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On October 11 2012 20:20 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lazy It will quickly pay for itself if you get it once you have your batlle fury.
then why people dont do it on antimage as well? since both have a very similar item build early on (when you go battlefury on FV) and only buy it after they get battlefury on antimage to clear the jungle?
On October 11 2012 21:45 Alex) wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lane control. You can deny your enemy alot more and its easier to keep the lane more static outside your tower.
that doesnt really make sense to me since stout shield will negate harass that you take while quelling blade gives you a ~5bonus damage early levels unless my math is way off? Am i missing a big point here about faceless void? T_T
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On October 11 2012 22:41 YunhOLee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:20 Kipsate wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lazy It will quickly pay for itself if you get it once you have your batlle fury. then why people dont do it on antimage as well? since both have a very similar item build early on (when you go battlefury on FV) and only buy it after they get battlefury on antimage to clear the jungle? Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:45 Alex) wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lane control. You can deny your enemy alot more and its easier to keep the lane more static outside your tower. that doesnt really make sense to me since stout shield will negate harass that you take while quelling blade gives you a ~5bonus damage early levels unless my math is way off? Am i missing a big point here about faceless void? T_T
Both AM and FV are very similar at the start; pretty useless melee heroes at the start unless you get a big ulti off, also with a pretty similar escape mechanism. The builds for AM have been well studied because he gets played so often, but it's a mystery for FV because he doesn't see as much high level play (that might change with 6.75, too early to tell though). Imo, you could do the same build for AM and FV; if you can last hit proficiently you probably don't need the quelling blade.
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On October 11 2012 22:41 YunhOLee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:20 Kipsate wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lazy It will quickly pay for itself if you get it once you have your batlle fury. then why people dont do it on antimage as well? since both have a very similar item build early on (when you go battlefury on FV) and only buy it after they get battlefury on antimage to clear the jungle? Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:45 Alex) wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lane control. You can deny your enemy alot more and its easier to keep the lane more static outside your tower. that doesnt really make sense to me since stout shield will negate harass that you take while quelling blade gives you a ~5bonus damage early levels unless my math is way off? Am i missing a big point here about faceless void? T_T
Simple reason; it is easier to lasthit the more dmg you do. Loads of early lasthits = win.
And btw your math is really way of. I do not know his base dmg but lets assume it is around 50.
50*1.32 = 66.
That means it gives you 16 dmg. And as its percentage based it will give you more the more dmg you gain etc.
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On October 12 2012 00:18 njt7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 22:41 YunhOLee wrote:On October 11 2012 20:20 Kipsate wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lazy It will quickly pay for itself if you get it once you have your batlle fury. then why people dont do it on antimage as well? since both have a very similar item build early on (when you go battlefury on FV) and only buy it after they get battlefury on antimage to clear the jungle? On October 11 2012 21:45 Alex) wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lane control. You can deny your enemy alot more and its easier to keep the lane more static outside your tower. that doesnt really make sense to me since stout shield will negate harass that you take while quelling blade gives you a ~5bonus damage early levels unless my math is way off? Am i missing a big point here about faceless void? T_T Simple reason; it is easier to lasthit the more dmg you do. Loads of early lasthits = win. And btw your math is really way of. I do not know his base dmg but lets assume it is around 50. 50*1.32 = 66. That means it gives you 16 dmg. And as its percentage based it will give you more the more dmg you gain etc.
FV actually starts with 58-64 base damage, which is more then high enough to get easy last hits from level 1 w/o qb.
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You take early QB on melees in three cases:
1. You are sure you will have 100% free farm and it will help you freeze the lane even easier, you don't need the stout shield anyway
2. You suck at last hitting with this hero and don't feel like learning now
3. Your farm is contested but the harass is not a concern (mostly applies to dragon knight with dragon blood)
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On October 11 2012 22:41 YunhOLee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:20 Kipsate wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lazy It will quickly pay for itself if you get it once you have your batlle fury. then why people dont do it on antimage as well? since both have a very similar item build early on (when you go battlefury on FV) and only buy it after they get battlefury on antimage to clear the jungle? Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:45 Alex) wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lane control. You can deny your enemy alot more and its easier to keep the lane more static outside your tower. that doesnt really make sense to me since stout shield will negate harass that you take while quelling blade gives you a ~5bonus damage early levels unless my math is way off? Am i missing a big point here about faceless void? T_T
Quelling Blade is a lazy item. Yet on some heroes, you don't really need to spend the starting gold on too much other stuff. To isolate the situation, let's look at Anti-Mage and compare him to Faceless Void.
