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On October 30 2012 07:46 Absurd Bunny wrote:
I know people hate how LoL players compare LoL to Dota 2, and I'm not going to do that, but I want to try to get differences and the feeling for learning things in Dota 2 instead of LoL. No idea if this is considered simple answers and questions, maybe it is, but it might be a lot.
1. So a basic team for LoL would be an AP carry, AD carry, jungler, support, and tank. The support and tank are going to be the same, but will there be more than 1 carry? If so, would they all be agility? What roles need to be in 1 team?
2. When I'm starting out, should I go off the recommended section, or should I look up builds on the internet and copy them from there? What sites are good to start out with?
3. What are easy heroes to play?
I think that's all for now that can come off the top of my mind, if there's more I'll be sure to ask.
1. it varies a lot
2. either is fine, the recommended items are usually okay enough
3. here
also take a look here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=365959
edit: also yango ur missing some heroes in that hero list
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On October 30 2012 07:46 Absurd Bunny wrote:
I know people hate how LoL players compare LoL to Dota 2, and I'm not going to do that, but I want to try to get differences and the feeling for learning things in Dota 2 instead of LoL. No idea if this is considered simple answers and questions, maybe it is, but it might be a lot.
1. So a basic team for LoL would be an AP carry, AD carry, jungler, support, and tank. The support and tank are going to be the same, but will there be more than 1 carry? If so, would they all be agility? What roles need to be in 1 team?
2. When I'm starting out, should I go off the recommended section, or should I look up builds on the internet and copy them from there? What sites are good to start out with?
3. What are easy heroes to play?
I think that's all for now that can come off the top of my mind, if there's more I'll be sure to ask.
1) So the roles in DOTA are carry, support, initiator, jungle, and there are a few tanks. The supports are usually more powerful (especially early) than in LoL and really all you need in any game are carries and supports. Initiators are good for setting up fights (e.g. SK, Enigma, Centaur). Junglers are not necessary in every game like LoL, but the idea is the same that they get more gold out of the map for your team. Tanks (e.g. Axe, Centaur, Undying) are the rarest role because they are not really needed.
2) The recommended buids are pretty good, but if you find yourself wanting to play a specific character you can look up recent games with that Hero and see what those people built
3) I think that the easiest Heros are STR carries because they build tankyness with their dps. The one thing is that they are nearly all melee which can be hard, especially if you don't have a ranged support with you to make space in your lane. I have to say that supports are actually the hardest (unless you are with a friend on carry that can instruct you to ez kills) because they are super squishy, and you have to have a strong understanding of the game to make them effective.
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On October 30 2012 04:35 RuiBarbO wrote:
So I see that people have been talking about which heroes make for good suicide laners. What is it in general that makes a hero good for suicide lane? Conversely what makes heroes especially bad in that lane?
Good suicide lane heroes have some sort fo escape ability another plus is heroes that dont really need farm to be to be effective. Bad heroes for heroes in the suicide lane are heroes that need gold and if you dont have an escape ability your gonna die alot.
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On October 30 2012 07:46 Absurd Bunny wrote:
I know people hate how LoL players compare LoL to Dota 2, and I'm not going to do that, but I want to try to get differences and the feeling for learning things in Dota 2 instead of LoL. No idea if this is considered simple answers and questions, maybe it is, but it might be a lot.
1. So a basic team for LoL would be an AP carry, AD carry, jungler, support, and tank. The support and tank are going to be the same, but will there be more than 1 carry? If so, would they all be agility? What roles need to be in 1 team?
2. When I'm starting out, should I go off the recommended section, or should I look up builds on the internet and copy them from there? What sites are good to start out with?
3. What are easy heroes to play?
I think that's all for now that can come off the top of my mind, if there's more I'll be sure to ask.
As a former LoL player who switched to Dota 2, I might have some insight on these:
1) Forget everything you know about position sets, like in LoL. Dota is a much more fluid experience, and there are multiple ways to "lane" the game. There are viable 2-1-2, 3-1-1 and 2-1-1-1 strategies in Dota, and you'll see all three used at a competitive level. In addition, in competitive Dota, we tend to number the positions based on farm priorities. So a 1 would be your hard carry who needs maximum farm. A 5 would be your support who needs the least amount of farm. In most pub games, this is irrelevant, but it's something to keep in mind if you plan to watch any competitive Dota.
As far as carries, in a pub game, you'll generally end up with multiple carries, because it's what people want to play, but at the competitive level, you tend to only have one true 'hard carry' on a team, but you'll generally have a durable or ganking semi-carry in your 2 or 3 slot.
