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On October 06 2012 07:10 scorch- wrote:
The midas concept is that it increases the gold/xp available on the map for your team for the rest of the game. Could another item do a better job of that? "What item can I buy that gets my team the most gold and xp for the rest of the game?" If you have a team that can't take map control, but who can defend towers well, midas is probably your best choice because you're going to be stuck on your side of the map for 30 minutes and you need all the xp and gold you can find while you defend and protect your carry. Additionally, invoker is the type of hero that improves in a significant way with every single level he gets up to 25. Really, invoker is a great protector/defender in 4+1 strats because of his strong lane presence, tornado/emp combo, and later on his DB/CM combo. He's not really a great hero for pushing strats, so in my mind, midas can be a good pickup for him in a lot of situations as you're planning on your team being contained or on the back foot for a lot of the game until you hit your stride, and invoker doesn't need a lot of items to hold pushes in the early midgame.
When you buy an item you not only look at what it does but at what cost it comes with. Invoker does not scale well into late game. He peaks at level 12 and maybe again at 17 with aga stick. His spells don't scale well into late game. He's a good team fighting hero being able to crowd control. There's different types of pushing heroes if you want to look at it.
There's those like Night stalker and tide who will dive the tower and you'd back or you'd have to engage if you want to defend your tower and invoker gives crowd control for you to win the battle and push. Then there's those like Tormented soul who will just dps your tower down. And then there's heroes like enigma and furion which summon creatures to push.
Anyway back on track to why midas is not a good pickup for invoker. Firstly you have to invest 1.9k gold in it. When you go for midas as an item you rush it. Meaning that you would slowdown items such as phase boots, power treads, magic wand, drums or force staff. Which ever you choose to get. Personally i feel you skipping boots is a major mistake. For phase boots it gives you the mobility chase down heroes. And as invoker you would want to gank not farm. The additional movement speed to get off a few more coldsnap hits is so much more important to lane control. Not to mention the low damage invoker possesses.
What you want to do as invoker is camp mid and dominate the other hero and get a quick level 12 from then on you can gank or just push and force engagements going for an item that allows instant impact is way more important. Safe lane farmers get midas because they get absolute free farm and they buy it to spike it up even higher but the thing for invoker is that he has to challenge for last hits and midas doesn't help you in it.
I honestly don't see the point of midas on invoker if there's anything i'm not seeing please tell me. I just think there's way better item's for him. Besides Midas would be nice on every hero won't it, more gold more xp but sometimes it's just not the best item.
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On October 06 2012 14:04 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 07:10 scorch- wrote:
The midas concept is that it increases the gold/xp available on the map for your team for the rest of the game. Could another item do a better job of that? "What item can I buy that gets my team the most gold and xp for the rest of the game?" If you have a team that can't take map control, but who can defend towers well, midas is probably your best choice because you're going to be stuck on your side of the map for 30 minutes and you need all the xp and gold you can find while you defend and protect your carry. Additionally, invoker is the type of hero that improves in a significant way with every single level he gets up to 25. Really, invoker is a great protector/defender in 4+1 strats because of his strong lane presence, tornado/emp combo, and later on his DB/CM combo. He's not really a great hero for pushing strats, so in my mind, midas can be a good pickup for him in a lot of situations as you're planning on your team being contained or on the back foot for a lot of the game until you hit your stride, and invoker doesn't need a lot of items to hold pushes in the early midgame. When you buy an item you not only look at what it does but at what cost it comes with. Invoker does not scale well into late game. He peaks at level 12 and maybe again at 17 with aga stick. His spells don't scale well into late game. He's a good team fighting hero being able to crowd control. There's different types of pushing heroes if you want to look at it. There's those like Night stalker and tide who will dive the tower and you'd back or you'd have to engage if you want to defend your tower and invoker gives crowd control for you to win the battle and push. Then there's those like Tormented soul who will just dps your tower down. And then there's heroes like enigma and furion which summon creatures to push. Anyway back on track to why midas is not a good pickup for invoker. Firstly you have to invest 1.9k gold in it. When you go for midas as an item you rush it. Meaning that you would slowdown items such as phase boots, power treads, magic wand, drums or force staff. Which ever you choose to get. Personally i feel you skipping boots is a major mistake. For phase boots it gives you the mobility chase down heroes. And as invoker you would want to gank not farm. The additional movement speed to get off a few more coldsnap hits is so much more important to lane control. Not to mention the low damage invoker possesses. What you want to do as invoker is camp mid and dominate the other hero and get a quick level 12 from then on you can gank or just push and force engagements going for an item that allows instant impact is way more important. Safe lane farmers get midas because they get absolute free farm and they buy it to spike it up even higher but the thing for invoker is that he has to challenge for last hits and midas doesn't help you in it. I honestly don't see the point of midas on invoker if there's anything i'm not seeing please tell me. I just think there's way better item's for him. Besides Midas would be nice on every hero won't it, more gold more xp but sometimes it's just not the best item.