In terms of lane durability, Anti-Mage is much worse off than Faceless Void. Faceless Void has nearly double the starting armor of Anti-Mage (3.94 vs 2.08). This means that Void blocks nearly 20% of enemy physical damage while Anti-Mage only blocks 11%. In terms of defensive passives, Backtrack is more (obviously) useful than Spell Shield against physical damage.
Assuming you start off with a heavy amount of regeneration--6 tangoes and a healing salve, you have 323 gold left. Anti-Mage needs the Stout Shield to prevent him from getting harassed off the lane. Faceless Void, less so.
Now, when fighting for last hits as a hard carry you don't care as much about denying your own creep, but you do care about not wanting to be denied. Anti-Mage has a better attack animation than Void, but his damage is inferior. A Quelling Blade on Anti-Mage boosts his average starting damage to 67, while Void's is pumped to 81. Both heroes will most likely be going for a Ring of Health first (or perhaps Tranquil Boots), and then will want a Quelling Blade later for Battle Fury.
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Somewhat related, what about starting item Ring of Protection on AM for a Tranquil Boots rush, and stout later?
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alright thanks guys for the in depth explanation/comparisons between fv and am 
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On October 12 2012 00:31 Qbek wrote:
You take early QB on melees in three cases:
1. You are sure you will have 100% free farm and it will help you freeze the lane even easier, you don't need the stout shield anyway
2. You suck at last hitting with this hero and don't feel like learning now
3. Your farm is contested but the harass is not a concern (mostly applies to dragon knight with dragon blood)
For the third case, I'd also add solo mid Bloodseeker, relying on Bloodbath to counteract harass.
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On October 12 2012 00:08 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 22:41 YunhOLee wrote:On October 11 2012 20:20 Kipsate wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lazy It will quickly pay for itself if you get it once you have your batlle fury. then why people dont do it on antimage as well? since both have a very similar item build early on (when you go battlefury on FV) and only buy it after they get battlefury on antimage to clear the jungle? On October 11 2012 21:45 Alex) wrote:On October 11 2012 20:17 YunhOLee wrote:
does there is a specific reason why so many people buy a quelling blade on FV? he has an amazing attack animation and decent level 1 damage Lane control. You can deny your enemy alot more and its easier to keep the lane more static outside your tower. that doesnt really make sense to me since stout shield will negate harass that you take while quelling blade gives you a ~5bonus damage early levels unless my math is way off? Am i missing a big point here about faceless void? T_T Both AM and FV are very similar at the start; pretty useless melee heroes at the start unless you get a big ulti off, also with a pretty similar escape mechanism. The builds for AM have been well studied because he gets played so often, but it's a mystery for FV because he doesn't see as much high level play (that might change with 6.75, too early to tell though). Imo, you could do the same build for AM and FV; if you can last hit proficiently you probably don't need the quelling blade.
my fav build for fv is typical pms (with tangos), into bf. then depending on my farm, i either go straight to buriza, or grab a mom first. and i finish it off with a bfly. (situational would be grabbing bkb after bf, but that's more if your participating in a lot of team fights against disablers and not afk farming. with a good chrono, bf alone is enough to grab kills mid game.)
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On October 12 2012 01:49 DoNotDisturb wrote:
Somewhat related, what about starting item Ring of Protection on AM for a Tranquil Boots rush, and stout later?
This is one of the build that I love. With this build, you can play a very aggressive AM, dominate your lane. You can skip regen orbs and get broadsword/claymore for additional damage. From my experience, you will always win 1v1 situation when you finish your transquil boot and pmshield.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2012 00:31 Qbek wrote:
You take early QB on melees in three cases:
1. You are sure you will have 100% free farm and it will help you freeze the lane even easier, you don't need the stout shield anyway
2. You suck at last hitting with this hero and don't feel like learning now
3. Your farm is contested but the harass is not a concern (mostly applies to dragon knight with dragon blood)
Pretty much this.
The vast majority of the time, QB should only be bought when you're transitioning into using it to farm jungle.
That said, Dragon Knight usually shouldn't even bother with it because Bottle/Soul Ring for Breathe Fire spam are both normal and more appropriate.
On October 12 2012 01:49 DoNotDisturb wrote:
Somewhat related, what about starting item Ring of Protection on AM for a Tranquil Boots rush, and stout later?
Two reasons:
1) Stout Shield is vastly superior to Ring of Protection for level 1 survivability. Suppose we have a 2 base armor hero, and enemies are hitting you for ~50 damage per hit. Stout's 60% of 20 block = average 12 damage blocked per hit.
