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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/d/d9/Kunkka_large.png) Kunkka, the Admiral
As The Admiral of the mighty Claddish Navy, Kunkka was charged with protecting the isles of his homeland when the demons of the Cataract made a concerted grab at the lands of men. After years of small sorties, and increasingly bold and devastating attacks, the demon fleet flung all its carnivorous ships at the Trembling Isle. Desperate, the Suicide-Mages of Cladd committed their ultimate rite, summoning a host of ancestral spirits to protect the fleet. Against the demons, this was just barely enough to turn the tide. As Kunkka watched the demons take his ships down one by one, he had the satisfaction of wearing away their fleet with his ancestral magic. But at the battle's peak, something in the clash of demons, men and atavistic spirits must have stirred a fourth power that had been slumbering in the depths. The waves rose up in towering spouts around the few remaining ships, and Maelrawn the Tentacular appeared amid the fray. His tendrils wove among the ships, drawing demon and human craft together, churning the water and wind into a raging chaos. What happened in the crucible of that storm, none may truly say. The Cataract roars off into the void, deserted by its former denizens. Kunkka is now The Admiral of but one ship, a ghostly rig which endlessly replays the final seconds of its destruction. Whether he died in that crash is anyone's guess. Not even Tidehunter, who summoned Maelrawn, knows for sure.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/c/c0/Kunkka_icon.png)  Kunkka
Yo ho ho! Kunkka discussion!
6.86 buffs:
- Added Scepter to Kunkka
- Torrent now gives your team vision over target area immediately upon cast, rather than just when triggering
- Tidebringer is now an autocast ability, will only trigger if turned on or cast directly on the target
- Tidebringer damage bonus increased from 20/35/50/65 to 25/40/55/70
- Tidebringer AoE from rescaled 500/500/500/600 to 450/500/550/600
- Ghost Ship mana cost reduced from 150/200/250 to 125/175/225
+ Show Spoiler [List of all hero discussion threads] +
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Isn't it kinda shitty Kunkka can get out-carried easily but he has an amazing cleave that can really make players be creative about their cleaves. However, he can still be relevant late-game with his good initiations but he's not gonna be the main damage dealer in teamfights.
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More teams should pick him as a support. Mym crit used to play support kunkka with quite high success. Skill set wise, this hero is relevant throughout. Xmts is a great initiation spell, and best of all his whole combo is spammable yet powerful
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Now that I think about it, he does seem like a pretty strong support. I imagine most people are reluctant to use him as a support because you would "waste" the Tidebringer cleave. Ghost ship is so damn good, but some people don't seem to realize it lands 1000 units in front of you. Though I suppose the damage reduction is good even if you launch a failboat.
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He's not that good as a support unless your team synergizes with him well. I've picked him as part of an aggressive trilane with a farming 1 role in captain's mode but he fails really hard in random pub drafts as one. My draft was I think kunkka SD Dazzle in a trilane and mirana or a hard carry solo safelane. A few months ago he was picked mid and if I remember correctly x-mark was leveled over torrent and was used as a setup for the boat.
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kunkka requires pretty decent skill to execute well. singsing is godlike with kunkka even when hes trolling.
kunkka support seems dumb unless the other team is awful. hero needs levels.
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DK plays him occasionally, mostly as a mid hero for mushi. In one occasion lanm played him 4th position though. 3 points in X allows for X->boat->torrent combo as well as increased cast range for just X->torrent.
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Liquid TC played him a couple of times in the qualifiers mid. I watched some of his replays and by far the most helpful thing I have learned is his torrent combos with his X at lvl 2 and works perfectly with boat at lvl 3.
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EG ran him as a support recently after the buff it seemed to do pretty well around their line ups.
I thought he would've been picked more last patch against all these push strat lineups but I don't think I saw him once, even after the buff he doesn't get picked often. I guess there are better heroes that fill that role better than him.
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I can see how the x buff can make him a decent niche support.
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Regardless of roles, xmts should be maxed either first or second over torrent. The additional initiation range provides way more usefulness then that little bit of extra damage.
Boat is such a good skill even if you missed it. But with xmts, there's really no reason to be missing it early on.
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I really like that hero, but I have a terrible winrate. Most of the times I just fuck around with boats/torrents and when I play well we will lose in the lategame. It's sad ._.
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I like xiao8's skill build which is 2/4/2/1. Kinda like it since it give decent torrent damage plus max tide. and dont forget xmts for chasing.
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On May 29 2014 16:20 Fwizzz wrote:
I like xiao8's skill build which is 2/4/2/1. Kinda like it since it give decent torrent damage plus max tide. and dont forget xmts for chasing.
I prefer 1-4-3-1 for solo build. Though its a matter of preference.
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I'm currently using either a 2-1-2-1 or 1-2-2-1 build by 6, usually good for an easy kill. The first build gives you slightly better damage on the combo, but the second allows you to harass a bit harder which means you often need less burst on the kill combo.
Note that boat can be dodged at rank 2 if you run right at Kunkka as soon as torrent ends, so at higher skill levels 3 ranks of x are probably better - either wait for 7 or go 1-1-3-1. This build doesn't give you the greatest lane control though - your capacity for harass is very low.
Midgame I have been thinking about skipping rank 2 boat until 14. The ult doesn't scale particularly well, although the cooldown reduction is nice. 100 bonus damage per additional rank (which is reduced to 75 by resistance), half of the time the boat misses, and half of the rest of the time you only hit one enemy hero. The increased mana cost is also noticeable.
I suppose if you are running a mid Kunkka who is appropriately itemised, 2 ranks of boat combined with 1 tidebringer cleave should just about clear a creepwave. Might be situationally useful in this regard.
Compare this to all of his other skills, which scale exceptionally well with levels.
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Ghost Ship is objectively the best ult in the game:
- AoE stun
- AoE damage
- 10s of literally taking no damage
- Cooldown of only 40s
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On May 29 2014 23:03 Terrorbladder wrote:
Ghost Ship is objectively the best ult in the game:
- AoE stun
- AoE damage
- 10s of literally taking no damage
- Cooldown of only 40s
And the addition of visualizing its target area has done it a heck of a lot more predictable to use, at least for me.
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Croatia9503 Posts
On May 29 2014 02:55 biotechKazoo wrote:
Isn't it kinda shitty Kunkka can get out-carried easily but he has an amazing cleave that can really make players be creative about their cleaves. However, he can still be relevant late-game with his good initiations but he's not gonna be the main damage dealer in teamfights.
Say that to my triple daedalus build: http://dotabuff.com/matches/589011969
Kunkka late game is all about hitting those ~1k+ crits (along with boat and torrent).
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I feel very guilty but im trying to play him as a support in the 2.5k trench atm. It is easy to fool urself how good of a support he can be, i like it! 3 games until now in AP with this trollish build, havent lost yet, oelala...
Until now I skilled 1131 --> 4132 --> 4434. I never skilled X marks the spot above lvl 3 because it synergised better with the ultimate (less failboats helped me alot in being usefull as a support). There is a good reason why i am still stuck in the trench i think, haha.
Core
1x Manaboot
1x Urn
1x Wand
After that i went mek, sange, halberd until now, but these followup items seems situational ocourse.
As a support phaseboots aint gonna do shit and I will not have good farm to crit enough damage to make it worth while, so just straight up str+mana/hpregen items worked out well.
I think liquid.demon gave me evil thoughts!
Edit: If you make him support with LC, LC doesnt need blink or SB to connect. And because the kunka's combo has a shorter cooldown then LC ulti + 10seconds rum, instakills haha:D
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I have not experimented, but why would you want rank 1 tide over higher rank in torrent as a support? As in why not 2-0-3-1 instead of 1-1-3-1
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Mushi did it a couple of times, i copied that because godz said it was easier (and laserist pointed it out it was mushi, i forgot). The better you are at adjusting your combotimings with kunka, the greedier you can skill i guess. 1131 is a garanteed combo, even for mechanically lesser skilled people It really hard to fu^%k the combo up with 3 points in X, almost undoable because the ultimate also has a 3second delay.
So thats total garanteed damage at lvl 6, even in the trench: 400 & 120 + 150 from 2 rightclicks = 670 damage in mearly 2 seconds
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Meanwhile.... in the trench...
![[image loading]](http://s27.postimg.org/7z9xbcy4z/kunka.gif)
If i do a standard kunkabuild for supportkunka i loose the trenchgame
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On May 30 2014 08:37 govie wrote:Meanwhile.... in the trench... If i do a standard kunkabuild for supportkunka i loose the trenchgame
Haha so weird!
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On May 30 2014 08:37 govie wrote:Meanwhile.... in the trench... If i do a standard kunkabuild for supportkunka i loose the trenchgame
how can you keep your teammates from flaming you?
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every time i play this hero i miss half my torrents and 75% of my boats, dont time my x-mark correctly, and basically make all the same fumbles that your average pub kunkka makes.
but then when im playing against this hero as rubick, and i steal torrent or ghostship, i seem to hit them way more consistently, despite the fact that i dont have kunkkas other skills to set them up with. its actually quite disheartening, cuz kunkka is one of my favorite heroes to play middle, but i just play so bad when i get him.
still hes such a quick farmer that it oftentimes doesnt matter if youre not a pro with torrent/x/boat, those crits can win games by themselves. really wish he'd break into the pro meta
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On May 30 2014 09:58 icystorage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 08:37 govie wrote:Meanwhile.... in the trench... If i do a standard kunkabuild for supportkunka i loose the trenchgame how can you keep your teammates from flaming you?
I tell them during the pickingstage that im on a 7 game winningstreak with soeportkoenka In the trench AP is a cancerous gamemode. Teams are allready pleased when someone says he will support and will not steal lasthits i guess.
Some low KDA's are decieving because most enemies react to kunka as he is a glasscannon, which results in me getting focussed down first. But because i have alot of HP, i create extra time for our hardhitters to deal damage and win us the teamfight. Kunka with a urn+sange+mek feels like your playing with centaur warrunner, so tanky i like it!
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For people trying to learn Kunkka and have trouble with the timing of spells, don't be afraid to set up a private lobby game with bots just to practice your combo timings. It's an easy and pressure-less environment to get a feel for 3 pts X and 4 pts X combos. While its always ideal to have your boat hit, just getting it off for Coco Rum is pretty huge already.
Another thing to be weary of is when your tidebringer is on CD during teamfights. In a big teamfight you can autoattack whoever but when you see your tidebringer coming off cd, you need to concentrate on what you are hitting to maximize cleaving. It's worth it to sacrifice a couple regular autoattacks on a target if it means you are putting yourself in a position to get a good cleave on multiples. Getting good cleaves in the middle of chaotic teamfights is probably the most overlooked aspect of Kunkka play. I don't know of any way to directly practice this. It just comes with experience I guess.
Also don't forget to abuse X for little things like free fountain tp bottling, sieging high ground etc. There are so many applications of this spell.
