EPTHonestly all boots are going to be viable on this hero as support but you have to figure out what is going to work for you specifically based on how games with her go for you. All anyone else can do is say why a boot choice is good.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1041
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Honestly all boots are going to be viable on this hero as support but you have to figure out what is going to work for you specifically based on how games with her go for you. All anyone else can do is say why a boot choice is good. | ||
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:06 FHDH wrote: if you want to tank up from your boots tranqs are the better optionYou're definitely hurting yourself if you don't tread-swap but the HP from that slot, especially since you will be slot-limited with shitty items a lot (count on having to do the warding, gotta carry TP, probably should be carrying bottle in this meta, probably should have medallion) is really quite valuable. Honestly all boots are going to be viable on this hero as support but you have to figure out what is going to work for you specifically based on how games with her go for you. All anyone else can do is say why a boot choice is good. they're cheaper they synergize with medallion the movespeed can secure kills you should also be taking more physical damage than magic as venge if you're playing the hero properly (your ally gets stunned and enemy cores run in to right click, you swap him out, they now have fewer nukes for you to tank) | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Someone can answer that. But HP and AC do synergize. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
Only against physical damage though, obviously. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:33 Unleashing wrote: 1 armor is essentially just 6% EHP regardless of how much armor you have. Only against physical damage though, obviously. So does that mean 4 AC = 26% (1.06^4 - 1) EHP? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:36 Sn0_Man wrote: AC is not the abbreviation for armor ...is there actually an abbreviation for armor specific to Dota? If not why not use it? I asked about terminology specificity and clarity yesterday. These things confound me. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:35 FHDH wrote: So does that mean 4 AC = 26% (1.06^4 - 1) EHP? 4 armor is just 24% EHP If you have 1000 hp then 4 armor gives you 240 EHP regardless of how much armor you already have. You already have 20 armor? well the 4 extra armor will STILL give you 240 EHP. iirc there are however different numbers for negative armor, unless that's still messed up in dota2? I haven't looked into it for a while. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
This seems awfully simplistic. Theoretically at higher mitigation levels HP becomes increasingly valuable. However, so does a given percentage of mitigation (mitigating an additive 5% of damage when you are at 0% mitigation is far less valuable than mitigating an additive 5% when you are at 75% mitigation).*** But I've looked at the armor mitigation curve for Dota and I definitely do not understand it, so I could see how they might have adjusted the mitigation curve to work out this way. [e] It does also mean that there is no "synergy" with stacking armor. An additional point of armor at any level is as valuable as a point at any other level. *** This is why many players were confused in WoW about the "diminishing returns" of AC. They did not diminish, they were merely tuned to have roughly constant returns at varying armor levels. Giving a constant rate of additive mitigation across the armor spectrum would have made armor exponentially more valuable as you went up the scale. Evasion, however, was a different story. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Especially because you have nothing that eHP anchors off of. Is your eHp your 100% hp? 80% because you tanked some creeps? Is it your eHP before or after mek & wand? Is it your eHp now or in 5 minutes when you've gained 2-3 levels? I feel like people try to port it over from WoW where you enter fights at 100% hp with constant healing or even Lol with more stat/math based items and the rune pages, but DotA is neither of those games. There is synergy in stacking armor in the sense that negative armor works differently than positive armor and you take a lot more eHP damage for being -5 armor than going from 10 armor -> 5 armor. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Basically only idiots in either game think EHP calculations are the end-all and be-all of itemization decisions. it's still something you need to understand when you are making decisions about items that involve survivability. This is true in both games. Dota2 is not WoW, but don't underestimate WoW-style theorycrafting when done by people with real experience. It's actually quite robust. | ||
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 20 2015 07:38 FHDH wrote: Enh not really. I'd get into why but it's such a huge subject. Basically only idiots in either game think EHP calculations are the end-all and be-all of itemization decisions. it's still something you need to understand when you are making decisions about items that involve survivability. This is true in both games. Dota2 is not WoW, but don't underestimate WoW-style theorycrafting when done by people with real experience. It's actually quite robust. Oh I don't! It's quite impressive the numbers crunched for WoW. I just think other than the broader strokes you're going to be picking items based on other factors that are harder to analyze or have little to do with eHP, DPS, or other calculated stats. Like tranquil's movespeed benefits and 400g cheaper price tag vs Tread's mana opportunities and offensive capabilities (if you don't just die when you swap). Even if you can math out if the right click power & mana of treads is better than the movespeed and regen of tranquils it would be dependent on your opponents and lineup so heavily that the calculation would be too unwieldy to be practical at all. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On February 20 2015 07:01 FHDH wrote: OK, that means that the point at which 4 armor gives more EHP versus physical damage only than 8 STR is ~633 HP. This seems awfully simplistic. Theoretically at higher mitigation levels HP becomes increasingly valuable. However, so does a given percentage of mitigation (mitigating an additive 5% of damage when you are at 0% mitigation is far less valuable than mitigating an additive 5% when you are at 75% mitigation).