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On October 04 2012 09:27 LazyFailKid wrote:
What are you supposed to start with when you play support? 2 wards and the courier seems like total suicide. And when blocking camps with wards do you use observer wards or sentry wards or does it depend on if you can use the extra vision from observer wards? Also what camps should you block with wards?
Well like everything it is variable. However you shouldn't be the wards AND courier buyer, unless your team's a bunch of pricks or they all have hard lanes and you have a really easy one and you randomed or something like that but that's pretty rare and even still I don't really like that.
Anyway what to actually buy. fairly vanilla is 2 gg branches salve clarity/tango and the wards/courier working to wand boots more wards flying donkey and more wards including sentries.
Blocking is generally the easy pull camp the one closest to the lane if they have enchant/chen the medium/big camps are ok to stop them getting the big creeps (or reducing the chances of getting a good creep). If you think you can kill an enemy ward use a sentry otherwise obs ward.
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On October 04 2012 09:33 Dead9 wrote:
tower lasthit splits the gold between assists
alternately between the whole team if there were no assists
assist lasts for 15? seconds (i pulled that number out of nowhere but i think it's about right)
in pubs start with a set of wards and the courier, it shouldn't be a big deal especially after 6.75 kicks in
block with observer wards, they give vision of people looping behind the tower and block the pull
edit: enerally you want to block the pullable medium camp
dire top can still pull the hard camp when you have the medium warded, so watch out for that
When you say "set of observer wards" do you mean both stacks or only 1 stack?
And doesn't dire have to pull at their tower if you have the medium blocked? or can they pull the hard camp where they pull the medium camp?
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one stack
they can pull the hard camp up and to the left, radi can also pull the same hard camp to the left (or up and to the left if the lane is way far up)
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Why dont more people build hand of midas? I've only seen furion build it.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 04 2012 14:52 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why dont more people build hand of midas? I've only seen furion build it.
Takes a while to pay for itself, during which time your effectiveness is much weaker than it would have been with other items (exacerbated by the awkwardness of the stats it gives for many heroes). For heroes that will be farming passively long enough for this not to matter, they often have other more appropriate farming items that they would rather get to more quickly (e.g. BFury on AM, Radiance on Spectre, Lancer, or Syllabear).
It's appropriate for Furion because he generally doesn't want to be teamfighting during the time when the Midas is paying for itself anyway, and will just be split-pushing/farming during that period anyway, plus the hard carry farming items are generally not all that suitable for him.
On other heroes, it's still good in scenarios where you can get it early enough that your enemy can't punish you for it before it pays for itself.
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On October 04 2012 14:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 14:52 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why dont more people build hand of midas? I've only seen furion build it. Takes a while to pay for itself, during which time your effectiveness is much weaker than it would have been with other items (exacerbated by the awkwardness of the stats it gives for many heroes). For heroes that will be farming passively long enough for this not to matter, they often have other more appropriate farming items that they would rather get to more quickly (e.g. BFury on AM, Radiance on Spectre, Lancer, or Syllabear). It's appropriate for Furion because he generally doesn't want to be teamfighting during the time when the Midas is paying for itself anyway, and will just be split-pushing/farming during that period anyway, plus the hard carry farming items are generally not all that suitable for him. On other heroes, it's still good in scenarios where you can get it early enough that your enemy can't punish you for it before it pays for itself.
Just to add onto this: HoM works pretty well with mainly jungle heroes since they spend most of their time jungling anyway since HoM needs time to pay itself off; plus the extra XP multiplier from using it on a creep is really handy for junglers to either catch up or surpass mid level heroes.
Though I guess if you can get HoM super fast it'll be worthwhile but if it takes you longer than 6 minutes or so to farm it on a lane then you really shouldn't go for it.
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My naix jungle build uses midas to catch up or even get ahead on levels, since you often fall behind when starting form the jungle. It also helps him get to level 6 where he can clear a hard camp stacked a little. Its also good on him since your inbuilt sustain comes from IAS (and passive regen, but shh).
But generally, the situations you want HoM just don't occur. Naix can farm faster protected in a lane (initially, at least, and that's when you get HoM), so that's normally where he will be put in a high level game. The only time its really good is on profit, who is a good farm holder due to a) buyback being good on him, as he comes straight back to the fray b) he can be where he needs to be, so he can join any push or gank even if its across the map, or find opportunities where others can't (he can push a sidelane if he sees the enemy team on the map, ie if they smoke as soon as they are revealed he can instantly respond with whatever farm he has got, whether is is counterganking or taking a tower/forcing TPs).
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On October 04 2012 14:52 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why dont more people build hand of midas? I've only seen furion build it.
I get one on invoker every time I play invoker. The extra experience is worth every piece of gold. However, if you want to get a midas, you have to get it early for it to pay off in the mid game. Therefore, it is mostly best when you are dominating a lane, in the jungle or really need the experience. This is because, the 1900 spent on midas could have been upgraded boots, and a stat item instead. These would help you in lane, but midas will help you later than that.
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On October 04 2012 20:53 coriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 14:52 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why dont more people build hand of midas? I've only seen furion build it. I get one on invoker every time I play invoker. The extra experience is worth every piece of gold. However, if you want to get a midas, you have to get it early for it to pay off in the mid game. Therefore, it is mostly best when you are dominating a lane, in the jungle or really need the experience. This is because, the 1900 spent on midas could have been upgraded boots, and a stat item instead. These would help you in lane, but midas will help you later than that.