Invoker contributes profusely in the lategame. That is truly the time when invoker shines. This is because he will have max damage from exort, and/or max attack speed from wex. Your alacrity is incredibly strong, your deafening blast is great for slowing down their physical dps. All of your abilities gain a lot of strength, by merely leveling up. In fact, all of your abilities scale by level.
Invoker can dominate heroes early on, even with this midas build. The idea is to use the attack speed it gives, as well as the farm. Therefore, an exort, quas build is best on invoker for this. The extra attack speed helps a lot for proccing cold snap, as well as the extra XP allowing for stronger spells. As noted before, ALL of your spells benifit from levels. As we both know, Invoker (unlike any other hero), can't put skillpoints in stats; instead he puts them in orbs- orbs which upgrade his spells.
1900 investment as a first item. You should have it by 5-6 mins assuming you are mid. You'll get your phase boots by 12 mins. 12 mins is about when you'll hit 10. 10 is a minipeak for invoker, as you should have 2 invokes, 4 exort, and 4 quas (assuming you didn't need a wex for a hard lane). When you get a kill, this means you can easily push down their tower with your double forge spirits.
Of course you can gank before then. Invoker doesn't need a lot of items to conribute early on. He is one of the most versitile heroes, even at level 5. But midas helps him maintain a lead, that he gets from his laning presence.
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just because the item theoretically works on a hero, doesnt mean you should get it
there will always be better items for invoker than a midas, thats why you dont get it
maintaining lead and attack speed doesnt justify buying the item over force staff or drums
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When playing as hard lane dire and are pushed to your tower by bh/undying what do you do? I was playing support and normally I would like to go around the map to gank and kill people but I couldn't leave or they could 24/7 kill riki if he left tower range.
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On October 06 2012 15:04 evilfatsh1t wrote:
just because the item theoretically works on a hero, doesnt mean you should get it
there will always be better items for invoker than a midas, thats why you dont get it
maintaining lead and attack speed doesnt justify buying the item over force staff or drums
Midas Invoker is like Midas Brood
Before you even consider getting this item on anything you should first consider if your hero makes good use of the item. If you can’t take advantage of the IAS it provides you should probably dismiss it right there because there is little sense investing 15 minutes worth of transmute gold on an item that you aren’t even taking advantage of. While IAS is often a secondary reason that some heroes consider Midas they are typically able to take advantage of it.
There are a few main reasons why someone might want to make the item in a game, listed below. Individually it isn’t incredibly difficult to dismiss them as minor benefits, however collectively they make a significant impact.
Accelerated Exp Gain
Increased Gold Income (reliable)
Cheap IAS/Gold in the mid-long term
Creating gold that didn’t already exist
Countering Summons and Converted Creeps
Style <- finesse
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Going to have to disagree with you when you say that Midas serves a similar purpose for Broodmother and for Invoker. Considering that one of the iG players (I forget which one right now) played Brood with Soul Ring -> Midas -> Treads -> BKB -> Orchid, that's already one point in favor of Midas.