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Okay so for support Kunkka I'm honestly not sure how to itemize him.
I feel like urn into mana boots is the best start for him, but after that I'm not sure what is really core. I don't think that he carries anything particularly well. Maybe a vlads or something, but outsider of that I just am lost.
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Croatia9503 Posts
Blink for gank/initiation (with an X). Daedalus for late game physical damage (if you sense the game will go there and your team needs more physical damage). Shadow blade to force your opponents to carry detection if they don't need to otherwise. I would prefer to go drums instead of urn to make him a little bit more survivable.
All in all, Kunkka depends much more on how you play him rather than what items you make.
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maybe this is just me? but I think, since that patch, you only need 2 levels in X to land the combo in sync if you cast torrent right after.
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On July 23 2014 13:17 jazzbassmatt wrote:
maybe this is just me? but I think, since that patch, you only need 2 levels in X to land the combo in sync if you cast torrent right after.
It has always been the case. You can even do it with 1 point xmts, but the combo is little different and still somewhat reliant on predicting. The main draw of maxing xmts is the range of the setup.
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On July 23 2014 13:17 jazzbassmatt wrote:
maybe this is just me? but I think, since that patch, you only need 2 levels in X to land the combo in sync if you cast torrent right after.
It always requires 2 xmark to land a torrent and 3 xmark to land a boat if you are in a proper distance(1k I assume). Most people leave xmark at 2 to land a torrent and a boat afterwards. I remember Mushi did some gimmicky 1-1-3-1 build to ensure the boat always hits since the boat damage is insane. Also if you torrent after the boat, you use the slow of the torrent to full extent, otherwise the profit is lost.
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You can dodge the boat followup from 2 xmark - torrent if you walk towards (±~45°) kunkka after the torrent. This doesn't always feel like the most sensible thing to do because kunkka + potentially 4 other heroes are usually charging at you from that direction, but it is a very easy way to avoid the boat damage + stun. Experienced doto gamers will know this and you will miss the boat from 2 xmark without any additional external factors, hence the Mushi 3 xmark build.
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On July 23 2014 19:09 totalpigeon wrote:
You can dodge the boat followup from 2 xmark - torrent if you walk towards (±~45°) kunkka after the torrent. This doesn't always feel like the most sensible thing to do because kunkka + potentially 4 other heroes are usually charging at you from that direction, but it is a very easy way to avoid the boat damage + stun. Experienced doto gamers will know this and you will miss the boat from 2 xmark without any additional external factors, hence the Mushi 3 xmark build.
I don't think you can dodge 2 xmark - torrent - boat combo which is thrown from optimal distance(1k?) and centered right at you. Maybe if you have an insane ms(race car build, max ms DP or bs bullshit). I might be wrong since I never played against any good players.
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2 xmark only has 650 range. It's a testament to the sheer size of the boats aoe that it clips it at all.
I suppose if you can reposition to 1k range from the torrent quickly you could throw a boat which can't be dodged (blink, earth spirit pull, self x (refresher orb for double x required) etc). Not sure if the slow duration from higher torrent levels + something like phase on kunkka is enough time to reposition, however this is becoming significantly more difficult to execute correctly.
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you totally can dodge it if you walk towards kunkka or if you have a blink hence 1-1-3-1 best build
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On July 23 2014 20:45 totalpigeon wrote:
2 xmark only has 650 range. It's a testament to the sheer size of the boats aoe that it clips it at all.
I suppose if you can reposition to 1k range from the torrent quickly you could throw a boat which can't be dodged (blink, earth spirit pull, self x (refresher orb for double x required) etc). Not sure if the slow duration from higher torrent levels + something like phase on kunkka is enough time to reposition, however this is becoming significantly more difficult to execute correctly.
I take the aoe into account.
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On July 23 2014 20:45 totalpigeon wrote:
2 xmark only has 650 range. It's a testament to the sheer size of the boats aoe that it clips it at all.
I suppose if you can reposition to 1k range from the torrent quickly you could throw a boat which can't be dodged (blink, earth spirit pull, self x (refresher orb for double x required) etc). Not sure if the slow duration from higher torrent levels + something like phase on kunkka is enough time to reposition, however this is becoming significantly more difficult to execute correctly.
level 2 xmark --> torrent --> walk back a little --> boat
I'm pretty sure the slow from the torrent makes that undodgeable
As for help with timings, if you are not used to kunkka spell timings then whenever you ask yourself "what is this spell timing?" the answer is always "longer than you think". Sounds janky, I know, but it helped me a lot for some reason when I thought of it that way.
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Why hasn't Valve fixed refresher kunkka yet wtf
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What's wrong with refresher kunkka?
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On July 28 2014 08:03 GtC wrote:
What's wrong with refresher kunkka?
Rum stacks additively atm. His team becomes immortal.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 28 2014 08:22 Belisarius wrote:Rum stacks additively atm. His team becomes immortal.
Hohoho, now that sounds fun.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 28 2014 08:22 Belisarius wrote:Rum stacks additively atm. His team becomes immortal.
That's how it's SUPPOSED to work.
Unfortunately it's bugged at the moment to NOT stack, and just refresh the duration of the Rum buff:
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=141841
I also tested this just now and the bug is still there.
Also, X-marks also interacts incorrectly with Refresher.
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Also only the first boat does damage and stun if you use both. I think its still possible to get like a 12 second stun though with refresher if you use everything in the correct order.
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On July 28 2014 08:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 08:22 Belisarius wrote:On July 28 2014 08:03 GtC wrote:
What's wrong with refresher kunkka? Rum stacks additively atm. His team becomes immortal. That's how it's SUPPOSED to work. Unfortunately it's bugged at the moment to NOT stack, and just refresh the duration of the Rum buff: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=141841I also tested this just now and the bug is still there. Also, X-marks also interacts incorrectly with Refresher.
Yeah fair enough. That's the thread I'd seen but I clearly just remembered the immortal part and decided that must have been the bug.
Can't help but feel like the D2 behaviour is on the "intended" pile, then.
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so this hero is no longer straight-up easy for kills, but I don't understand how he is leveled anymore?
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Imho he is just worse in earlygame now because of the X-Range nerf.
X before lvl 3 has shit range.
Before Kunkka was usefull with 1 Torrent/2X... Now he basically Needs 3X to get the same result.
No clue why they would do that to him.
If i read correctly X now goes thru BKB? That makes him better mid/late but still...
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On December 17 2014 19:26 Velr wrote:
Imho he is just worse in earlygame now because of the X-Range nerf.
X before lvl 3 has shit range.
Before Kunkka was usefull with 1 Torrent/2X... Now he basically Needs 3X to get the same result.
No clue why they would do that to him.
If i read correctly X now goes thru BKB? That makes him better mid/late but still...
goes through allied BKB
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On December 17 2014 18:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
so this hero is no longer straight-up easy for kills, but I don't understand how he is leveled anymore?
I think you cannot hit x-mark boat until level 4 if the opponent knows what to do. Xmark is 750 range in level 3 and boat is 1k distance to 425 width so you need some form of initiation from teammates or cover the boat well.
It might be a good idea to max tidebringer early for lane dominance, aim for a midas into late game with 1.5k+ crits. This hero seems to need more and more levels than before.
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The x change gives kunkka a superb 1 point utility spell for early game. Imagine being solo offlane against him, kunkka as core or support. If three show up to kill you and he can anywhere get close to you, your escape is delayed by 4 whole seconds at a minimum, and likely you will be launched into a torrent on return which means ~ 6-7 seconds of the enemy heroes getting to autoattack you for free. And no tp out allowed either.
It's a stronger escape for him too - if you are being initiated on, you can x someone and run to get away and they will be a long way back rather than the two steps back they used to be.
It's also an excellent value point for both fountain trips (you or an ally) and also a very efficient and safe way to go collect a rune, or even to farm in a dangerous lane. It's probably a situational value point somewhere in levels 3-5 as a core.
Tbh, I think the change also makes him much more viable in a support and offlane role.
Support you probably you would go 4-1-1-1, levelling torrent where possible. That disgusting tinker - kunkka combo (where kunkka stands in the fountain x'ing tinker and tinker just goes full potato mode across the map), could now also be run with a support kunkka who doesn't need any farm at all, just stacking for other cores all early game. Perhaps get lvl 1 torrent to double stack hard camps every minute, then take enough exp for lvl 2 and x and you are practically set for the rest of the game.
Offlane, he can play very aggressively against even very high kill potential lanes, going up for a last hit and x'ing back (for free now) to the tower when necessary. You can even very safely go and contest / ward the pull camp. If he takes a lot of damage, he can get a ~5s fountain trip for 100g. Offlane bottle rush might well be viable, as that fountain trip also gives you a quick refill so you don't even need to take the courier away from your other lanes.
Basically the 4s and 8s times at level 1 open up so many options that I think they will give Kunkka a huge amount of depth early game that wasn't there before. Much more interesting and high utility hero as a result, and well worth losing some range over.
1 point might even be enough time to x someone and walk far enough away to chain torrent boat. Need to test this. Lvl 2 is definitely enough. But like Velr says, landing your x on the enemy is now the main problem.
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I think there's no way getting around the X changes, you either max it or simply get a value point.
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Well, if you max x first you have no damage or farming capability. Don't think its an option really. The value point is great though.
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The range is awful though, but I guess it just means you're not a solo killer or initiator.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 17 2014 20:01 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 18:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
so this hero is no longer straight-up easy for kills, but I don't understand how he is leveled anymore? I think you cannot hit x-mark boat until level 4 if the opponent knows what to do. Xmark is 750 range in level 3 and boat is 1k distance to 425 width so you need some form of initiation from teammates or cover the boat well. It might be a good idea to max tidebringer early for lane dominance, aim for a midas into late game with 1.5k+ crits. This hero seems to need more and more levels than before.
Boat is 425 radius, not 425 width.
You can actually X-boat on rank 2 due to the duration change (you have an extra second to walk back and Ship), but it requires really good timing/range knowledge of X and Ship.
On December 17 2014 20:28 totalpigeon wrote:
1 point might even be enough time to x someone and walk far enough away to chain torrent boat. Need to test this. Lvl 2 is definitely enough. But like Velr says, landing your x on the enemy is now the main problem.
It's not. The minimum distance you can ship someone from is 575 range. The ship delay is 3s while X lasts 4, so you need to walk 225 range, turn 360 degrees, and run through your cast animation, which takes significantly longer than 1s even if you queued everything flawlessly and had 522 MS.
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Not x - boat, x - torrent - boat. You've got about 1.5s of hard disable and a slow in there too then, which would make it a lot closer.
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United States47024 Posts
X-Torrent-Boat should be fine, though again, relies pretty heavily on how well you know the range of Ship and the timing of X relative to his skills.