There are carries of every attribute type in Dota. As a very very loose rule of thumb, agility carries tend to be attack speed based, strength carries tend to be durable and int carries tend to be nuke heavy. This is by no means a RULE, it's just a loose pattern. There are clear exceptions to it in all three stat rosters.
All the stat of a hero really implies is what stat scales their right click damage. There are some more systemic things to think about, but for now that's all you need to worry about. A heroes primary attribute scales their right click.
2) The recommended items are fine, but once you identify some heroes you like to play, I would go online and research more specialized builds for them, and learn when to use them. You'll find that the recommended items in game tend to be super generalist, and not meant to handle any one situation well, just meant to handle all situations passably (which is mostly what you want in low level pubs).
3) If you tell me what you're favored LoL role was, I can tell you some heroes to try out. I wouldn't worry about "easiest". Play what you find fun and interesting, regardless of difficulty, and you'll stay interested in the game and want to learn it.
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How do you set up wisp stuns in lane? go around and use teather to latch them on the way to your ally as to not get caught out of position?
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On October 30 2012 04:49 Brainling wrote:
If you understand how to play Broodmother, you will absolutely dominate the suicide lane in lower tier games. Utterly dominate it. Even more so than Darkseer, who is much more "obvious" how to counter for a newer/lower skilled player. At the higher skill levels, she's fallen out of favor, but at lower skill levels? I make people hate the suicide lane when I Broodmother it up.
The really annoying thing with playing brood is that your teammates will likely have no idea how to split push. Normally you can either pressure a tower if they send no one back while your team acts defensive, kill anyone who is weak who tries to defend, then be even better off when you are pushing, or have a farmed carry or multiple people come to defend, in which case your team can win a 4 vs their remainders. In pubs, however, they jump in 4v5, die miserably, then blame you for not being there while you can't push a tower because someone is defending.
On October 30 2012 07:46 Absurd Bunny wrote:
I know people hate how LoL players compare LoL to Dota 2, and I'm not going to do that, but I want to try to get differences and the feeling for learning things in Dota 2 instead of LoL. No idea if this is considered simple answers and questions, maybe it is, but it might be a lot.
1. So a basic team for LoL would be an AP carry, AD carry, jungler, support, and tank. The support and tank are going to be the same, but will there be more than 1 carry? If so, would they all be agility? What roles need to be in 1 team?
2. When I'm starting out, should I go off the recommended section, or should I look up builds on the internet and copy them from there? What sites are good to start out with?
3. What are easy heroes to play?
I think that's all for now that can come off the top of my mind, if there's more I'll be sure to ask.
Tank is not a role in DotA that needs to be fulfilled. Due to items like blink dagger and heroes like AM, if you play buff people in front with squishes in the back, someone will jump on the squishies and kill them. There are heroes that are tanky, but generally they need to be, due to placing themselves in danger. Low hp carries like drow and sniper will often get BKB to be able to stand up to the enemy to a certain extent, while building items that let them kite, such as drum and manta.
A "tank" may in fact be a carry - DK, CK, alch, etc are all very tanky due to being Str heroes, yet are DPS carries. Many other non-naturally-tanky heroes, like AM, will become tanky due to the nature of carry items - butterfly gives evasion, manta dispels debuffs, and many items will give str, increasing hp.
Heroes like axe and centaur use their natural tankyness to dive into the middle of the enemy team with impunity, letting them use their disruptive abilities to the max. They fill the role of a tank, yet are often unessential.
On item builds - the recommended items are OK most of the time. You can search for better ones though (playdota has some good ones apparently, and you can ask here on TL). But eventually you should get used to all the items and make your own decisions - each game is situational, and some items are better in certain situations - ghost sceptre may be needed vs a high DPS carry like ursa, or a heaven's halberd may be more appropriate. BKB may be necessary vs a lineup with high amounts of CC and/or nuking, etc etc.
For a LoL player, I would suggest starting out with heroes like tide, sand king, skeleton king, and chaos knight. They are all tanky heroes which have pretty clear roles, but they teach something very crucial that LoL players often lack - mana management. After you get used to mana management, pretty much any hero is fine - avoid visage, invoker, chen, meepo, syllabear, enchantress, and a few others until you have a little more experience though.
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On October 31 2012 12:28 LazyFailKid wrote:
How do you set up wisp stuns in lane? go around and use teather to latch them on the way to your ally as to not get caught out of position?
