EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1042
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On February 20 2015 14:21 l3loodraven wrote: dear gods what is even going on in here, i'm far too feeble-minded to understand wtf you two are doing, someone just tell me if i'm right about venge tranqs or not Yes but not about the relative PEHP. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 20 2015 13:31 FHDH wrote: Yes, only problem being of course the radical difference between HP and AC point-for-point (thus, I'm sure, your C*AC stipulation). Still...could be a somewhat useful graph. Maybe set C according to some measure of gold-cost-per-point at some given tier. It's not a huge deal because the exact value of that constant is of limited usefulness anyway. The only thing that really serves to be useful is the general idea that if your defensive stats are HP-skewed you want armor, if they're armor-skewed, you want HP. The exact point where you want one more than the other is heavily game-dependent based on how fights play out and the impact of other damage sources. The minutiae also will rarely make or break an item choice, because insofar as you decide that you need "an armor item", the other functions of the item (Meka's active, AC and Vlads' respective auras, etc.) and the cost of the item relative to your income tend to make a bigger difference from that point forward. Well the other funny thing is that Tranqs actually makes Urn more appealing, rather than Medallion, since Urn is an HP item. Treads actually complements Medallion better given the combination of HP+AS complementing Armor+Armor reduction. Again though, these minor concerns will usually not outweigh the functional benefits of the items in question. The main draw of Tranquils is the fact that it's economical in a game where you can't spare the extra 400-500 gold that other Boots cost, and the main draw of Urn and Medallion are their respective actives. | ||
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 20 2015 14:34 l3loodraven wrote: i would need to see a lot more data to accept Yango's premise that attempting to achieve "balanced" defensive buffs is mathematically the most effective thing to do (which may or may not be what he is asserting, like I said I'm pretty dumb and barely followed all of that). That's essentially what FHDH was trying to use a bunch of math to show. But that's not really necessary--in fact, a middle school algebra problem that everyone's probably done is pretty illustrative of why this is the case. If you have some limited length of fence and are trying to fence in the largest area possible, the way to maximize the area you want to fence in is to fence in a square--with the length and width being equal. Making a super long and narrow or super wide and thin fence will result in less enclosed area than a square. Replace length with HP, width with armor, and EHP with area, and you're solving the exact same problem. There's a fudge factor based on the fact that HP and armor have different gold values per point and you still have nonzero EHP with 0 armor but some HP, but that doesn't change the fact that the optimum is achieved with a balanced ratio between the two. | ||
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
EDIT I don't mean "what is the point of building armor item(s)", thats evident by the formula, I'm asking "if other things do as good a job or better than armor against physical damage, why is armor even in the game?" | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 20 2015 14:46 l3loodraven wrote: so if stacking armor, even against purely physical damage, is NOT more effective than a mixture armor/hp/evasion, then what is the point of armor at all? makes armor sound kind of underpowered, The value comes from the fact that any defensive stat gains value from having the other stats. Early game, armor actually IS less effective than HP, partly because magic damage doesn't interact with armor, and partly because you start with "100%" armor (i.e. with 0 armor, you have EHP = HP, but with 0 HP, you have EHP = 0). However, this usually doesn't stay the case for most of the game. Many heroes will gain HP much more aggressively than they gain armor (especially true of Strength heroes, and Strength CARRIES in particular), and will reach a point where they need to buy armor to effectively increase their defensive strength efficiently. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 20 2015 14:53 Excalibur_Z wrote: The whole HP/armor/EHP thing is functionally immaterial because, as Yango mentioned, you need to focus more on what the other team can throw at you. Armor isn't terribly important against a SF/Skywrath/Lion/Silencer/Batrider team for example, but it sure is against a Venge/PA/TA/Axe/Troll team. Flat HP regen also favors armor over HP pool obviously. Many supports actually rarely reach the point where armor is actually more effective than HP anyway (since they're relatively underleveled and underfarmed), so actually EHP balance on items actually is pretty much a nonfactor when choosing items for a lot of supports. Like I said, it has virtually no impact on the decision between Tranquil/Treads and Medallion/Urn. By the time you have enough HP for armor to be good, the enemy carry usually hits hard enough that Ghost/Force do a better job of keeping you alive than buying a Platemail. | ||