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On December 17 2014 22:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 20:01 Laserist wrote:On December 17 2014 18:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
so this hero is no longer straight-up easy for kills, but I don't understand how he is leveled anymore? I think you cannot hit x-mark boat until level 4 if the opponent knows what to do. Xmark is 750 range in level 3 and boat is 1k distance to 425 width so you need some form of initiation from teammates or cover the boat well. It might be a good idea to max tidebringer early for lane dominance, aim for a midas into late game with 1.5k+ crits. This hero seems to need more and more levels than before. Boat is 425 radius, not 425 width.
You are right, I look at a wrong source.
I still believe 2 levels xmark + boat is very hard. Either xmark+torrent+boat to use torrent slow, or level xmark more imo.
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Just go into the test client and spend 10 minutes practicing it. I can't believe how many people are whining about the combo online when KKA basically got a huge buff. Like oh no the combo isn't completely braindead anymore but it doesn't even matter if you're a noob as long as you aren't goddamn lazy too.
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I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 17 2014 23:07 TheYango wrote:
X-Torrent-Boat should be fine, though again, relies pretty heavily on how well you know the range of Ship and the timing of X relative to his skills.
I think that the value point is justified at this point. we had this convo a while back about going 1-2-2-1 for x - torrent - ship combo at lvl 6. I think that if you go 2-2-1-1 right now, you can land your full combo if you're good enough.
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I don't know what all the complaining is about the X changes are a much much bigger buff than nerf overall. The support Kunkka is real.
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the guy with the awesome cleave shouldn't be a support .
But thats just my opinion.
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What's with the push to make Kunkka support?
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SoCal8910 Posts
supports with the potential to be semi-carry are good in 6.82+
also bc he has 3 spells that could be just as good on a support nuker.
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There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable.
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On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game.
We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate.
I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny.
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On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate.
I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny.
On December 18 2014 21:00 totalpigeon wrote:
There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable.
I'm wondering why you think a support KKA can only spare a value point in X. Support Alch wouldn't put points into Greed. Support Gyro (lol) isn't skilling Flak Cannon. I'm not seeing why you need to put more than a single point *maybe* into Tidebringer. You can easily level up X for the cast range buff early game.
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On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny.
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/473466-shifting-snows-update-683?page=15#292
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On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny. Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 21:00 totalpigeon wrote:
There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable. I'm wondering why you think a support KKA can only spare a value point in X. Support Alch wouldn't put points into Greed. Support Gyro (lol) isn't skilling Flak Cannon. I'm not seeing why you need to put more than a single point *maybe* into Tidebringer. You can easily level up X for the cast range buff early game.
Not arguing that you can't. Single point in x is nice for team use but you only really get effective offensive capability out of it when you level it for the range. I was just suggesting euls as an option, since you want some mana regen anyway. Maybe I'm still thinking all wrong about this and it's really bottle - travels you want.
Value point in tidebringer is pretty pointless I'd say. If you're not gonna max it just ignore it and get stats.
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United States47024 Posts
Support Kunkka just gets whatever team items the team needs. There's not really a push for specific items so you can get like Meka/Vlad/Halberd/etc.
You still max Tidebringer eventually, it's just ranks 2-4 aren't worth it before you have 4 Torrent 4 X.
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On December 19 2014 02:35 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny. http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/473466-shifting-snows-update-683?page=15#292
If you're going to be pedantic, the context is that being a noob or not doesn't matter. It's looking at a paper change and complaining that it's harder without any effort put into actually trying the combo out in game, at which point it's pretty obvious that it's only a nerf in very niche circumstances (being disabled for 3 seconds between X and torrent for example).
If you're so concerned about forum rules you should stop trying to derail the thread and stay on topic.
On December 19 2014 03:39 totalpigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 00:14 hariooo wrote:On December 19 2014 00:11 hariooo wrote:On December 18 2014 01:09 Laserist wrote:
I didn't know seriously calling people noob is tolerated here. Kunkka is way more than practicing 10 minutes in a local lobby game. We're not talking about learning how to optimize KKA play for the whole game we are literally talking about people who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes learning how to X someone, walk back for one second and turn around for the ultimate. I'm not calling anyone a noob (except maybe you at reading comprehension); I'm calling them lazy and whiny. On December 18 2014 21:00 totalpigeon wrote:
There is no push. He's still a great core. But the change makes running him as a support more viable too, as his x is now a ton better at 1 (mostly when used on self / allies), so he has more utility when he is underleveled / underfarmed.
He wasn't even completely awful at it before. Obviously not tier 1 support but better than many regular cores.
Torrent has stupid good range, 1.5s stun at lvl 1 and scales well for damage and slow.
Lvl 1 Boat is pretty much 90% as good a Lvl 3 Boat, as there is a scaling aspect of the spell based on ally ehp which doesn't rely on your farm or ult level at all.
Arcane boots aren't terrible on him, he has great strength gain per level, he has a decent initiation spell if he gets levels and he can work into a decent fourth core if he gets a good start. He can even stack both radiant hard camps every minute.
You can even get a euls for initiation into torrent / boat if you get the farm, and get stats instead of more x. Easily solves his mana needs like the bfury does for core Kunkka.
I wonder if an early travels + 3-4 bottle push strat based around using the x to refill every 20s could be viable. I'm wondering why you think a support KKA can only spare a value point in X. Support Alch wouldn't put points into Greed. Support Gyro (lol) isn't skilling Flak Cannon. I'm not seeing why you need to put more than a single point *maybe* into Tidebringer. You can easily level up X for the cast range buff early game. Not arguing that you can't. Single point in x is nice for team use but you only really get effective offensive capability out of it when you level it for the range. I was just suggesting euls as an option, since you want some mana regen anyway. Maybe I'm still thinking all wrong about this and it's really bottle - travels you want. Value point in tidebringer is pretty pointless I'd say. If you're not gonna max it just ignore it and get stats.
I mean it's just a lot of discussion about support KKA and how to use level 1 X when from level 4 onwards you're going to have a level 2 X which is guaranteed Torrent and/or Boat already.
To me Blink is easily the best initiation item. Especially because Blink range + X range is essentially your pickoff distance and that's too valuable to give up. Maybe Force in certain situations.
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SoCal8910 Posts
i gotta say, this support kunkka into arrow into torrent wombo combo from secret right now is soooooo nasty.
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this brought tears of joy to my eyes. My favorite hero brought to the only role all of my friends refuse to play.
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If you play supportkunka in 6.83, i'd say urn, forcestaff or veil can be a core item. Urn cancels blinkdagger so no escaping my boats and torrents anymore + stats. Forcestaff has some synergies with the -X-spot positioning on an ally or yourself + stats. Veil can be core too on supportkunkka mid/lategame + a early nulls is nice. The 900 kunkka nukecombo with delay, gives noobs like me time to cast the veil active for atleast 225damage more from your spells alone.
Boat effects are so huge now in a teamfight lineup: 1000*425 aoe 1.5 seconds stun+10% ms whole team + rumeffects 10 seconds whole team and all that on a 40 second cooldown is just ridiculous. In a supportcombo on first glance i'd say pair him up with bane. Bane can help setup easy torrents+control singletargets (bkb piercing ability) where kunka's abilities are more aoe and buff based.
E: And what i hope can be a fun herocombo is gyro+kunka, havent tested it : *lvl1 homing missile into a torrent -or- a boat into a calldown -or- Xspot+rocketbarrage for diving towers to get kills.
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United States47024 Posts
They're all nice items to have, but again, Kunkka simply isn't dependent enough on a particular item (except maybe Blink if your team needs you to Blink-X lead off) for anything to be considered "core".
Your team's needs shape your item selection far more than any pre-selected core.
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I'm not convinced yet about the blink on supportkunkka yango (maybe in the future).
-X- range 1000, with nightvision 800
-X- range 1000 + forcestaff range 600 + reactiontime, with daytime vision 1800
Forcestaff offers: stats, more utility options icw -X-spot, can save allies, cant be cancelled and has cheaper components which have atleast some value for a kunka. Its not like supportkunka's effectiveness is that dependant on a blinkdagger like with SK or ES or im wrong?
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Force staff has a travel time and with xmts cast time the combination of the two should be enough for other heroes to blink or jump away. You can't really just add up the distances and hope it works out.
Plus blink dagger can let you initiate onto warded or visioned areas that are >1600 range away which is a pretty common scenario.
Even with a long cast range on xmts, force staff is not interchangeable with blink.
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SoCal8910 Posts
What about eul's -> torrent -> boat? Euls helps with mana issues which is nice and can give you near guaranteed torrent (think Lina's combo).
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2014 04:35 BluemoonSC wrote:
What about eul's -> torrent -> boat? Euls helps with mana issues which is nice and can give you near guaranteed torrent (think Lina's combo).
You're going to have X maxed before you could afford Eul's as support Kunkka and rank 4 X->Torrent has vastly superior range to Eul's->Torrent.
Eul's->Torrent actually isn't more reliable than X->Torrent because Eul's delay is 2.5 while Torrent is 0.4+1.6. You still have to know the timing, which mean's there's no real advantage to it over X->Torrent once you've practiced X->Torrent enough.
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@logo: Food for thought and practise, it could well be a mmr thing too. At my mediocre level people tend to overextend so much that forcestaff+urn on supports seem really valuable and sometimes overpowered. If i can keep the carry alive im a good support and i do that alot with a forcestaff and an urn! This besides the fact that sniper, tombstone, radiance, plagueward, euls etcetc counters blink which can be quite frustrating when you want to initiate. So. I made it a habit to mostly go forcestaff on a support except on those sandking-like heros. Will try blink to feel a difference ofcourse, see how that fits on a supportkunkka.
@bluemoonSC: I think -X- is the setup for torrent or boat and dont need an euls for a combo. Alot of us just need to practise the combo's more.
Starladder bigdaddynotail supportkunkka (editing the post during the game so we have some stuff noted
Game : Layons vs. Secret (22 december 2014)
Supportcombo : Kunka+Mirana (-x- setup for arrow and other stuff at lvl1)
Starting Items : Naked boot+clarity+tangos --> tp & smoke
............Skillbuild: 0010 --> 2020
20min Items: sentry+manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle
...........Skillbuild: 3041
46 min Items: manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle+forcestaff (against a disruptor)
add. info : only 4 armour at 46 minutes on kunka iirc, which isnt alot against a viper/pa/lc core. Then again, whole draft had weak armour and no aoe armour items on any hero, seems to me secret got outdrafted/itemised this game.
---game over---
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United States47024 Posts
If your team doesn't need you to lead-off with X, you might actually not need either, that's why I hesitated to call Blink core, because unless you HAVE to initiate, all your skills are like 1k range so you don't need Blink to be in range for them.
If you have some more reliable initiating stun like Beastmaster (Beastmaster+Kunkka X->Roar is some old-school DotA 1 shit, lol) you may be better off with a Meka/Halberd/some other team utility item.
