you've practiced X->Torrent enough.
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EPT