- With Stout Shield, you take an average of ~34 damage per hit
- With RoP you take an average of ~41 damage per hit
The effect is even more pronounced when you take into account the fact that creep damage is often a large part of early game exchanges for melee heroes, and creep damage is low enough that Stout blocks negate creep hits entirely.
2) Tranquil Boots isn't a guaranteed item choice for Antimage. The regen is more or less redundant with Battle Fury, and so if you actually can get smoothly to RoH/Battle Fury parts, you should often opt for Treads because the Tranquil's regen is superfluous (you'll note that at TI2, in most free-farm situations, AMs chose to get Treads--it's only in situations where you need the regen pretty badly that you will opt for Tranquils in addition to Battle Fury).
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On October 12 2012 03:54 TheYango wrote:
2) Tranquil Boots isn't a guaranteed item choice for Antimage. The regen is more or less redundant with Battle Fury, and so if you actually can get smoothly to RoH/Battle Fury parts, you should often opt for Treads because the Tranquil's regen is superfluous (you'll note that at TI2, in most free-farm situations, AMs chose to get Treads--it's only in situations where you need the regen pretty badly that you will opt for Tranquils in addition to Battle Fury).
I used to think like that too until I try it. With TBoot, AM will have superior regen, armor, speed compared to his enemies. It allows me to be ultra aggressive with AM in lane and not getting punished for it. The only thing AM will lose is to fight 1v1 against 900hp-no-mana dudes, or got chained stun to dead. You can literally walk up to auto attack the enemy heroes and they can't do sh!t about it.
So while regen ring only keeps you alive for 875gold (slow regen, no speed), TBoot can actually make you own the lane for 850 (+move speed, burst regen, +armor). And what's the actual cost anyway. You can dissemble the boots and get the full boot back, selling the rest and get 50% money back. In the end, you only lose 263 gold for total domination of lane, and that's only 6 creepkill...
Of course I'm not saying Transquil Boots is a must-built item, but I'm positive that it's an excellent items on AM.
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On October 12 2012 05:57 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:54 TheYango wrote:
2) Tranquil Boots isn't a guaranteed item choice for Antimage. The regen is more or less redundant with Battle Fury, and so if you actually can get smoothly to RoH/Battle Fury parts, you should often opt for Treads because the Tranquil's regen is superfluous (you'll note that at TI2, in most free-farm situations, AMs chose to get Treads--it's only in situations where you need the regen pretty badly that you will opt for Tranquils in addition to Battle Fury). I used to think like that too until I try it. With TBoot, AM will have superior regen, armor, speed compared to his enemies. It allows me to be ultra aggressive with AM in lane and not getting punished for it. The only thing AM will lose is to fight 1v1 against 900hp-no-mana dudes, or got chained stun to dead. You can literally walk up to auto attack the enemy heroes and they can't do sh!t about it. So while regen ring only keeps you alive for 875gold (slow regen, no speed), TBoot can actually make you own the lane for 850 (+move speed, burst regen, +armor). And what's the actual cost anyway. You can dissemble the boots and get the full boot back, selling the rest and get 50% money back. In the end, you only lose 263 gold for total domination of lane. Of course I'm not saying Transquil Boots is a must-built item, but I'm positive that it's an excellent items on AM.
Tboots are good when you're facing harassment, but it's pointless if you want to walk up to the enemy to slap him a few times with a large trout. The objective of AM is to farm, farm, farm, and get kills if you're confident that it brings more benefit than farming. There's no real need to harass the opponent; that's what your supports are supposed to do. Not to mention, it delays your battlefury by 525 gold, which is your ticket to big farm.
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On October 12 2012 06:15 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 05:57 canikizu wrote:On October 12 2012 03:54 TheYango wrote:
2) Tranquil Boots isn't a guaranteed item choice for Antimage. The regen is more or less redundant with Battle Fury, and so if you actually can get smoothly to RoH/Battle Fury parts, you should often opt for Treads because the Tranquil's regen is superfluous (you'll note that at TI2, in most free-farm situations, AMs chose to get Treads--it's only in situations where you need the regen pretty badly that you will opt for Tranquils in addition to Battle Fury). I used to think like that too until I try it. With TBoot, AM will have superior regen, armor, speed compared to his enemies. It allows me to be ultra aggressive with AM in lane and not getting punished for it. The only thing AM will lose is to fight 1v1 against 900hp-no-mana dudes, or got chained stun to dead. You can literally walk up to auto attack the enemy heroes and they can't do sh!t about it. So while regen ring only keeps you alive for 875gold (slow regen, no speed), TBoot can actually make you own the lane for 850 (+move speed, burst regen, +armor). And what's the actual cost anyway. You can dissemble the boots and get the full boot back, selling the rest and get 50% money back. In the end, you only lose 263 gold for total domination of lane. Of course I'm not saying Transquil Boots is a must-built item, but I'm positive that it's an excellent items on AM. Tboots are good when you're facing harassment, but it's pointless if you want to walk up to the enemy to slap him a few times with a large trout. The objective of AM is to farm, farm, farm, and get kills if you're confident that it brings more benefit than farming. There's no real need to harass the opponent; that's what your supports are supposed to do. Not to mention, it delays your battlefury by 525 gold, which is your ticket to big farm.