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Yeah I don't know why everybody tries to compare Blink with Force Staff all the time. They serve very different functions. Blink is nice on Kunkka for ultra long range initiations, but you really need to be paired with another hero who can take advantage of it to utilize it effectively throughout a game. There's also some X > Blink shenanigans that you can do. Force Staff is much more defensive in nature. Also getting one does not preclude getting the other. It's all situational.
The only thing I think can be considered core on Kunkka now is Bottle with the X changes.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I'm not saying that you would need to use euls in place of x. I'm just curious if it would be a worthwhile pickup on a support kunkka since it could work as a setup in addition to the movespeed and mana.
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I was fooling around a bit, didnt even feel that bad for pubs and its fun. Long range spells and items which makes it pretty easy and save to execute. It solves early game manashits and kunkka's low armour issues aswell. Nice for low priority, haha
Triple barrel shotgunbuild
Early game: 1131 & naked boot + urn + double nulls + consumeables
Goal: 4142 etcetc & tq + urn + veil (+dagon)
1. Outputdamage of the triple barrel shotgun with the above items in the lategame is: (600+300+900+150) *1,25= 1850 *1,25 = 2313 damage, eat that!
2. -X- initiationrange is 1000
3. Dagon 800 range, still a pretty safe.
Just for fun, spreading ideas like they do on www.ted.com
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It's more like 2k since Dagon does 800 not 900 and Urn isn't going to outdamage even regen by the time you have 12k gold for all that.
Blink + BF + Daedalus is I think straight up better for the same gold.
Unless you buy a Refresher. =]
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I really don't understand people buying battlefury on this hero. It doesn't synergise with him at all. The tidebringer cleave requires completely different positioning, so it's not like they stack effectively.
I mean sure he's melee and the sustain makes his life a bit easier, but that applies to every carry ever.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 24 2014 08:21 Belisarius wrote:
I really don't understand people buying battlefury on this hero. It doesn't synergise with him at all. The tidebringer cleave requires completely different positioning, so it's not like they stack effectively.
I mean sure he's melee and the sustain makes his life a bit easier, but that applies to every carry ever.
It's a farming item and gives efficient damage when damage is the main offensive stat he uses until quite late game.
If you're in a farmy game, it's going to be the most efficient farming item to buy.
Obviously he's also a good gank/fighting hero, but there are a lot of reasons why you'd need to play a farmier game, and the Coco's Rum buff inherently makes him a good fit for playing out lategame with multiple farmed cores.
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i guess rum doesnt stack at all, not even for 25%? so you couldnt use the perserverance for a refresher.
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United States47024 Posts
It just refreshes the duration. And X and Ship are super bugged when you cast them while the first one is still going.
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would've been cool if buff/debuffs can have stacks...
can you imagine refresher poison nova? it'll be so strong!
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On December 23 2014 05:26 govie wrote:
@logo: Food for thought and practise, it could well be a mmr thing too. At my mediocre level people tend to overextend so much that forcestaff+urn on supports seem really valuable and sometimes overpowered. If i can keep the carry alive im a good support and i do that alot with a forcestaff and an urn! This besides the fact that sniper, tombstone, radiance, plagueward, euls etcetc counters blink which can be quite frustrating when you want to initiate. So. I made it a habit to mostly go forcestaff on a support except on those sandking-like heros. Will try blink to feel a difference ofcourse, see how that fits on a supportkunkka.
@bluemoonSC: I think -X- is the setup for torrent or boat and dont need an euls for a combo. Alot of us just need to practise the combo's more.
Starladder bigdaddynotail supportkunkka (editing the post during the game so we have some stuff noted
Game : Layons vs. Secret (22 december 2014)
Supportcombo : Kunka+Mirana (-x- setup for arrow and other stuff at lvl1)
Starting Items : Naked boot+clarity+tangos --> tp & smoke
............Skillbuild: 0010 --> 2020
20min Items: sentry+manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle
...........Skillbuild: 3041
46 min Items: manaboot+stick+tp+smoke+bottle+forcestaff (against a disruptor)
add. info : only 4 armour at 46 minutes on kunka iirc, which isnt alot against a viper/pa/lc core. Then again, whole draft had weak armour and no aoe armour items on any hero, seems to me secret got outdrafted/itemised this game.
---game over---
1) Bottle > Urn for Kunkka due to X + TP fountain trips. Remember you can use Bottle on teammates and that you also can use a free bottle charge right after TPing as it'll recharge from fountain.
2) Don't really need Eul's as support Kunkka. You already have X if you need setup/initiation and you don't need the mana regen due to X + Bottle.
3) You don't really need Blink on support Kunkka unless you specifically need the super long range initiation. His normal skills are all long range already. Blink has more utility with a core Kunkka for combo'ing with X to get in and out of fights to get your cleaves off, plus it lets you farm faster/safer.
4) Mek on support Kunkka is extra effective with the rum buff. Plus the stats and armor beefs him up a bit too. It's my go-to luxury item on support Kunkka.
All you have to do as support Kunkka is just stay far in the backlines and be ready to combo your skills, which is very easy to do with such long range on Kunkka's skills. Be at every teamfight, your ult has a very low cooldown. Don't worry about getting into the thick of things to get your cleave off, it's not worth it as a support with no damage. I just focus on keeping allies alive while your stuff is on cooldown, which is where Mek and Force Staff come in.
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How do you do the XMTS torrent boat combo? What's the timing?
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The delay on X is 4 at all levels, the delay on torrent is 1.6, and the delay on ship is 3. Torrent stuns for 1.53 and slows by 35% for 4 seconds. Boat stuns for 1.4. So the best is to use X, then Boat after 1 second, then torrent immediately as the boat hits.
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I mean when kunkka players do the combo, they usually move a step back etc. So what's the exact procedure that they do?
My inability to pull the full combo off has cost me the 2 recent games when i randomed kunkka haha.
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Oh, taking a step back, that's smart! I'm not a good Kunkka player so I hadn't thought of that.
So if I'm understanding it correctly, the movement isn't for timing (you can just count in your head), but it's because boat hits something like 600-700 units in front of Kunkka. No matter where you click the point target, it draws a line between Kunkka and the point for the boat to travel, always hitting that large 600-700 units. So if you have level 2 X (say, 1-2-2-1 at level 6, for instance), and you X-torrent-boat combo, your boat will miss because level 2 X only has 550 cast range. However, if you level 2 X, take a step back, then cast boat, cast torrent, wait 2 seconds then pull the hero back to the X, you will hit the torrent and then hit the boat on top of the torrented hero.
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A wiki says:
- cast Range: 1000
- 650 is the travelspeed of the boat.
- Kunkka turns to face the target point; the ship then spawns 1000 units behind Kunkka, travels forward, and finishes 1000 units ahead of Kunkka.
So i think the fixed impactrange you are talking about is 1000? Then your step(s) back method would still be applicable ofcourse.
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United States47024 Posts
It's pretty simple. Ship hits 1000 units in front of you with 425 radius, which means a unit 575 units in front of you will be hit by it. So you really just step back to get that 575 range between you and your target when X rank 2 range is 550.
It actually also works out your timing because Ship has a 3s delay while X lasts 4 seconds. Turning all the way around takes 0.3s and casting Ship is 0.4, so you really just walk a little so you can use up that full second. You don't need to use the pull-back at all.
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Lv 3+ X > Torrent > Ship > Return X
Lv 2 X > walk back a little bit > Ship > Torrent under target(s) ~1s before Ship hits
Lv 1 X > don't even bother, better to use another teammates setup to do Torrent > Ship from long range
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So level 2 X is walk back ship before torrent? And for 3+ X is to just cast torrent and ship immediately and time return X?
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Ok I just tested in a lobby. Think I always delayed my boat usage, hence I often miss it even though my torrent lands. That was my main problem. Also the walk back thing I forgot it only applied to rank 2 X instead of all ranks of it.
So X into Boat is almost a guaranteed hit. I suppose I can do it even for rank 3+ X? Seems like boat then torrent would be more reliable since I don't have to time return X at all, which if I mistimed would mean missing the whole combo.
Any pros and cons of torrent-boat vs boat-torrent? Do I get a longer disable time for the former? Also against blinkers/force staff, I should be able to land the combos still right?
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Boat torrent is probably better in terms of not stacking the stun and slows of the 2 spells. Also more precise against blink/fs if you use return instead of waiting 1 second, just cast return when you see your boat is about to crash.
Make use of the spell visual indicator to land any x torrent combo with return. Cast return when the bubbles start to emerge from the ground.
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For lv 3+ X you can X > Torrent > Ship > return X all immediately one after the other and they will lineup (stun-wise) pretty cleanly.
Using Ship > Torrent is a little trickier mostly because you have to time the Ship slightly after the X cast and then also time Torrent slightly before Ship hits.
There's really no point using return X > Ship > return X since X only lasts 4s and ship hits 3s after cast (thus it's better to just wait the 0.5s before casting ship after X since return X also has a 0.5s cast time). You can do Ship > X and then return X as ship is about to hit though but why give the opponent a chance to react from seeing the Ship cast.
Bottom line is combo'ing Torrent > Ship is really easy with a setup (from your own lv 3+ X or a teammates stun or whatever) and that saving X for utility should be done when possible. I suppose you can make an argument that you can take advantage of the full slow duration from Ship > Torrent but it seems to be way more of hassle for not much effect.
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Hmm my main issue was landing the combos solo. I pretty much got the hang of it, and figured out what went wrong prior (my Boat was always not used immediately after Torrent).
I actually find Ship > Torrent almost flawless to pull off since there's no need to return X at all, whereas Torrent > Ship would totally miss if I mistimed the return X, since Torrent wouldn't hit and subsequently Boat too. That said and since some mention that Ship > Torrent has a longer disable time, why would you prefer Torrent > Ship instead?
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Mostly because the whole chain comes off faster. If you go Torrent > Ship the combo starts stunning after 2s, whereas if you start with ship it is 3s (or 4s if you used X > Ship). The longer disable (which is just the additional slow duration of Torrent) feels much more inconsequential that just getting the combo off faster. Plus it's easier to hit multiple people with Torrent if it comes before the ship than after since everybody scatters when you cast ship.
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maybe in a combo with a shorter cd, rubric or sd?
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Fair point. I got the hang of both methods already. Can't lose a kunkka game now  thanks!
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As a mid, what items can you build on this hero? The best I've been able to come up with is wand bottle boots (phase or greedy travels later) always a TP, optional blink/sb, bracer/drums for additional stats and the aura (situational, dont always need it), and stack crits with a BKB and AC as situational items, as well as rapier in desperate situations.
Is there any reason to pick up something like a battlefury, skadi, satanic? Silver edge also looks mediocre to me.
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On June 27 2015 04:33 Fencar wrote:
As a mid, what items can you build on this hero? The best I've been able to come up with is wand bottle boots (phase or greedy travels later) always a TP, optional blink/sb, bracer/drums for additional stats and the aura (situational, dont always need it), and stack crits with a BKB and AC as situational items, as well as rapier in desperate situations.