The best way is to have your lane partner, who is usually gonna be someone like Tiny or CK, stun and then get behind them as you're tethered, to have the tether be the second chained stun - basically having him set up your tether stun, since he needs to be in melee range anyway to attack, he can just get on the other side of them. But with pubs that might be hard to do. You just gotta be creative with it sometimes and do what you can to hit it, like going behind them and then tethering back to your ally, like you said. Communication with whoever you're tethering is generally important, though, if they aren't taking the hint that they are part of what's needed to stun with the tether sometimes.
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On October 31 2012 12:28 LazyFailKid wrote:
How do you set up wisp stuns in lane? go around and use teather to latch them on the way to your ally as to not get caught out of position?
CK, AntiMage, etc. Reality rift and AM blink both guarantee a stun out of tether (reality rift puts you BEHIND your opponent), although depending on how close you are, you may need to wait on the tether until after your ally initiates (due to the tether breaking). Otherwise, as was mentioned heroes like tiny can stun -> run by for a similar effect.
Setting up a "positional" tether that hits without any abilities being cast first generally involves the opponent misplaying/overcommiting/being bad, rather than any particularly great positioning by you and/or your ally.
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On October 31 2012 12:55 LAN-f34r wrote:
For a LoL player, I would suggest starting out with heroes like tide, sand king, skeleton king, and chaos knight. They are all tanky heroes which have pretty clear roles, but they teach something very crucial that LoL players often lack - mana management. After you get used to mana management, pretty much any hero is fine - avoid visage, invoker, chen, meepo, syllabear, enchantress, and a few others until you have a little more experience though.
I agree with almost everything you said here except about Syllabear. Syllabear is probably the best hero to practice multi-unit micro with, for a couple of reasons:
1) It's only one extra unit, and you will actually be using Spirit Bear for most of what you do anyway. All your last hitting is generally done while controlling the bear.
2) You are forced to keep Sylla and Bearenstein close together, or the bear can't attack. This teaches you how to move multiple units around together.
3) He's relatively buff, and naturally makes the bear better just by leveling skills.
4) Great first jungler because of how beefy the bear is, making jungling much easier.
I agree it's not a great first hero, but once you feel comfortable enough to want to practice a hero that has sub-units, I think Syllabear is one of the best to go with first. Heroes like Enigma don't really qualify because the Eidelons are too fire and forget. Syllabear actually requires you to micro the bear, but does't overwhelm you with a bunch of controlled unit actives like Chen or Enchantress do.
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This may have been posted before, but I can't find it via searching.
What exactly should I be looking to purge as Shadow Demon? Should I look out for major buffs like Sven's ult? I've just been using it as a slow/nuke.
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On November 02 2012 00:13 eauxlune wrote:
This may have been posted before, but I can't find it via searching.
What exactly should I be looking to purge as Shadow Demon? Should I look out for major buffs like Sven's ult? I've just been using it as a slow/nuke.
Using it as a Slow/Nuke earlier on at low skill levels is fine, especially since SD is such a great ganking support (much like CM).
Eventually you'll want to learn what effects it can purge. That said, most Ult's cannot be purged, and I'm pretty sure Sven's is on that list. You're better trying to learn what characters have non-ultimate steroids that you can purge...such as Clinkz (just off the top of my head on that one).
Also keep in mind that Demonic Purge is BKB piercing, but does not remove Avatar. It will slow them, but they keep their magic immunity to other things. This also applies to Naix's Rage (which is effectively a BKB).
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On November 02 2012 00:13 eauxlune wrote:
This may have been posted before, but I can't find it via searching.
What exactly should I be looking to purge as Shadow Demon? Should I look out for major buffs like Sven's ult? I've just been using it as a slow/nuke.
In a general you should be prioritizing as follows:
1) Initiator heroes that rely on walking in i.e. tide/enigma/es, magnus and sk can to some extent get around your purge but its not a big deal.
2) Heroes with important purge-able buffs, for example you can purge broodmother's insatiable hunger that way.
3) Hard Carry melee heroes ( naix, slardar etc) this allows you to kite them much easier so they deal significantly reduced damage.
4) The rest have no real interaction with purge beyond the fact that it slows them down, allowing you to catch up. i'm not 100% positive on this but i believe SD purge removes dust ( i know diffusal and eul's do) so be careful when using it on a dusted target)
P.S. Sven's ult used to be purge-able that is no longer the case however
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406048 is a reference for most purges, it doesn't give you priority listing but it helps out with the mechanics
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This perhaps might not be a simple question (as it might be hard for most to answer):
when a pro team runs a hero like Chen or Enchantress, do they ever share control of the creeps like they do with sylla?
