EPT[Hero] Kunkka - Page 7
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
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SQWKZ
Finland720 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 22 2015 23:45 SQWKZ wrote: That comparison isn't one I'd have thought of making. The cleave is kind of an extra along with the early-mid initiation and team fight potential, no? Elite Wolves had a cool game a while back with the pastor on mid admiral. Had a qop offlane that game, and it feels like a core kunkka needs two additional farmers to be worth it in general. Kunkka is all about team fighting, and Xin is a better ganker, better fighter, and better late game overall. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
His initiation range is almost unmatched early on when theres no Blink daggers. Its somewhat comparable to facing a disruptor where you have to be ready to be pulled back from very far away into a waiting team. But he does need a team with him since he just provides the control, not the damage. Which makes it much harder to use in pubs, people have to be expecting you to setup kills for them and play accordingly. But it can be really annoying to face a Kunkka knowing you can get X'd from fog so easily. Would be super fun to see what pro could do with him. For all we know he could be super viable if they just try it out. He does have some pretty big laning issues though, where he does very little in lane and can have a really hard time dealing with those popular strong aggro duals. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
But when he has his levels, he is an item independent ganker. Crazy strong in early mid game, 1000 range initiation with reliable 580-700 burst nuke from level 7 onwards. Throw in 1-2 right clicks and urn damage. Why do pub non core kunkka even bother with tidebringer. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
as silly as that sounds, that's just too greedy. on top of that, so many ways to create a punishing lane against kunkka support. the one good thing if we were to draw parallels is that it's about as potent as light strike array with a slightly longer CD and some extra damage thrown on top. it has a long cast range, past that of a blink dagger. other than that, it's very unreliable to hit without high levels of X or someone else setting it up. although his level 6 ulti at a good time is amazing and has low CD, he has around 300MP at level 6 which is barely enough for the fullcombo. anyone who plays kunkka knows he has serious mana issues. and let's be honest, he is no undying when it comes to laning. kunkka is like a long range, low mana lina that eventually makes his laning partner suffer. i only play core kunkka to prove a point or for shennanigans, not because he's actually or secretly good right now. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 23 2015 15:52 TheYango wrote: Pretty much the only "unique" thing Kunkka brings to the table is the Coco's Rum buff from his ulti (which is still an unmatched defensive buff against burst damage). But the effectiveness Coco's Rum has no dependence on items or even levels (the buff is equally powerful at all ranks of Ghost Ship), which is why there's more draw to him being a support than a core in the last few years. His ability to support sucks because his mana costs are through the roof and his laning presence blows. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
he needs to have crazy farm to fight when he needs to in the current meta, so unless you snowball, I don't really see him being relevant as a core. that said, I think this has been in the discussion for 1 or 2 patches now (not including 6.84). @mana concerns - sure his mana costs are high given his mana pool, but maybe arcanes + force would be appropriate? an urn? tranqs + soul ring? or you could always get a bottle because you can x yourself, tp home, bottle up, then come back similar to ember. but imo TPs are best saved for counter ganks. @level concerns - I wanna echo what Duck- said. you don't take tide bringer, so your other skills make you similar to any other support that requires levels to be successful. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10681 Posts
What it could be? I don't know but i think this would be a better way to improve him instead of just dangling with Manacost/X-Range/Torrent-Range and all the stuff the Frog tried. Just Brainstorming... Why not make Tidebringer castable on other heroes and units (but it would double your CD or something like that)... | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
Basically, I think the hero is in a good spot right now conceptually. Seems like he could do with just some stat increases to push him towards more viable territory. Could maybe give him another 5 armour or something silly to make him able to harass people out of lane like an Ogre. Or perhaps a lower mana cost on Torrent (say, 100) and X (say, 25) would be a better buff. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2015 16:57 DucK- wrote: Why do pub non core kunkka even bother with tidebringer. You answered your own question. Nobody in pubs sees themselves as a non-core even when they're on a non-farming role. On November 24 2015 06:21 BluemoonSC wrote: kunkka isn't being played as a support these days? Kunkka's basically only been played as support this year in competitive. You have to go back to before TI4 (well before the X change) before you could say that core Kunkka is more prevalent than support. | ||
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Saki [NETOGE]
United States235 Posts
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Saki [NETOGE]
United States235 Posts
On November 24 2015 10:31 FuzzyJAM wrote: A simple change could be to make Tidebringer a toggle ability so that you're never forced to waste it or push lanes when you don't want to. But maybe that changes the dynamic of the hero too much - Tidebringer is a cool thing to have to work around. Basically, I think the hero is in a good spot right now conceptually. Seems like he could do with just some stat increases to push him towards more viable territory. Could maybe give him another 5 armour or something silly to make him able to harass people out of lane like an Ogre. Or perhaps a lower mana cost on Torrent (say, 100) and X (say, 25) would be a better buff. Would giving tidebringer a charge system(like shrapnel) make him broken? | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
I put him on the same boat as sven in that he absolutely needs items to continue scaling. as a fighting carry, both of those heroes still need to predominantly farm if the snowball doesn't roll early. there are -many- heroes on the other side that make it so difficult and give them hardship. I don't even want to think about the 1 or 2 position matchups, it can get so lopsided. for the most part, the only item build I used in the very highskill bracket for core kunkka is the bfury blink rush. its been a really long time and I don't really remember the timing, but I believe it's around 20, 21 minutes. honestly it's still so volatile and useless in fights. it's just good for farming and grabbing the subsequent Daedalus. better teams can just position around and push down objectives more reliably. the rosh fight is great, imo bkb is needed if it goes late, and the fullcombo is nasty for the first few teamfights. annnd of course, that fucking Daedalus crit at the 30m mark can change the tide. if tidebringer could proc on-hits like abyssal or skadi slow to all targets in range of it, that'd be fucking sick, my god. and would offset the amount of farm it requires. the problem is the whole x-blink crap. I'm sure someone's messed around with octarine crap on kunkka. but afraid my love for the admiral... that ship as sailed. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
also early bots is so strong on this hero | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10681 Posts
So you need to Skill it (sadly it also sucks on lvl 1 and 2), also you need 1 Point in torrent becauseelse you have no lockdown. I still think the X Change was a nerf, before lvl 1 was "okish" and lvl 2 was awesome, now its just bad at lvl 1 and still bad at lvl 2. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
tidebringer doesnt even do that much unless u get 4 points in it | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10681 Posts
Then on lvl 7+ you need to gank and be succsesfull or your fucked because you have no farming/pushing ability. And biggest question: If you neglect Tidebringer on a core Kunkka, why not just pick Qop, Brewmaster or any other ganking/roaming hero... | ||
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