Is there any reason to pick up something like a battlefury, skadi, satanic? Silver edge also looks mediocre to me.
First item blink or SB. No reason to get silver edge since you don't want to be hitting the target you want to be damaging. Crit after. Then go glass cannon. Optional bkb. You don't need to man fight or tank up because you gain more if RNG crit tidebringer works in your favour. Better to maximise the crit damage. I wouldn't rule out getting cc items like abyssal or hex though.
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OK, that makes sense.
Is there any merit to a Midas? Looking at Attacker's games he seems to pick it up sometimes and with Kunkka's relatively slow farming speed it seems reasonable to pick one up around the 8-10 minute mark to get to the point where you have 10-15k of damage items a lot faster/more reliably.
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bfury's really good, otherwise kunkkas pretty mediocre at farming
attacker goes bottle boots bfury blink crits/rapiers pretty much every game i think
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OK. What about midas? Are there situations where that's a decent pickup?
Anyway, what about skillbuild for this hero? The first couple of times I botched it completely, but now I'm going W-Q-W-E-E-R-E (1-2-0 at 3, 1-2-2-1 at 6 and 3rd point in X at 7). This way I have decent laning with the extra point in Tidebringer and still have 3x+boat at a reasonable time. Is the extra point in tidebringer worth it or is it better to have the 60 damage +1s of slow from torrent and 1-1-3 for boat combos at 6?
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i think midas sux but idk ive never tried it
attackspeeds pretty useless and kunkka has better farming items
skills depend on lane but i dont think skill build matters much
eg versus sniper max e lets u kill him easily
but a lot of the time u can just abuse fog to torrent boat
i think 1411 to 1442 is eziest to play tho
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I don't think you need the range of rank 3 x at level 6. You should definitely be 1-4-3-1 before considering to increase your torrent rank. Generally I think rank 3 x by level 8 is good. 1-2-2-1 should be the right build for mid lane. Enough to land your full combo. How you skill later really depends on whether you're going to be active or not yet.
I also think Midas is unnecessary because with damage and tide bringer, farming is easy. But the hero doesn't need items to kill anyway, so it's not that bad.
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Why is rank 4 tidebringer so much more important than additional levels in torrent? Between guaranteed on at least on target 60 damage and 1s duration of slow, torrent seems to scale pretty well in fights compared to tidebringer which gives maybe 15 more damage per rank if you can actually hit something.
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On June 27 2015 15:22 Fencar wrote:
Why is rank 4 tidebringer so much more important than additional levels in torrent? Between guaranteed on at least on target 60 damage and 1s duration of slow, torrent seems to scale pretty well in fights compared to tidebringer which gives maybe 15 more damage per rank if you can actually hit something.
Tidebringer has weird scaling. At level 4 the cleave radius increases from 500 to 600, making it better than any previous level of tidebringer by a bigger margin. It also lowers the cooldown to 4 seconds, meaning every hit you do will basically be a tidebringer hit and therefore increases your damage output even further than the damage scaling would lead you to believe.
Compared to torrent with a static cooldown and high mana cost, you should prioritize tidebringer over anything else always.
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On June 27 2015 15:22 Fencar wrote:
Why is rank 4 tidebringer so much more important than additional levels in torrent? Between guaranteed on at least on target 60 damage and 1s duration of slow, torrent seems to scale pretty well in fights compared to tidebringer which gives maybe 15 more damage per rank if you can actually hit something.
That's because Tidebringer is more useful than Torrent. 4s Tidebringer helps a lot with farming, while still contributing damage to your combo. You also want to conserve mana because each gank should involve using your full combo due to the short Boat CD. You could treat Torrent as just a stun.
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On June 27 2015 16:07 aeroblaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 15:22 Fencar wrote:
Why is rank 4 tidebringer so much more important than additional levels in torrent? Between guaranteed on at least on target 60 damage and 1s duration of slow, torrent seems to scale pretty well in fights compared to tidebringer which gives maybe 15 more damage per rank if you can actually hit something. Tidebringer has weird scaling. At level 4 the cleave radius increases from 500 to 600, making it better than any previous level of tidebringer by a bigger margin. It also lowers the cooldown to 4 seconds, meaning every hit you do will basically be a tidebringer hit and therefore increases your damage output even further than the damage scaling would lead you to believe. Compared to torrent with a static cooldown and high mana cost, you should prioritize tidebringer over anything else always.
Because you don't have the mana to spam torrent combos. It's more important to be able to deal out consistent damage also.
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So guys what to do with this hero ?
I think he is in a rly bad spot right now due to the nature of him beeing a meele hero but with this crazy long initiation/teamfight and inbuild cleave he feels almost impossible to balance.
Once ur get some lvls ur ganks are almost impossible to doge, if u know what u are doing, and u can go on a rampage all over the map where noone feels safe anywhere anymore.
But u get shit on in midlane by almost every other hero, u have none existend comeback potenial, no sustain and no escape mechanism it is sooo hard to itemize him properly - which is by far my biggest problem with him -
Bottle/urn --> SB or Blink isnt enough sustain if not everything goes ur way early and If u go BF u just cripple ur fighting potential it almost always isnt worth it.
Played as safelane carry he has too little sustained dmg and tank potential to be worth it + it doesn´t rly fit his skillset and soloofflane is no option at all.
So maybe duo off ? Almost never worked in my experience...
This hero just feels rly weird to me since a few patches and i have no clue why or how to fix it...
Edit : i forgot to mention Support but i feel he needs too much lvl´s, offers no laning presence beside cleave which u wont skill and even his long range initiation is outshined by heros like Tusk etc who can do what he can with less farm and less lvls...
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As a support, he is more of a ganker/roamer. If you can't get kills with him, he becomes a burden. Alternatively you can just do pulls etc to get some levels first.
I think the biggest problem that pub players do with this hero is to not get high ranks of X early, especially when they are having a shit time. If you're forced to offlane with the hero, don't max cleave first or put any points in it. Actually regardless of where you go, rank 3 X should be gotten by level 8. You can do so much stuff with the spell.
And if you're doing well as a support levels wise, you can easily solo kill heroes like how support lina does.
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Kunkka used to have a weird cleaving hero niche, however with Ember Spirit in the game, Kunkka is basically obsolete. Xin does everything like 10000x better.
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That comparison isn't one I'd have thought of making. The cleave is kind of an extra along with the early-mid initiation and team fight potential, no? Elite Wolves had a cool game a while back with the pastor on mid admiral. Had a qop offlane that game, and it feels like a core kunkka needs two additional farmers to be worth it in general.
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On November 22 2015 23:45 SQWKZ wrote:
That comparison isn't one I'd have thought of making. The cleave is kind of an extra along with the early-mid initiation and team fight potential, no? Elite Wolves had a cool game a while back with the pastor on mid admiral. Had a qop offlane that game, and it feels like a core kunkka needs two additional farmers to be worth it in general.
Kunkka is all about team fighting, and Xin is a better ganker, better fighter, and better late game overall.
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United States47024 Posts
Pretty much the only "unique" thing Kunkka brings to the table is the Coco's Rum buff from his ulti (which is still an unmatched defensive buff against burst damage). But the effectiveness Coco's Rum has no dependence on items or even levels (the buff is equally powerful at all ranks of Ghost Ship), which is why there's more draw to him being a support than a core in the last few years.
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I could definitely see Kunkka become a very viable support. Hard to say if he needs buffs though. But i've seen a few people do very well as support Kunkka.
His initiation range is almost unmatched early on when theres no Blink daggers. Its somewhat comparable to facing a disruptor where you have to be ready to be pulled back from very far away into a waiting team. But he does need a team with him since he just provides the control, not the damage. Which makes it much harder to use in pubs, people have to be expecting you to setup kills for them and play accordingly. But it can be really annoying to face a Kunkka knowing you can get X'd from fog so easily.
Would be super fun to see what pro could do with him. For all we know he could be super viable if they just try it out.
He does have some pretty big laning issues though, where he does very little in lane and can have a really hard time dealing with those popular strong aggro duals.
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His biggest issue is indeed his lane presence as a support. You can't zone can't trade hits because you have no tidebringer. You need at least rank 2 (I'd say 3 if I'm harsh) XMTS to initiate ganks. This makes his early dual roam success extremely important, or at least have some ways where he can get levels (offlane? iG.luo did it before).
But when he has his levels, he is an item independent ganker. Crazy strong in early mid game, 1000 range initiation with reliable 580-700 burst nuke from level 7 onwards. Throw in 1-2 right clicks and urn damage.
Why do pub non core kunkka even bother with tidebringer.
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i think he is requiring levels to be a potent support. you can x, yes, like a disruptor, that's still a few levels on his notch at the very least to get to that point.
as silly as that sounds, that's just too greedy. on top of that, so many ways to create a punishing lane against kunkka support.
the one good thing if we were to draw parallels is that it's about as potent as light strike array with a slightly longer CD and some extra damage thrown on top. it has a long cast range, past that of a blink dagger. other than that, it's very unreliable to hit without high levels of X or someone else setting it up.
although his level 6 ulti at a good time is amazing and has low CD, he has around 300MP at level 6 which is barely enough for the fullcombo. anyone who plays kunkka knows he has serious mana issues.
and let's be honest, he is no undying when it comes to laning. kunkka is like a long range, low mana lina that eventually makes his laning partner suffer.
i only play core kunkka to prove a point or for shennanigans, not because he's actually or secretly good right now.
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On November 23 2015 15:52 TheYango wrote:
Pretty much the only "unique" thing Kunkka brings to the table is the Coco's Rum buff from his ulti (which is still an unmatched defensive buff against burst damage). But the effectiveness Coco's Rum has no dependence on items or even levels (the buff is equally powerful at all ranks of Ghost Ship), which is why there's more draw to him being a support than a core in the last few years.
His ability to support sucks because his mana costs are through the roof and his laning presence blows.
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X is such a uniquely powerful ability. Like if you run him mid with a roaming potm, X guarantees an easy guaranteed 5 sec arrow if the enemy mid is within 400/600/800/1000 range of Kunkka, even vs a hero like QoP. Problem being of course that if you do that, you have a mid Kunkka and a roaming potm...
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SoCal8910 Posts
kunkka isn't being played as a support these days?
he needs to have crazy farm to fight when he needs to in the current meta, so unless you snowball, I don't really see him being relevant as a core. that said, I think this has been in the discussion for 1 or 2 patches now (not including 6.84).
@mana concerns - sure his mana costs are high given his mana pool, but maybe arcanes + force would be appropriate? an urn? tranqs + soul ring? or you could always get a bottle because you can x yourself, tp home, bottle up, then come back similar to ember. but imo TPs are best saved for counter ganks.
@level concerns - I wanna echo what Duck- said. you don't take tide bringer, so your other skills make you similar to any other support that requires levels to be successful.
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They should give Tidebringer some additional "on use" Ability... Like they did with other passives.