For Invoker, Midas isn't that useful. Invoker doesn't rely on auto-attack damage early on, and he needs survivability granted through Phase Boots, Drum, or Force Staff. Brood simply goes invisible and runs away very quickly. With a 2.5 STR gain, she's not lacking for life either. Invoker also needs to have more of an active presence around the map. Brood sits in lane, and when the lane is pushed she invades the jungle. With Midas on Brood, you clear big creep quickly (allowing spiderlings to finish the rest of a camp) and take your levels insanely fast. Yes, Invoker needs levels--but the survivability is paramount, considering Invoker can make his presence felt in team fights. Brood doesn't join in those fights. She simply sits in lane and pushes, and when you can't push anymore you go into the jungle and kill things there quickly with Midas and spiders.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
Midas on Invoker is a nono. You're delaying your effectiveness considerably by using 1900 gold for a midas instead of phase boots/drums/force staff.
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Morphling
How I'm supposed to use morph? Morph agi when laning and switch to str when gonna fight ? Switch to str when someone attacks ? Team fight ?
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
You swap to Agility when laning for damage. You keep it on Agility till people start whacking on you (or you anticipate you're going to get whacked). Remember that you can Morph while disabled. Morph to Strength until people stop whacking you. Then go back to Agility and get fighting again if the situation allows.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't know how you can compare Midas on Invoker to Midas on Brood when one is a midgame teamfighter whose tempo can be significantly be damaged by having to play passively in the 5-15 minute range when Midas is paying for itself (and if you're telling me that having a Midas instead of a Force Staff or Janggo doesn't significantly damage your ability to play actively/aggressively midgame, I call bullshit), and the other is a hero that has weak teamfight presence at pretty much any stage of the game and isn't expected to make major tempo-carrying plays other than controlling/pushing her lane.
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First and foremost increase in AS is nothing if you can't catch up to a person. And if you can farm it in 4-5 minutes i really urge you to show me in a proper skilled game because i highly doubt it. If you can give me evidence i'll be enlightened.
Anyway you say you want to go Quas Exort, i feel that you need the mobility what you gain from it is so much more important. And tell me what's the difference between a level 7 exort level 7 quas at level 17 against a level 7 exort level 7 wex level 7 quas. The reason why invoker doesn't scale well into late game is because ultimately invoker is a spell caster and your spells get capped at level 7 of QWE. Unless you're going pajkatt style of mkb and so on.That's why it doesn't scale well into late game. Finally you must view your hero relative to other heroes. Late game they would have bkb, Manta style which would basically make alot of your spells useless. It's not only about how strong your hero is but how much it influences the game.
Like we all said invoker is crucial in the mid stages of the game and midas just doesn't fit his profile.
Don't tell me at level 25 you have more spells because if you level wex at 18 it's as good as starting from level 1 for those spells.
There are tons of better and more worth items than midas. I still strongly disagree with a midas on invoker. You have no mobility.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing about Midas is that if you are in an active tempo-carrying role, having a real item has the potential to generate more personal/team benefit than Midas would have for you. If you have a Mek, you can push towers/teamfight, both of which generate an enormous windfall of gold (1000+ team gold for a tower kill). If you have a Force Staff or Janggo, you will be able to initiate ganks/fight teamfights that you would not be able to with Midas, and they will allow you to get kills in situations that you would not be able to, and survive situations where you/a teammate would have otherwise died--both of which generate/save gold and experience for your TEAM, not just yourself.
Midas is appropriate for heroes/game scenarios where those types of items would not turn into those kinds of outcomes anyway. Broodmother for example is a hero where you're not going to be ganking or teamfighting anyway at that stage of the game, and having an item like Mek doesn't massively impact your already strong ability to push. But realistically any hero that CAN use such items to make midgame plays (and Invoker is one of them) is better off doing so, rather than buying a Midas.
