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On November 25 2015 23:11 Velr wrote:
And till lvl 6/7 you have 0 lane presence and just get bullied around.
Then on lvl 7+ you need to gank and be succsesfull or your fucked because you have no farming/pushing ability.
And biggest question: If you neglect Tidebringer on a core Kunkka, why not just pick Qop, Brewmaster or any other ganking/roaming hero...
You have a 520+ Burst combo at level 6 every 60s.
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And need a basetrip (or at least a rune) inbetween each use and can do nothing else and totally fall off later.
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Well XMTS is the main reason why you would pick Kunkka now anyway. Many heroes have better burst than him, better laning presence etc, but none of them have a setup as good as XMTS. His initiation at that stage is unparalleled, especially since you don't need any items to do so. Plus, he can also just XMTS -> TP to refill his bottle if necessary.
Anyway I just reread your post, and I disagree at your comment on non farm/pushing ability. The common build for core Kunkka would be 1/4/4/1. It's not like you're delaying Tidebringer till 12/13/14.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 25 2015 23:57 Velr wrote:
And need a basetrip (or at least a rune) inbetween each use and can do nothing else and totally fall off later.
You actually don't fall off since CoCo's rum remains one of the most powerful defensive buffs against burst damage the whole game.
Most similarly powerful anti-burst defensive skills are only single-target.
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Ship is awesome, no contra there.
But having him run in Mid "just" for Ship and some ganking potential just isn't worth it?
I love the hero but he just feels so meh atm  .
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kunkka has a 1000 initiation range with 3s of stun and a pretty good amount of damage
hes probably one of the best gankers in the game
i think 4142 is the better build most of the time
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What if boat stuns magic immune heroes. Heh.
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On November 25 2015 23:42 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 23:11 Velr wrote:
And till lvl 6/7 you have 0 lane presence and just get bullied around.
Then on lvl 7+ you need to gank and be succsesfull or your fucked because you have no farming/pushing ability.
And biggest question: If you neglect Tidebringer on a core Kunkka, why not just pick Qop, Brewmaster or any other ganking/roaming hero... You have a 520+ Burst combo at level 6 every 60s.
You're dead weight prior to level 6, and if you're ran as a support it takes forever for you to get there. The hero is simply not that good outside of some niche line-ups and needs a total revamp of his skillset, or some major buffs to get him back into consistent competitive play.
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Hes basically a shit version of disruptor in the early game, and a shit version of ember spirit in the late game.
Until the hero gets considerably buffed hes going to remain terrible.
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I feel his biggest weakness is his inability to boat close range x target
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After level 6 he is a better version of disruptor though in terms of gank/burst. I mean the only similarity between them is glimpse and x, and they serve different purposes.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On November 30 2015 12:51 gaijindash wrote:
Hes basically a shit version of disruptor in the early game, and a shit version of ember spirit in the late game.
Until the hero gets considerably buffed hes going to remain terrible.
x'ing yourself + blink + tidebringer is almost safer than ember spirit lategame. almost.
that said, kunkka is definitely in need of a buff or he's destined to be a support-y hero for a while.
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On November 30 2015 21:16 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2015 12:51 gaijindash wrote:
Hes basically a shit version of disruptor in the early game, and a shit version of ember spirit in the late game.
Until the hero gets considerably buffed hes going to remain terrible. x'ing yourself + blink + tidebringer is almost safer than ember spirit lategame. almost. that said, kunkka is definitely in need of a buff or he's destined to be a support-y hero for a while.
Yeah but ember just presses one button so its a lot less effort and he farms easier early one especially after BF.
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Ember also doesn't fall over like (carry-) Kunkka when there are 1-2 Blademails ^^.
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I wish this hero comes back into the meta, but so many heroes counter this guy and so many heroes perform his role better than him. Maybe they should restructure the entire hero like phantom lancer and make him actually do stuff really well unless the opponent outplays or picks a hardcounter. I was thinking maybe make his boat a third skill and make the cleave the ulti instead such that he has the best cleave in the entire hero pool, make it work something like Riki's ult, you can cleave like 600 range in front of you with extra dmg for 3 instances of something. For his boat, keep the aura but remove the skill entirely so that for every level, when an ally hero is around, they receive the dmg reduction buff, so it works something like bristleback. I think that will make him a viable hero early and late game with good initiation, tankiness and good dmg. Any thoughts?
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On December 01 2015 02:20 hashmon wrote:
I wish this hero comes back into the meta, but so many heroes counter this guy and so many heroes perform his role better than him. Maybe they should restructure the entire hero like phantom lancer and make him actually do stuff really well unless the opponent outplays or picks a hardcounter. I was thinking maybe make his boat a third skill and make the cleave the ulti instead such that he has the best cleave in the entire hero pool, make it work something like Riki's ult, you can cleave like 600 range in front of you with extra dmg for 3 instances of something. For his boat, keep the aura but remove the skill entirely so that for every level, when an ally hero is around, they receive the dmg reduction buff, so it works something like bristleback. I think that will make him a viable hero early and late game with good initiation, tankiness and good dmg. Any thoughts?
Sounds weaker.
This hero's main problem is that as a caster, he falls off when there's bkbs. His spells are not instant disables, doesn't pierce bkb, doesn't have crazy 'laguna-ish' damage, the aoe burst needs time to setup unlike sonic wave etc. I'll ignore his hitter style since that's just a shit version of ember.
Look at common supports. Lion with instant disable. Lina with crazy burst. Bane with bkb piercing disable. Rubick with instant disable + ulti. Es with instant disable + space control. So even with bkb, these heroes can still be relevant.
Oh and of course caster kunkka has shit 1-5.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean that'd still be fine if we were playing teamcomps that leverage Ghost Ship's damage delay because for the kind of teams it's good for, it's actually better than Shallow Grave since it gets multiple people.
But with the way the game plays now, Shallow Grave and Cold Embrace are just better in this regard and have been for a long time. Related to a longer-term problem where Str-based fighting carries like CK, carry Slardar, Sven, DK, etc. have not been appealing for a long time.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 01 2015 00:44 Velr wrote:
Ember also doesn't fall over like (carry-) Kunkka when there are 1-2 Blademails ^^.
well, thats one reason you'd be picking up a blink or lothar as a core kunkka.
blink/lothar + tidebringer is a lot safer than just casually walking up to the wave and chopping it. x'ing yourself a good distance away, walking up, then blinking w/ max blink range and immediately x'ing back won't give most players time to react with their blademails
is the cast animation on 'return' long enough to get caught by a really quick disable tho?
but like gaijindash said, ember does this with one button, which is easier.
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if ur opponents are ready they can probably blademail, blademail doesnt even do that much to kunkka tho
and yes the cast animation on return is pretty long
u can ofc bypass this by waiting until x almost expires but thats not always ideal
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Kunkka has good setup but lack mobility for himself, whereas ember have instant lockdown/burst and on top of that unparalleled mobility for both offensive and defensive purposes, ember can be aggressive without overcommitting whereas kunkka being caught out of positionmeans certain death. Think of this scenario: you see a qop farming by herself in lane, kunkka went to xmark her and now has to wait for it to happen while her team could've already be on the way for assistance, and if it turns out she has backup kunkka will most certainly die; whereas an ember immediately initiate on her, and should danger arise he just dodge some dmg/disable with sleight of fist and wait for his remnant CD. Who is easier for people to gank, ember or kunkka? I think the answer to that is quite clear.
Kunkka's lack of popularity is not because he doesn't suit the meta, he is absolutely underpowered right now and needs rework. But meanwhile feel free to play him because you are stubborn and feed your mmr to me, I won't say no to that.
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EPT