What it could be? I don't know but i think this would be a better way to improve him instead of just dangling with Manacost/X-Range/Torrent-Range and all the stuff the Frog tried.
Just Brainstorming... Why not make Tidebringer castable on other heroes and units (but it would double your CD or something like that)...
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A simple change could be to make Tidebringer a toggle ability so that you're never forced to waste it or push lanes when you don't want to. But maybe that changes the dynamic of the hero too much - Tidebringer is a cool thing to have to work around.
Basically, I think the hero is in a good spot right now conceptually. Seems like he could do with just some stat increases to push him towards more viable territory. Could maybe give him another 5 armour or something silly to make him able to harass people out of lane like an Ogre. Or perhaps a lower mana cost on Torrent (say, 100) and X (say, 25) would be a better buff.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2015 16:57 DucK- wrote:
Why do pub non core kunkka even bother with tidebringer.
You answered your own question. Nobody in pubs sees themselves as a non-core even when they're on a non-farming role.
On November 24 2015 06:21 BluemoonSC wrote:
kunkka isn't being played as a support these days?
Kunkka's basically only been played as support this year in competitive. You have to go back to before TI4 (well before the X change) before you could say that core Kunkka is more prevalent than support.
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I want my core Kunkka back, man. I would play Kunkka in pubs, and do bottle phase cryt sb cryt and literally one hit wipe the enemy team. The oh so long ago change to Tidebringer crippled his core role, and his core side still shows too strongly with his high mana costs and poor supporting ability in lane. A support that needs support... Plz buff into one role or another icefrog.
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On November 24 2015 10:31 FuzzyJAM wrote:
A simple change could be to make Tidebringer a toggle ability so that you're never forced to waste it or push lanes when you don't want to. But maybe that changes the dynamic of the hero too much - Tidebringer is a cool thing to have to work around.
Basically, I think the hero is in a good spot right now conceptually. Seems like he could do with just some stat increases to push him towards more viable territory. Could maybe give him another 5 armour or something silly to make him able to harass people out of lane like an Ogre. Or perhaps a lower mana cost on Torrent (say, 100) and X (say, 25) would be a better buff.
Would giving tidebringer a charge system(like shrapnel) make him broken?
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i think we'll just have to live with how it certainly feels like the hero being outgunned and out of place considering the many different playstyles used right now. the sheer amount of kunkka games must have taken a dive, but all it takes is one good pro-game to get people to jump ship.
I put him on the same boat as sven in that he absolutely needs items to continue scaling. as a fighting carry, both of those heroes still need to predominantly farm if the snowball doesn't roll early. there are -many- heroes on the other side that make it so difficult and give them hardship. I don't even want to think about the 1 or 2 position matchups, it can get so lopsided.
for the most part, the only item build I used in the very highskill bracket for core kunkka is the bfury blink rush. its been a really long time and I don't really remember the timing, but I believe it's around 20, 21 minutes. honestly it's still so volatile and useless in fights. it's just good for farming and grabbing the subsequent Daedalus. better teams can just position around and push down objectives more reliably. the rosh fight is great, imo bkb is needed if it goes late, and the fullcombo is nasty for the first few teamfights. annnd of course, that fucking Daedalus crit at the 30m mark can change the tide.
if tidebringer could proc on-hits like abyssal or skadi slow to all targets in range of it, that'd be fucking sick, my god.
and would offset the amount of farm it requires. the problem is the whole x-blink crap. I'm sure someone's messed around with octarine crap on kunkka. but afraid my love for the admiral... that ship as sailed.
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i think even core kunkka should max x first, or at least 3 points by 7 or 8
also early bots is so strong on this hero
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Problem with Corekunkka (which i guess is still mainly mid or some random 1on1 off/easy-lane) is that you need tidebringer for easy lasthits and some lanepresence/pressure on your opponent.
So you need to Skill it (sadly it also sucks on lvl 1 and 2), also you need 1 Point in torrent becauseelse you have no lockdown.
I still think the X Change was a nerf, before lvl 1 was "okish" and lvl 2 was awesome, now its just bad at lvl 1 and still bad at lvl 2.
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u can just kill the opposing mid at 6 or 7
tidebringer doesnt even do that much unless u get 4 points in it
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And till lvl 6/7 you have 0 lane presence and just get bullied around.
Then on lvl 7+ you need to gank and be succsesfull or your fucked because you have no farming/pushing ability.
And biggest question: If you neglect Tidebringer on a core Kunkka, why not just pick Qop, Brewmaster or any other ganking/roaming hero...
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On November 25 2015 23:11 Velr wrote:
And till lvl 6/7 you have 0 lane presence and just get bullied around.
Then on lvl 7+ you need to gank and be succsesfull or your fucked because you have no farming/pushing ability.
And biggest question: If you neglect Tidebringer on a core Kunkka, why not just pick Qop, Brewmaster or any other ganking/roaming hero...
You have a 520+ Burst combo at level 6 every 60s.
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And need a basetrip (or at least a rune) inbetween each use and can do nothing else and totally fall off later.
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Well XMTS is the main reason why you would pick Kunkka now anyway. Many heroes have better burst than him, better laning presence etc, but none of them have a setup as good as XMTS. His initiation at that stage is unparalleled, especially since you don't need any items to do so. Plus, he can also just XMTS -> TP to refill his bottle if necessary.
Anyway I just reread your post, and I disagree at your comment on non farm/pushing ability. The common build for core Kunkka would be 1/4/4/1. It's not like you're delaying Tidebringer till 12/13/14.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 25 2015 23:57 Velr wrote:
And need a basetrip (or at least a rune) inbetween each use and can do nothing else and totally fall off later.
You actually don't fall off since CoCo's rum remains one of the most powerful defensive buffs against burst damage the whole game.
Most similarly powerful anti-burst defensive skills are only single-target.
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Ship is awesome, no contra there.
But having him run in Mid "just" for Ship and some ganking potential just isn't worth it?
I love the hero but he just feels so meh atm  .
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kunkka has a 1000 initiation range with 3s of stun and a pretty good amount of damage
hes probably one of the best gankers in the game
i think 4142 is the better build most of the time
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What if boat stuns magic immune heroes. Heh.
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On November 25 2015 23:42 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 23:11 Velr wrote:
And till lvl 6/7 you have 0 lane presence and just get bullied around.
Then on lvl 7+ you need to gank and be succsesfull or your fucked because you have no farming/pushing ability.
And biggest question: If you neglect Tidebringer on a core Kunkka, why not just pick Qop, Brewmaster or any other ganking/roaming hero... You have a 520+ Burst combo at level 6 every 60s.
You're dead weight prior to level 6, and if you're ran as a support it takes forever for you to get there. The hero is simply not that good outside of some niche line-ups and needs a total revamp of his skillset, or some major buffs to get him back into consistent competitive play.
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Hes basically a shit version of disruptor in the early game, and a shit version of ember spirit in the late game.
Until the hero gets considerably buffed hes going to remain terrible.
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I feel his biggest weakness is his inability to boat close range x target
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After level 6 he is a better version of disruptor though in terms of gank/burst. I mean the only similarity between them is glimpse and x, and they serve different purposes.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On November 30 2015 12:51 gaijindash wrote:
Hes basically a shit version of disruptor in the early game, and a shit version of ember spirit in the late game.
Until the hero gets considerably buffed hes going to remain terrible.
x'ing yourself + blink + tidebringer is almost safer than ember spirit lategame. almost.
that said, kunkka is definitely in need of a buff or he's destined to be a support-y hero for a while.
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On November 30 2015 21:16 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2015 12:51 gaijindash wrote:
Hes basically a shit version of disruptor in the early game, and a shit version of ember spirit in the late game.
Until the hero gets considerably buffed hes going to remain terrible. x'ing yourself + blink + tidebringer is almost safer than ember spirit lategame. almost. that said, kunkka is definitely in need of a buff or he's destined to be a support-y hero for a while.
Yeah but ember just presses one button so its a lot less effort and he farms easier early one especially after BF.
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Ember also doesn't fall over like (carry-) Kunkka when there are 1-2 Blademails ^^.
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I wish this hero comes back into the meta, but so many heroes counter this guy and so many heroes perform his role better than him. Maybe they should restructure the entire hero like phantom lancer and make him actually do stuff really well unless the opponent outplays or picks a hardcounter. I was thinking maybe make his boat a third skill and make the cleave the ulti instead such that he has the best cleave in the entire hero pool, make it work something like Riki's ult, you can cleave like 600 range in front of you with extra dmg for 3 instances of something. For his boat, keep the aura but remove the skill entirely so that for every level, when an ally hero is around, they receive the dmg reduction buff, so it works something like bristleback. I think that will make him a viable hero early and late game with good initiation, tankiness and good dmg. Any thoughts?
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On December 01 2015 02:20 hashmon wrote:
I wish this hero comes back into the meta, but so many heroes counter this guy and so many heroes perform his role better than him. Maybe they should restructure the entire hero like phantom lancer and make him actually do stuff really well unless the opponent outplays or picks a hardcounter. I was thinking maybe make his boat a third skill and make the cleave the ulti instead such that he has the best cleave in the entire hero pool, make it work something like Riki's ult, you can cleave like 600 range in front of you with extra dmg for 3 instances of something. For his boat, keep the aura but remove the skill entirely so that for every level, when an ally hero is around, they receive the dmg reduction buff, so it works something like bristleback. I think that will make him a viable hero early and late game with good initiation, tankiness and good dmg. Any thoughts?
Sounds weaker.
This hero's main problem is that as a caster, he falls off when there's bkbs. His spells are not instant disables, doesn't pierce bkb, doesn't have crazy 'laguna-ish' damage, the aoe burst needs time to setup unlike sonic wave etc. I'll ignore his hitter style since that's just a shit version of ember.
Look at common supports. Lion with instant disable. Lina with crazy burst. Bane with bkb piercing disable. Rubick with instant disable + ulti. Es with instant disable + space control. So even with bkb, these heroes can still be relevant.
Oh and of course caster kunkka has shit 1-5.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean that'd still be fine if we were playing teamcomps that leverage Ghost Ship's damage delay because for the kind of teams it's good for, it's actually better than Shallow Grave since it gets multiple people.
But with the way the game plays now, Shallow Grave and Cold Embrace are just better in this regard and have been for a long time. Related to a longer-term problem where Str-based fighting carries like CK, carry Slardar, Sven, DK, etc. have not been appealing for a long time.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 01 2015 00:44 Velr wrote:
Ember also doesn't fall over like (carry-) Kunkka when there are 1-2 Blademails ^^.
well, thats one reason you'd be picking up a blink or lothar as a core kunkka.
blink/lothar + tidebringer is a lot safer than just casually walking up to the wave and chopping it. x'ing yourself a good distance away, walking up, then blinking w/ max blink range and immediately x'ing back won't give most players time to react with their blademails
is the cast animation on 'return' long enough to get caught by a really quick disable tho?
but like gaijindash said, ember does this with one button, which is easier.