Personally i don't recommend it on invoker. The 1900 gold could be used into a force staff which would help you in your chasing of support heroes with your tornado emp and cold snap. Force staff also gives you alot of survivability better than what tiny experience the midas gives you. Especially for a hero like invoker where you're mega strong level 10-12 you want to have an instant impact on the game once you hit your peak midas imoh would delay you too much.
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On October 04 2012 20:53 coriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 14:52 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why dont more people build hand of midas? I've only seen furion build it. I get one on invoker every time I play invoker. The extra experience is worth every piece of gold. However, if you want to get a midas, you have to get it early for it to pay off in the mid game. Therefore, it is mostly best when you are dominating a lane, in the jungle or really need the experience. This is because, the 1900 spent on midas could have been upgraded boots, and a stat item instead. These would help you in lane, but midas will help you later than that.
unless you plan on carrying with alacrity and a mkb or something a midas is a poor item to get on invoker
too expensive to be bought just for early lvls
as stated above you could almost buy a force staff with that
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United States47024 Posts
On October 04 2012 17:21 Sephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 14:59 TheYango wrote:On October 04 2012 14:52 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why dont more people build hand of midas? I've only seen furion build it. Takes a while to pay for itself, during which time your effectiveness is much weaker than it would have been with other items (exacerbated by the awkwardness of the stats it gives for many heroes). For heroes that will be farming passively long enough for this not to matter, they often have other more appropriate farming items that they would rather get to more quickly (e.g. BFury on AM, Radiance on Spectre, Lancer, or Syllabear). It's appropriate for Furion because he generally doesn't want to be teamfighting during the time when the Midas is paying for itself anyway, and will just be split-pushing/farming during that period anyway, plus the hard carry farming items are generally not all that suitable for him. On other heroes, it's still good in scenarios where you can get it early enough that your enemy can't punish you for it before it pays for itself. Just to add onto this: HoM works pretty well with mainly jungle heroes since they spend most of their time jungling anyway since HoM needs time to pay itself off; plus the extra XP multiplier from using it on a creep is really handy for junglers to either catch up or surpass mid level heroes. Though I guess if you can get HoM super fast it'll be worthwhile but if it takes you longer than 6 minutes or so to farm it on a lane then you really shouldn't go for it.
The vast majority of jungle heroes are not passive farmers that can afford to give up their effectiveness in the period when Midas is paying for itself though.
Junglers like Enigma, Chen, Enchantress, Lycan, etc. are all heroes that are expected to make certain plays in the 5-15 minute range (and for whom the Midas being a Vlad's, Mek, or Blink Dagger instead have a huge impact on their ability to do those things).
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is it advisable to get shadow blade on ta instead of blink dagger?
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if youre pubbing shadow blade could work, although itd be worse than a shadow blade on bh, which i dont particularly think is a good build either
would help with escape, but the backstab damage doesnt synergise with any of your skills, for positioning purposes blink is superior, and the ms bonus with the invis isnt needed with your traps
backstab > meld may be some decent burst dmg but if burst damage is what youre after just get a dagon
@zarcaz
wrong thread?
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On October 05 2012 22:14 eu.exodus wrote:
is it advisable to get shadow blade on ta instead of blink dagger?
The answer will almost always be no. There are situations where you can get away with it but I wouldn't count on it.
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Anybody knows how multiple Medallions of Courage interact with each other?
For example X uses MoC on Y, then Y uses it on Z. Will Y have -12 armor or just -6?
What about when X uses it on Y and Y uses it back on X? Does that work?
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The midas concept is that it increases the gold/xp available on the map for your team for the rest of the game. Could another item do a better job of that? "What item can I buy that gets my team the most gold and xp for the rest of the game?" If you have a team that can't take map control, but who can defend towers well, midas is probably your best choice because you're going to be stuck on your side of the map for 30 minutes and you need all the xp and gold you can find while you defend and protect your carry. Additionally, invoker is the type of hero that improves in a significant way with every single level he gets up to 25. Really, invoker is a great protector/defender in 4+1 strats because of his strong lane presence, tornado/emp combo, and later on his DB/CM combo. He's not really a great hero for pushing strats, so in my mind, midas can be a good pickup for him in a lot of situations as you're planning on your team being contained or on the back foot for a lot of the game until you hit your stride, and invoker doesn't need a lot of items to hold pushes in the early midgame.
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If you can't lane because the lane composition you are up against is just too good, what should you do? Should you just give up the lane if no one will switch with you, or go try to gank people, or try to jungle? I'm not really sure what to do in this situation.
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On October 06 2012 07:48 Lafer wrote:
If you can't lane because the lane composition you are up against is just too good, what should you do? Should you just give up the lane if no one will switch with you, or go try to gank people, or try to jungle? I'm not really sure what to do in this situation.
It's best that you don't feed.
I'm trying to keep it real here, opportunity cost is what you should be looking at. Ask yourself this: if I leave the lane, what would the opponent do with it. Decide on that and capitalize on one's own decision making skills is the key to recovering a lost lane, and I'm pretty damn sure no one else but yourself can choose what to do.
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if youre an invoker you will definitely not want to be on the backfoot
he shines as a ganker. you want to control the map with him, not hope to turtle through counterganks so that it gives you a chance to pay off your midas
depends who your hero is
if youre a support you should be looking to pull, gank or carry a tp and countergank
if youre the carry you really dont have mamy options
you either have to get someone to switch lanes, gank your lane or steal your supports pulling farm
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EPT