*** But I've looked at the armor mitigation curve for Dota and I definitely do not understand it, so I could see how they might have adjusted the mitigation curve to work out this way. [e] It does also mean that there is no "synergy" with stacking armor. An additional point of armor at any level is as valuable as a point at any other level. *** This is why many players were confused in WoW about the "diminishing returns" of AC. They did not diminish, they were merely tuned to have roughly constant returns at varying armor levels. Giving a constant rate of additive mitigation across the armor spectrum would have made armor exponentially more valuable as you went up the scale. Evasion, however, was a different story. It isn't that simple because the 8str gives you effective hitpoints from all your armor (Your calculation is the breakpoint if you have zero armor and add 8 str or 4 armor). 8 str also makes each point of armor worth an additional 9ehp (so if I have 10 armor and I buy str treads then I'm gaining the 152 hitpoints from str plus 90 ehp from my armor versus physical damage). Armor only scales linearly if you hold the hitpoints constant which doesn't actually happen in a real game because every hero has STR growth and levels up. Vengeful spirit has almost 4 base armor at level 1 so you're going to have some armor and if you're also buying medallion then you're probably armor heavy and buying hitpoints will be more efficient. This doesn't even account for the fact that early game spells are a lot more of a worry which armor does nothing against. On February 20 2015 09:48 FHDH wrote: Yeah for sure. Just pointing out that this is in response to a claim that tranquils AC "synergizes" with medallion in survivability terms. It's definitely useful to know but if you're picking Dota items just based on DPS/EHP you're definitely doing it wrong, as you say. You might even say that stacking armor has negative synergy because the more of it you have the more valuable hitpoints becomes and vice versa. Plus you can buy evasion which gives multiplicative gains on those stats. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
I'm also doing it based on a AC -> EHP conversion that seems oversimplified but without spending some time examining it myself I have to go with it. So HP becomes more valuable as your AC gets higher - as you'd expect - not only in raw terms but relative to additional AC. I'm going to scribble some notes and see if I can come up with some useful math for this. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
x = y(1 +.06b) x = z(.06a) Where: x is additional EHP, y is additional HP, z is additional AC, a is current HP, and b is current AC. The bad news is this is a lot of variables and there's no clear way to show what this relationship looks like without fixing at least two of them. But if our assumptions are correct, it's useful if you have a clear scenario you want to examine. Example scenario: + Show Spoiler + Level 16 Venge is finally upgrading from Boots of Speed (I chose 16 because I can easily pull the stats). Her only items are a medallion, a bottle, and boots of speed. HP: 1271 AC: 16.4 Treads would yield 8*19(1+.06*16.94) EHP -- 306.49 Tranqs would yield 4*.06*1271 -- 305.04 If she had no medallion: HP: 1271 AC: 9.4 Treads would yield 8*19(1+.06*9.94) EHP -- ~242.65 Tranqs would yield 4*.06*1271 -- 305.04 Assuming I didn't fuck anything up this clearly shows that medallion increases the value of raw hitpoints. The physical damage EHP gain from each boot upgrade is fairly similar. Of course, as pointed out, in multiple ways, the ONLY thing this will tell you is how much EHP you gain vs. physical damage with no healing involved and without considering the continuing scaling of your hero. It also doesn't take into account utility. What's important though is we have established that Tranquil boots and Medallion do not, in fact, synergize in terms of physical EHP. And that's what really, really matters. Simple questions, simple answers. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Stacking a single defensive stat is rarely going to be more effective than mixed defensive stats, because defensive stats are not self-synergistic, but scale multiplicatively with EACH OTHER. The same goes for offensive stats (if you're attack speed-heavy, damage is more effective, while if you're damage-heavy, attack speed is more effective). Common-sense, but at the same time people forget it often, so it's good to verify it for yourself/others once in a while. I'm pretty sure I've made some overly long-winded post about this at some point in the past, but it's probably impossible to find now. The bad news is this is a lot of variables and there's no clear way to show what this relationship looks like without fixing at least two of them. But if our assumptions are correct, it's useful if you have a clear scenario you want to examine. Well, you could make a 3d plot with x,y being armor and HP, and z being EHP, and the resulting surface would show the rate of greatest increase in the direction following some line hp = constant * armor--illustrating that your EHP is maximized through some sensible balance between HP and armor, rather than stacking one or the other. Of course, that's also wholly unnecessary for illustrating the point you're trying to here. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Well, you could make a 3d plot with x,y being armor and HP, and z being EHP, and the resulting surface would show the rate of greatest increase in the direction following some line hp = constant * armor--illustrating that your EHP is maximized through some sensible balance between HP and armor, rather than stacking one or the other. Yes, only problem being of course the radical difference between HP and AC point-for-point (thus, I'm sure, your C*AC stipulation). Still...could be a somewhat useful graph. Maybe set C according to some measure of gold-cost-per-point at some given tier. But yeah the basic concept that mixing defensive stats is ideal is intuitive to anyone who has ever seriously played a tank but it does vary quite a bit depending on the system. [e] This is what the graph would look like. x is armor, y is HP, z is EHP. Max AC is 50, max HP is 6k. Max EHP is 24,000. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZHzlnbM.png) | ||
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