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if ur opponents are ready they can probably blademail, blademail doesnt even do that much to kunkka tho
and yes the cast animation on return is pretty long
u can ofc bypass this by waiting until x almost expires but thats not always ideal
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Kunkka has good setup but lack mobility for himself, whereas ember have instant lockdown/burst and on top of that unparalleled mobility for both offensive and defensive purposes, ember can be aggressive without overcommitting whereas kunkka being caught out of positionmeans certain death. Think of this scenario: you see a qop farming by herself in lane, kunkka went to xmark her and now has to wait for it to happen while her team could've already be on the way for assistance, and if it turns out she has backup kunkka will most certainly die; whereas an ember immediately initiate on her, and should danger arise he just dodge some dmg/disable with sleight of fist and wait for his remnant CD. Who is easier for people to gank, ember or kunkka? I think the answer to that is quite clear.
Kunkka's lack of popularity is not because he doesn't suit the meta, he is absolutely underpowered right now and needs rework. But meanwhile feel free to play him because you are stubborn and feed your mmr to me, I won't say no to that.
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think of this scenario: your opponents are 4man pushing your last t1 at minute 15
who would do better in a fight there, kunkka or ember?
not saying kunkka's stronger overall but cherry picking situations doesnt make for a gr8 case
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On December 01 2015 02:48 TheYango wrote:
I mean that'd still be fine if we were playing teamcomps that leverage Ghost Ship's damage delay because for the kind of teams it's good for, it's actually better than Shallow Grave since it gets multiple people.
But with the way the game plays now, Shallow Grave and Cold Embrace are just better in this regard and have been for a long time. Related to a longer-term problem where Str-based fighting carries like CK, carry Slardar, Sven, DK, etc. have not been appealing for a long time.
I definitely agree with you on your last point. Simply, most str-based heroes feel quite weak. In fact, most str carries don't even have a significant stat advantage over most agi carries, and most of them don't have good skills/magical damage/mana pool or significant burst to compete with most int heroes in other roles.
While I think that this meta is overall quite decent, most str heroes are weak. Only initiators/playmakers (offlanes) are really surviving.
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Make tidebringer a mixed passive/use skill. It can be passive like it is now and when off cool down it can be cast instantly in front of the hero, no need for a target.
It makes his lane presence better, because he now has an 'orb' and makes running from him harder, because he can hit you from far away every few seconds.
Or if you want to straight up buff him, make tidebringer acumulate charges like shrapnel and ember ulti, and on top of that make it usable like I said above.
I think we need to make stronger the points that define the hero, not cover his weakness outright.
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Now I'm picturing Kunkka swinging his sword three times really fast and getting crits on nothing while killing the enemy team and himself all at the same time because that asshole Bristleback bought a blademail.
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The easiest buff into viability is a range buff on X at early levels.
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I think Kunkka doesn't really need a buff at this moment. He is a really strong hero. The problem is that he doesn't have an exact and reliable role (in competitive games) where he would shine. He is not a tier 1 carry, mid, offlane or support, but he is very strong on all positions. Unfortunately pro teams tend to pick only tier 1 heroes for respective positions. Kunkka is kind of a risky pick, but when it goes well it pays back. Also his late game damage potential is insane with double rapier, but again too risky for competitive.
Yesterday I watched Black's stream and he had !Attacker on his team. Best Kunkka player i have seen. He went 23-2 in 7K mmr game, pretty much wrecking left and right. After the game Black commended him with a line "Thanks for carry".
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SoCal8910 Posts
Attacker! is a known kunkka prodigy. I'd bet they were playing AP instead of CM though..to make kunkka work you either have to be a god (like Attacker! is with the hero) or you have to have someone that can help you reliably combo in a team fight early so you can get farm/levels.
If you can snowball and find levels and farm, kunkka is outstanding. If you can't and you're constantly finding yourself on the defensive with no farm, then carry kunkka was a waste of a farming position.
I'm not sure if he's bad or good tbh bc I haven't played him in a long while..but whenever I see someone else playing him this is just the pattern that I notice.
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On February 03 2016 04:12 BluemoonSC wrote:
Attacker! is a known kunkka prodigy. I'd bet they were playing AP instead of CM though..to make kunkka work you either have to be a god (like Attacker! is with the hero) or you have to have someone that can help you reliably combo in a team fight early so you can get farm/levels.
If you can snowball and find levels and farm, kunkka is outstanding. If you can't and you're constantly finding yourself on the defensive with no farm, then carry kunkka was a waste of a farming position.
I'm not sure if he's bad or good tbh bc I haven't played him in a long while..but whenever I see someone else playing him this is just the pattern that I notice.
Yes they were playing AP. Anyways I agree with you. Basically the team hero compositon would have to revolve around Kunkka (especially make use of his rum buff, which is very powerfull). But such a team would probably be easily countered or figured out really quickly and then Kunkka would fall off again. I still don't think he is underpowered as some people here saying. You could call him a worse version of ember or disruptor, but that is just not true. Ember has no rum buff or x mark on enemies and disruptor does have no cleave/phys damage potential. Kunkka is just special and that's why I like him. I would be happy to see him in competitive games at least some times, but wouldn't like changing of his skills mechanics. Maybe improve some timings or damage, but not a total overhaul like in Riki's or PL's case.
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On February 04 2016 01:09 Ricjames wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2016 04:12 BluemoonSC wrote:
Attacker! is a known kunkka prodigy. I'd bet they were playing AP instead of CM though..to make kunkka work you either have to be a god (like Attacker! is with the hero) or you have to have someone that can help you reliably combo in a team fight early so you can get farm/levels.
If you can snowball and find levels and farm, kunkka is outstanding. If you can't and you're constantly finding yourself on the defensive with no farm, then carry kunkka was a waste of a farming position.
I'm not sure if he's bad or good tbh bc I haven't played him in a long while..but whenever I see someone else playing him this is just the pattern that I notice. Yes they were playing AP. Anyways I agree with you. Basically the team hero compositon would have to revolve around Kunkka (especially make use of his rum buff, which is very powerfull). But such a team would probably be easily countered or figured out really quickly and then Kunkka would fall off again. I still don't think he is underpowered as some people here saying. You could call him a worse version of ember or disruptor, but that is just not true. Ember has no rum buff or x mark on enemies and disruptor does have no cleave/phys damage potential. Kunkka is just special and that's why I like him. I would be happy to see him in competitive games at least some times, but wouldn't like changing of his skills mechanics. Maybe improve some timings or damage, but not a total overhaul like in Riki's or PL's case.
Also remember that professional picks are very trend based--jugg got buffed a billion patches in a row and went unpicked until people figured out the mom + stats build, and "all of a sudden" he was an OP hero. I would argue that when people realize armlet kunkka is amazing he might see some situational picks.
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On February 04 2016 01:57 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 01:09 Ricjames wrote:On February 03 2016 04:12 BluemoonSC wrote:
Attacker! is a known kunkka prodigy. I'd bet they were playing AP instead of CM though..to make kunkka work you either have to be a god (like Attacker! is with the hero) or you have to have someone that can help you reliably combo in a team fight early so you can get farm/levels.
If you can snowball and find levels and farm, kunkka is outstanding. If you can't and you're constantly finding yourself on the defensive with no farm, then carry kunkka was a waste of a farming position.
I'm not sure if he's bad or good tbh bc I haven't played him in a long while..but whenever I see someone else playing him this is just the pattern that I notice. Yes they were playing AP. Anyways I agree with you. Basically the team hero compositon would have to revolve around Kunkka (especially make use of his rum buff, which is very powerfull). But such a team would probably be easily countered or figured out really quickly and then Kunkka would fall off again. I still don't think he is underpowered as some people here saying. You could call him a worse version of ember or disruptor, but that is just not true. Ember has no rum buff or x mark on enemies and disruptor does have no cleave/phys damage potential. Kunkka is just special and that's why I like him. I would be happy to see him in competitive games at least some times, but wouldn't like changing of his skills mechanics. Maybe improve some timings or damage, but not a total overhaul like in Riki's or PL's case. Also remember that professional picks are very trend based--jugg got buffed a billion patches in a row and went unpicked until people figured out the mom + stats build, and "all of a sudden" he was an OP hero. I would argue that when people realize armlet kunkka is amazing he might see some situational picks.
Oh man that would be awesome. I think he is definitely a viable pick in the right hands and good team composition. Let's hope we can see him a little more in the future.
Is it just me or the armlet build is much better than shadowblade on Kunkka. I would even say that shadow blade is not good at all. Usually when I go shadowblade, it just feels much weaker than when I go Drums + Armlet. Also the mana cost on shadow blade is a little annoying for Kunkka's mana pool.
What are your toughts on Offlane Kunkka? There are 2 or 3 variants:
1) Solo Offlane - Is this viable? I think he can get some cs thanks to torrent or tidebringer. He doesn't have an escape mechanism, but can work with a decent hp pool. The big problem is that Kunkka needs items to become strong for mid game.
2) Dual Offlane - This could be a pretty strong strategy that would let Kunkka farm and maybe get some kills or shut down enemy farm. What would be a suitable support for this strategy?
3) Offensive trilane - This might catch the enemy offguard and also seems pretty strong trilane option. Any good combinations recommended?
I still like to play Kunkka in mid if possible. Probably the most fitting position right now.
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Does anyone have any experieince or tips on Support Kunkka?
I found an interesting article:
Here
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On February 04 2016 19:20 Ricjames wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 01:57 xxpack09 wrote:On February 04 2016 01:09 Ricjames wrote:On February 03 2016 04:12 BluemoonSC wrote:
Attacker! is a known kunkka prodigy. I'd bet they were playing AP instead of CM though..to make kunkka work you either have to be a god (like Attacker! is with the hero) or you have to have someone that can help you reliably combo in a team fight early so you can get farm/levels.
If you can snowball and find levels and farm, kunkka is outstanding. If you can't and you're constantly finding yourself on the defensive with no farm, then carry kunkka was a waste of a farming position.