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On February 20 2015 14:46 l3loodraven wrote: so if stacking armor, even against purely physical damage, is NOT more effective than a mixture of armor/hp/evasion, then what is the point of armor at all? makes armor sound kind of underpowered. EDIT I don't mean "what is the point of building armor item(s)", thats evident by the formula, I'm asking "if other things do as good a job or better than armor against physical damage, why is armor even in the game?" The point is that armor makes HP more valuable and HP makes armor more valuable. I mean think of it this way: you understand that armor takes your existing HP and makes it more valuable, right? It naturally follows that as you gain more armor, HP becomes more and more valuable. The converse is also true: as you gain more HP, armor becomes more valuable. It does not naturally follow that mixing stats is ideal - an increase in the value of something does not automatically make it relatively more desirable than something else - but in most balanced RPG systems you can expect there to be points at which the benefit of more of one thing to be less than the opportunity cost of not getting more of something else. When it comes to survivability this typically comes in the form of raw hitpoints, armor, evasion, and resistance - disregarding more complex mechanics in the form of procs, clickies, etc. Think of it this way: at every bi-monthly review period you have the option of choosing to add 5% to a multiplier of your current wage or taking a raise of $100/mo. This is your only means of increasing your wage. You start out making $1000/mo and your multiplier is 100%. At your first review period if you take the 5% you will only be gaining $50/mo. But once you have taken the $100 raise ten times, your base wage is $2000, and the percentage raise is suddenly equal in value (5% of $2000 is $100). Of course, once you have taken the percentage raise twice, suddenly that $100 raise is actually an effective $110. 5% of $2000 is still only worth $100 at this point. So you want to start raising your base wage again. And that's basically how it works. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
Guy A has 1000hp and 0% damage reduction. He can choose between getting 250hp or 20% damage reduction. The hp choice gives him 1250hp (and EHP) and the damage reduction gives him 1000/0.8 = 1250 EHP. Meaning they are equal (against physical damage). Guy B has 2000hp and 0% damage reduction and get the same choice. He either gets 2250 hp/ehp or 2000/0.8 = 2500 ehp. So he gains more from damage reduction. Guy C has 500hp. He either gets 750hp/ehp or 500/0.8 = 625 ehp. The flat hp wins. So when you already have a lot of one thing, it becomes worth less. B has most hp so he gets less from more hp and more from another stat. C has very little hp and thus gets much more from a flat hp increase. You could make the same calculations with evasion too, as well as with magic resistance and hp vs magic damage. When you have much of one stat you want another. A good mix of stats generally works best. The same reasoning goes for damage dealing too btw. Disregarding other reasons not concerning DPS, theres a reason Agh Tiny builds AC and yasha/manta (hint: he has pretty good damage already) while you'll hardly ever see them on Clinkz who happens to have this attack speed increase skill and gets much more from raw damage items. When you have one stat for granted, you build items for the other to get a good mix. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On February 20 2015 14:41 TheYango wrote: If you have some limited length of fence and are trying to fence in the largest area possible, the way to maximize the area you want to fence in is to fence in a square--with the length and width being equal. Making a super long and narrow or super wide and thin fence will result in less enclosed area than a square. Wouldn't you want to make your fence in a circle in that case?  | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I've been harassing enemy heroes a lot in lane and mostly going for denies while I let my lane partner farm so I'm poor and end up taking a lot of hits. Tranquils seem to suit me better for that reason so I've been building them last few games and it's working out. Medallion is really good for a quick Rosh (he dies so fast with it/my other armor abilities). But for team fights around lvl 6 ish would you recommend Urn or Medallion? Urn is good for me HP wise, Medallion helps my team. I've just been getting Medallion after boots and trying to be careful about getting hit, that's all. Also I know Urn helps my team but not until it has charges on it (so not for the first team fight). Seems like for VS functionality is all in abilities, really. Sure I can get a little extra HP but in team fights I'm hardly ever standing and right clicking and Swapping to save an ally is usually a suicide mission anyway. So seems like I'm contributing a lot more by using Medallion to weaken enemies then just swapping out my hurt carries. Input? I'm really trying to nail down VS as one of my core heroes. TY! | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On February 21 2015 00:12 DinoMight wrote: Haha, look at what I started with my silly question. I've been harassing enemy heroes a lot in lane and mostly going for denies while I let my lane partner farm so I'm poor and end up taking a lot of hits. Tranquils seem to suit me better for that reason so I've been building them last few games and it's working out. Medallion is really good for a quick Rosh (he dies so fast with it/my other armor abilities). But for team fights around lvl 6 ish would you recommend Urn or Medallion? Urn is good for me HP wise, Medallion helps my team. I've just been getting Medallion after boots and trying to be careful about getting hit, that's all. Also I know Urn helps my team but not until it has charges on it (so not for the first team fight). Seems like for VS functionality is all in abilities, really. Sure I can get a little extra HP but in team fights I'm hardly ever standing and right clicking and Swapping to save an ally is usually a suicide mission anyway. So seems like I'm contributing a lot more by using Medallion to weaken enemies then just swapping out my hurt carries. Input? I'm really trying to nail down VS as one of my core heroes. TY! urn is higher than medallion in terms of 'items that a team needs' | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On February 21 2015 00:35 ahswtini wrote: urn is higher than medallion in terms of 'items that a team needs' Depends on roshan I would say | ||
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