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On October 06 2012 15:20 LazyFailKid wrote:
When playing as hard lane dire and are pushed to your tower by bh/undying what do you do? I was playing support and normally I would like to go around the map to gank and kill people but I couldn't leave or they could 24/7 kill riki if he left tower range.
if riki was getting all the last hits then itd be worth it to just stay and protect him while he farms in your towers range
if he wasnt getting any farm, then you should just leave lane or ask for ganks. your presence in the lane isnt going to make him farm any worse or better at that point. just tell him to tower hug and try not to get tracked as much as possible
bh is a pretty squishy hero though..at lvl 7, or even 6 depending on which support hero you are, you could probably just kill him anyway
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A player gets Midas because it fits more than the fact that it helps. Its effect on the game isn't being "felt" as transtional and direct as most other items, thus is the applications can be a bit screwed. This problem of comparison between Midas Brood and Midas Invoker compounds as I admit that I should have specified the baller QE build Invoker that is comparable.
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Midas on Invoker I can see only if you are playing him in a dual lane( Maybe to completely crush a lane? dunno) The bonus exp will let you to catch up nicely with levels and you should be getting a lot of last hits as dual laned invo so you will get it early. Other wise, if you have solo xp, go for a way that allows you to lower the enemy xp/gold or push rather than boosting yours
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On October 06 2012 18:21 Shirona Mikazuki wrote:
A player gets Midas because it fits more than the fact that it helps. Its effect on the game isn't being "felt" as transtional and direct as most other items, thus is the applications can be a bit screwed. This problem of comparison between Midas Brood and Midas Invoker compounds as I admit that I should have specified the baller QE build Invoker that is comparable.
?what?
you dont get midas because it helps?
not sure i understand what youre trying to say in that sentence
or the whole paragraph for that matter
but making a midas to make up for lost aspd with quas exort isnt a reason to get midas
as stated multiple times earlier youre not a right click hero, so why are you looking for ways to improve your physical dmg output
and the gold/exp boost is helpful, but unnecessary because invokers skills and map presence alone achieves that for him
not sure if the people arguing that midas is a legitimate item on invoker are talking about pub scenarios or proper games
in pubs i think most people will agree that any item on any hero will work to an extent, but outside casual games a midas should 9/10 times not be gotten on invoker
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I believe indeed that I have seen Dendi get a Midas on Invoker at TI2, however the situation was as following -
2v2 midlane, 1 team had a lich I believe(I forgot which one)
Everyone was undereleveld and the game was quite static, in this case I think Dendi made the right call and went for the Midas, after all he wasn';t going to go out of lane anytime soon.
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Midas is very much, a snowball item. In mid lane, the only (common mid) hero that can really contest his farm (assuming exort for extra attack damage) is templar assassin. Assuming that you are going to win your lane anyways, the HOM merely extends your lead. Yes, HOM does set you back initially, but it puts you ahead in the mid game (at around 25 mins). It's like getting an upgrade when you are ahead in SC2. Yes, it will delay your inevitable attack, but it keeps you ahead in the game, later on.
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On October 06 2012 22:24 coriamon wrote:
Midas is very much, a snowball item. In mid lane, the only (common mid) hero that can really contest his farm (assuming exort for extra attack damage) is templar assassin. Assuming that you are going to win your lane anyways, the HOM merely extends your lead. Yes, HOM does set you back initially, but it puts you ahead in the mid game (at around 25 mins). It's like getting an upgrade when you are ahead in SC2. Yes, it will delay your inevitable attack, but it keeps you ahead in the game, later on.
So while the enemy mid crushes your team from 5-20 minutes you intend to... look at him funny with your midas? =P
I think people already explained in-depth of invokers role vs the intentions one has when he gets midas on someone. Yes, you sacrifice early/midgame power for a better development down the road. However, if that early/midgame power from NOT getting it gets you kills & towers you made a worse investment with the midas route. Just scroll up a little. :o
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On October 06 2012 19:47 Kipsate wrote:
I believe indeed that I have seen Dendi get a Midas on Invoker at TI2, however the situation was as following -
2v2 midlane, 1 team had a lich I believe(I forgot which one)
Everyone was undereleveld and the game was quite static, in this case I think Dendi made the right call and went for the Midas, after all he wasn';t going to go out of lane anytime soon.
Was also against a chen on the opposite team.
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EPT