I'm not sure if he's bad or good tbh bc I haven't played him in a long while..but whenever I see someone else playing him this is just the pattern that I notice. Yes they were playing AP. Anyways I agree with you. Basically the team hero compositon would have to revolve around Kunkka (especially make use of his rum buff, which is very powerfull). But such a team would probably be easily countered or figured out really quickly and then Kunkka would fall off again. I still don't think he is underpowered as some people here saying. You could call him a worse version of ember or disruptor, but that is just not true. Ember has no rum buff or x mark on enemies and disruptor does have no cleave/phys damage potential. Kunkka is just special and that's why I like him. I would be happy to see him in competitive games at least some times, but wouldn't like changing of his skills mechanics. Maybe improve some timings or damage, but not a total overhaul like in Riki's or PL's case. Also remember that professional picks are very trend based--jugg got buffed a billion patches in a row and went unpicked until people figured out the mom + stats build, and "all of a sudden" he was an OP hero. I would argue that when people realize armlet kunkka is amazing he might see some situational picks. Oh man that would be awesome. I think he is definitely a viable pick in the right hands and good team composition. Let's hope we can see him a little more in the future. Is it just me or the armlet build is much better than shadowblade on Kunkka. I would even say that shadow blade is not good at all. Usually when I go shadowblade, it just feels much weaker than when I go Drums + Armlet. Also the mana cost on shadow blade is a little annoying for Kunkka's mana pool. What are your toughts on Offlane Kunkka? There are 2 or 3 variants: 1) Solo Offlane - Is this viable? I think he can get some cs thanks to torrent or tidebringer. He doesn't have an escape mechanism, but can work with a decent hp pool. The big problem is that Kunkka needs items to become strong for mid game. 2) Dual Offlane - This could be a pretty strong strategy that would let Kunkka farm and maybe get some kills or shut down enemy farm. What would be a suitable support for this strategy? 3) Offensive trilane - This might catch the enemy offguard and also seems pretty strong trilane option. Any good combinations recommended? I still like to play Kunkka in mid if possible. Probably the most fitting position right now.
Dunno, sb just gives you a lot. It adds a shitton of damage on tidebringer, gives you the ability to solo kill people and surprise combo people in teamfights. It also gives you the ability to reposition yourself in teamfights, which is invaluable for Kunka.
Armlet on the other hand mainly makes you a better fighter. But Kunka is a terrible fighter to begin with, I don't really see him go manfight people unless you are snowballing like crazy.
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
2) In pubs everything goes. You can go the 2:4:0 build if you have a setup stun like impale or earthspike. There's also the possibility to x into arrow f.e. Kunka is pretty decent in lane if the enemy can't kill him, so he does well against defensive lanes.
3) Not too big of a fan of Kunka aggro tri. He really needs levels and around lvl 2-3 he lacks damage. Still things like bane mirana kunka f.e. can work.
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On July 03 2016 08:41 VandenPlause wrote:Does anyone have any experieince or tips on Support Kunkka? I found an interesting article: Here
I've actually been playing a bit of support kunkka lately. I've been going with maxing X first then torrent. It's guaranteed boat every boat CD. It's really great at setting up kills for any lane. I've done arcane boots into a mobility item but I wonder if I should go arcane -> aether -> mobility. After the mobility item you can get another mobility item if needed or even go aghs, which seems to be decent. There's also urn to consider getting. It's really fun because you just run around and x boat torrent whoever is the best victim for the situation.
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On February 03 2016 04:12 Blackfeather wrote:
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
he literally starts with 680 base hp LMAO
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X marks the spot is a great spell lategame, except when used on yourself: if you x yourself, blink forward, hit something and then try to x back you can get silenced/stunned and bursted down since the cast animation is SO long (0.4 sec); waiting for like 7 seconds, blinking forward and waiting for it to end is kind of risky too since you can still get euled/astral prisoned and killed quite easily.
When used on allies it's very strong though, it basically makes every hero a mini-ember escape-wise.
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I disagree in how lanm runs support kunkka. He always go for armlet etc, maxing tide first. Very inflexible. Sometimes in games that don't go well, early maxed X and torrent can do so much work with nothing but levels.
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On July 03 2016 18:53 juracule wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2016 04:12 Blackfeather wrote:
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
he literally starts with 680 base hp LMAO
Yeah you are right, his base stats are better than I remembered, it's his strength gain that was terrible.
Still the point stands that he should have a hard time to stay in exp range. No escape and no survivability tool.
On July 04 2016 01:18 DucK- wrote:
I disagree in how lanm runs support kunkka. He always go for armlet etc, maxing tide first. Very inflexible. Sometimes in games that don't go well, early maxed X and torrent can do so much work with nothing but levels.
The chinese scene seems somewhat inflexible with builds, dunno.
Also x is very similar to glimpse, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game if you are ahead. I don't really see any reason to max tidebringer first unless you actually farm/lane a lot or are super low in the damage department.
I guess Lamn will have his reasons. I can only wonder what they are though.
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On July 04 2016 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 18:53 juracule wrote:On February 03 2016 04:12 Blackfeather wrote:
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
he literally starts with 680 base hp LMAO Yeah you are right, his base stats are better than I remembered, it's his strength gain that was terrible. Still the point stands that he should have a hard time to stay in exp range. No escape and no survivability tool. Show nested quote +On July 04 2016 01:18 DucK- wrote:
I disagree in how lanm runs support kunkka. He always go for armlet etc, maxing tide first. Very inflexible. Sometimes in games that don't go well, early maxed X and torrent can do so much work with nothing but levels. The chinese scene seems somewhat inflexible with builds, dunno. Also x is very similar to glimpse, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game if you are ahead. I don't really see any reason to max tidebringer first unless you actually farm/lane a lot or are super low in the damage department. I guess Lamn will have his reasons. I can only wonder what they are though.
Most importantly, he's not a very good jungler, so there's no reason to run him offlane unless you're doing some weird aggressive lane (which is rare in this meta)
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On July 04 2016 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 18:53 juracule wrote:On February 03 2016 04:12 Blackfeather wrote:
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
he literally starts with 680 base hp LMAO Yeah you are right, his base stats are better than I remembered, it's his strength gain that was terrible. Still the point stands that he should have a hard time to stay in exp range. No escape and no survivability tool. Show nested quote +On July 04 2016 01:18 DucK- wrote:
I disagree in how lanm runs support kunkka. He always go for armlet etc, maxing tide first. Very inflexible. Sometimes in games that don't go well, early maxed X and torrent can do so much work with nothing but levels. The chinese scene seems somewhat inflexible with builds, dunno. Also x is very similar to glimpse, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game if you are ahead. I don't really see any reason to max tidebringer first unless you actually farm/lane a lot or are super low in the damage department. I guess Lamn will have his reasons. I can only wonder what they are though.
Er Kunkka has 3.0 Str gain. That's pretty high...
He tends to be squishy because his agi gain sucks and he rarely itemizes armor.
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On July 04 2016 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 18:53 juracule wrote:On February 03 2016 04:12 Blackfeather wrote:
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
he literally starts with 680 base hp LMAO Yeah you are right, his base stats are better than I remembered, it's his strength gain that was terrible. Still the point stands that he should have a hard time to stay in exp range. No escape and no survivability tool. Show nested quote +On July 04 2016 01:18 DucK- wrote:
I disagree in how lanm runs support kunkka. He always go for armlet etc, maxing tide first. Very inflexible. Sometimes in games that don't go well, early maxed X and torrent can do so much work with nothing but levels. The chinese scene seems somewhat inflexible with builds, dunno. Also x is very similar to glimpse, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game if you are ahead. I don't really see any reason to max tidebringer first unless you actually farm/lane a lot or are super low in the damage department. I guess Lamn will have his reasons. I can only wonder what they are though.
Yea. X is his best spell. If you wanna be a secondary core, max tide bringer second.
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On July 04 2016 13:49 GtC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2016 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:On July 03 2016 18:53 juracule wrote:On February 03 2016 04:12 Blackfeather wrote:
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
he literally starts with 680 base hp LMAO Yeah you are right, his base stats are better than I remembered, it's his strength gain that was terrible. Still the point stands that he should have a hard time to stay in exp range. No escape and no survivability tool. On July 04 2016 01:18 DucK- wrote:
I disagree in how lanm runs support kunkka. He always go for armlet etc, maxing tide first. Very inflexible. Sometimes in games that don't go well, early maxed X and torrent can do so much work with nothing but levels. The chinese scene seems somewhat inflexible with builds, dunno. Also x is very similar to glimpse, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game if you are ahead. I don't really see any reason to max tidebringer first unless you actually farm/lane a lot or are super low in the damage department. I guess Lamn will have his reasons. I can only wonder what they are though. Er Kunkka has 3.0 Str gain. That's pretty high... He tends to be squishy because his agi gain sucks and he rarely itemizes armor.
<.< Looked at his agi gain. Sorry, I'll just shut up about him being squishy cause I apparently have no clue. Probably mixed him up with another hero, could have sworn that he was surprisingly squishy.
Maybe he isn't that terrible after all in a 1v2 lane. I still don't see him in a 1v3 lane when everyone is abandoning offlane and goes iron talon.
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On July 05 2016 06:46 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2016 13:49 GtC wrote:On July 04 2016 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:On July 03 2016 18:53 juracule wrote:On February 03 2016 04:12 Blackfeather wrote:
1) Kunka has the lowest hp at lvl 1 of any strength hero iirc. He also can't fight supports at lvl 1. Honestly I don't see it.
he literally starts with 680 base hp LMAO Yeah you are right, his base stats are better than I remembered, it's his strength gain that was terrible. Still the point stands that he should have a hard time to stay in exp range. No escape and no survivability tool. On July 04 2016 01:18 DucK- wrote:
I disagree in how lanm runs support kunkka. He always go for armlet etc, maxing tide first. Very inflexible. Sometimes in games that don't go well, early maxed X and torrent can do so much work with nothing but levels. The chinese scene seems somewhat inflexible with builds, dunno. Also x is very similar to glimpse, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game if you are ahead. I don't really see any reason to max tidebringer first unless you actually farm/lane a lot or are super low in the damage department. I guess Lamn will have his reasons. I can only wonder what they are though. Er Kunkka has 3.0 Str gain. That's pretty high... He tends to be squishy because his agi gain sucks and he rarely itemizes armor. <.< Looked at his agi gain. Sorry, I'll just shut up about him being squishy cause I apparently have no clue. Probably mixed him up with another hero, could have sworn that he was surprisingly squishy. Maybe he isn't that terrible after all in a 1v2 lane. I still don't see him in a 1v3 lane when everyone is abandoning offlane and goes iron talon.
The reason you think of kunkka as squishy is because kunkkas usually itemize to be glass cannons with multiple crits, blink, rapier, etc. But yeah I agree that in the iron talon meta there is no reason to run him offlane.
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I mean the lanm thing isn't a real offlane. It's a 4pos that leeches from the lane because the actual offlaner is in the jungle, and then for some reason builds carry items.
The very fact that this is being considered shows how badly iron talon has mangled the earlygame.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
so ppl right now like to get armlet on him, but with no lifesteal or other regen item. how do ppl play around that
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On October 22 2016 02:26 ahswtini wrote:
so ppl right now like to get armlet on him, but with no lifesteal or other regen item. how do ppl play around that
if you're talking about support kunkka, you only really leave armlet on after you use boat, when the 50% damage reduction kicks in. otherwise you just toggle it to hit once during tidebringer after you hit a torrent in a gank, so it really doesnt cost you much health at all.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/b/b9/Kunkka_torrent.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/e/e3/Kunkka_tidebringer.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/0/0f/Kunkka_x_marks_the_spot.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/b/be/Kunkka_ghost_ship.png)