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On November 02 2012 02:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
This perhaps might not be a simple question (as it might be hard for most to answer):
when a pro team runs a hero like Chen or Enchantress, do they ever share control of the creeps like they do with sylla?
Some do, some dont. Usually even heroes like PL you give shared control of units away to some1 so when they die or are not busy can micro your illusions during a teamfight. Alot of heroes benefit from shared control, meepo being the most I believe.
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On November 02 2012 00:13 eauxlune wrote:
This may have been posted before, but I can't find it via searching.
What exactly should I be looking to purge as Shadow Demon? Should I look out for major buffs like Sven's ult? I've just been using it as a slow/nuke.
Also purging warlocks ultimate is handy. It instantly kills summons.
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On November 02 2012 03:02 Entertaining wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 02:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
This perhaps might not be a simple question (as it might be hard for most to answer):
when a pro team runs a hero like Chen or Enchantress, do they ever share control of the creeps like they do with sylla?
Some do, some dont. Usually even heroes like PL you give shared control of units away to some1 so when they die or are not busy can micro your illusions during a teamfight. Alot of heroes benefit from shared control, meepo being the most I believe.
yea I wonder if meepo could be viable in a pro team if everyone controlled different clones
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why is PL not played more, he seems so insane with just treads,diffusal,manta and just gets stronger from there. he has a way to escape ganks, (invisibility=invincibility in pubs) that gives him bonus movespeed and a strong nuke that slows. Is he too easy to kill early and im overestimating him vs good players or what?
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On November 02 2012 00:09 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 12:55 LAN-f34r wrote:
For a LoL player, I would suggest starting out with heroes like tide, sand king, skeleton king, and chaos knight. They are all tanky heroes which have pretty clear roles, but they teach something very crucial that LoL players often lack - mana management. After you get used to mana management, pretty much any hero is fine - avoid visage, invoker, chen, meepo, syllabear, enchantress, and a few others until you have a little more experience though. I agree with almost everything you said here except about Syllabear. Syllabear is probably the best hero to practice multi-unit micro with, for a couple of reasons: 1) It's only one extra unit, and you will actually be using Spirit Bear for most of what you do anyway. All your last hitting is generally done while controlling the bear. 2) You are forced to keep Sylla and Bearenstein close together, or the bear can't attack. This teaches you how to move multiple units around together. 3) He's relatively buff, and naturally makes the bear better just by leveling skills. 4) Great first jungler because of how beefy the bear is, making jungling much easier. I agree it's not a great first hero, but once you feel comfortable enough to want to practice a hero that has sub-units, I think Syllabear is one of the best to go with first. Heroes like Enigma don't really qualify because the Eidelons are too fire and forget. Syllabear actually requires you to micro the bear, but does't overwhelm you with a bunch of controlled unit actives like Chen or Enchantress do.
On the other hand, screwing up is REALLY bad. If chen loses a few creeps during the game, he can still mek/ult, send people back, arcanes, and nuke/amplify. Ench can still slow and imp people. If you lose your bear stupidly, you probably lose a fight/opportunity.
And jungling with him is terrible. You should be playing him in lane - probably where the micro is hardest.
Enigma is a much better option for learning micro. Much simpler to control, and the only micro you really have to do is when you have utterly nothing else to do - when you jungle, you don't have to deal with an enemy or focus on last hitting or anything like that. Screwing up your micro has limited consequences, which is good when you are starting from scratch. He also has other good aspects for a beginner hero - teaches mana management (especially important if you are from LoL), and helps you get a feel for teamfights/initiation, while being relatively simple.
Sure, sylla isn't that hard to play decently. But neither is invoker. Its probably not the best idea to play these heroes until you have a decent idea of what is happening. The idea is to get people to know what they are getting themselves into before they pick the hero.
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United States47024 Posts
Practically speaking, a lot of Syllabear's difficulty comes not from the fact that he needs a lot of micro, but that he's a very timing-sensitive hero.
In a "normal" (e.g. not 6+ major items) late-game, Syllabear is not all that impressive of a hard carry. His strength relies on making good use out of his specific item timings to push and take towers, and both you and your team have to be very cognizant of this fact. Squandering your first Radi push or your first AC push by farming instead of pushing when you should is a very easy way to lose the game as Sylla.
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In pubs that doesn't really matter, however. You may well get radi at like 25 minutes due to laning with a carry. But they probably won't even have mek by then. Timing may matter in a competitive match, but it means nigh nothing in pubs.
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EPT