How many times you play AM and doesn't face harassment? That's quite vague.
That's why I said it's not a must-built item. If you have total domination in your lane since the beginning, if your support do such a good job that you have so much room to do your stuff, if the enemies are retard and don't pound autoattack on you whenever you show up to last hit, then sure, TBoots is a bad choice, but from my experience playing dota, the enemies tend to play dis game to kick ass.
And I don't think going TBoot will delay you 525 gold...
- You can dissemble items and sell it to get half money back. Hell, you don't even need to sell it, just dissemble it and make it to vlad, which is quite a common item on AM anyway.
- You can actually jungle medium creep camp quite easily once you have Tboots, so you can jungle more much earlier. If you go regen orb and skip boot, you can no way jungle and lane at the same time, but with Tboots+80 speed, you can jungle and get back to lane easily.
- Once you have TBoots, you can start working on claymore/broadsword, skipping perseverance orbs, and those +damage items will help you further in laning and early jungling. Look at it another way, TBoots is redundant once you have regen orb, so don't get regen orb and get those other items first.
So, you "kind of" give up 525 gold early to have an opportunity to have much better laning phrase, and potentially much better return.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2012 05:57 canikizu wrote:
Of course I'm not saying Transquil Boots is a must-built item, but I'm positive that it's an excellent items on AM.
So you're saying the exact same thing I am.
The point is that you shouldn't START with the RoP (which is what was being suggested) as your starting item because a) you're not guaranteed to make Tranquil's, and b) Stout is way better at low levels. It's much smoother to go Stout THEN Tranquil's, rather than start the RoP and try to get to Tranquil's without Stout because Stout Shield's low level trading power is vastly superior to any other starting item.
The vast majority of the time melee carries should be going to lane with Stout Shield (and pretty much ALL the time in pubs when you don't know who's laning with you/against you). It's safer and more reliable than pretty much any other way to spend your starting 603 gold.
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So I just recently played a string of games where I pretty much sucked as TA because I couldn't figure out how to participate effectively in team fights, especially before I got a BKB. So I more or less just ran around the map trying to farm up levels, which did not make my teammates very happy (and which was pretty boring for me too). Is there something I am missing about using TA after the laning phase? How should I be approaching team fights in a more effective way, or should I instead avoid them and just try to pick off vulnerable lone heroes?
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On October 11 2012 15:25 Mataza wrote:
Assuming you had your gargoyle thingies out, you could have also micro´d them and used their landing skill which stuns in an area.
Iirc that skill can´t be silenced and is the second best thing to use in a teamfight besides hitting enemies with your skills.
In general you should try to not stand in a bulk with 4 guys of your team, it makes you weak against area skills(like for example silence). It is a good habit to position yourself a certain distance away from the next hero to avoid area effect(so that a small aoe can fit between you without hitting both).
The small delay in walking towards the front of the battle is really small and much better than everyone in your team getting stunned by 1 skill.
TL;DR position yourself always as if before a battle or you start any battle with disdvantage. It´s ok to stand in groups of 2 when all 5 are together, but it´s not ok to stand in a group of 4 as that´s just stupid.
Alright, Thanks! So the best way to defend yourself is to not let it happen. Also I'm pretty sure you can silence the familiars since they are classified as heroes (or i was mashing the wrong button  )
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I get stout shield + QB + tango on most melee carries.
I guess it's something I carried with me from HoN, but honestly, you often just need to focus on the farm early game. Sure, if you have a great support or just a great lane, you might not need the QB, but if you don't ... well, it does help, and it's quite cheap. If you know, that you hero can "boom" decently early and needs mana, then getting a RoP instead might be smart, but otherwise ... well, it varies SO much from hero to hero, from game to game.
However: Magina/FV/BS/DK/Jugger/Kunkka/Naix/PA/Riki/Spectre are probably the ones I'd mostly always get it on. AGAIN, IT'S DIFFERENT FROM GAME TO GAME! And, if I knew I had a freefarm/had to go mid, I'd probably do something different.
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shield+qb+tango doesn't work very well unless you have someone feeding you regen or an incredibly easy lane
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EPT
