• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:19
CEST 17:19
KST 00:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20258Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced24BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 776 users

Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1042

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1254 Next
l3loodraven
Profile Joined July 2013
2753 Posts
February 20 2015 05:21 GMT
#20821
dear gods what is even going on in here, i'm far too feeble-minded to understand wtf you two are doing, someone just tell me if i'm right about venge tranqs or not
"fear.dankness cuts deeper than swords"
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
February 20 2015 05:23 GMT
#20822
On February 20 2015 14:21 l3loodraven wrote:
dear gods what is even going on in here, i'm far too feeble-minded to understand wtf you two are doing, someone just tell me if i'm right about venge tranqs or not

Yes but not about the relative PEHP.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 05:36:19
February 20 2015 05:31 GMT
#20823
On February 20 2015 13:31 FHDH wrote:
Yes, only problem being of course the radical difference between HP and AC point-for-point (thus, I'm sure, your C*AC stipulation). Still...could be a somewhat useful graph. Maybe set C according to some measure of gold-cost-per-point at some given tier.

It's not a huge deal because the exact value of that constant is of limited usefulness anyway. The only thing that really serves to be useful is the general idea that if your defensive stats are HP-skewed you want armor, if they're armor-skewed, you want HP. The exact point where you want one more than the other is heavily game-dependent based on how fights play out and the impact of other damage sources.

The minutiae also will rarely make or break an item choice, because insofar as you decide that you need "an armor item", the other functions of the item (Meka's active, AC and Vlads' respective auras, etc.) and the cost of the item relative to your income tend to make a bigger difference from that point forward.

On February 20 2015 14:23 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2015 14:21 l3loodraven wrote:
dear gods what is even going on in here, i'm far too feeble-minded to understand wtf you two are doing, someone just tell me if i'm right about venge tranqs or not

Yes but not about the relative PEHP.

Well the other funny thing is that Tranqs actually makes Urn more appealing, rather than Medallion, since Urn is an HP item.

Treads actually complements Medallion better given the combination of HP+AS complementing Armor+Armor reduction.

Again though, these minor concerns will usually not outweigh the functional benefits of the items in question. The main draw of Tranquils is the fact that it's economical in a game where you can't spare the extra 400-500 gold that other Boots cost, and the main draw of Urn and Medallion are their respective actives.
Moderator
l3loodraven
Profile Joined July 2013
2753 Posts
February 20 2015 05:34 GMT
#20824
i would need to see a lot more data to accept Yango's premise that attempting to achieve "balanced" defensive buffs is mathematically the most effective thing to do (which may or may not be what he is asserting, like I said I'm pretty dumb and barely followed all of that).
"fear.dankness cuts deeper than swords"
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
February 20 2015 05:34 GMT
#20825
just try to get 20 last hits then you can do whatever XD
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 05:46:32
February 20 2015 05:41 GMT
#20826
On February 20 2015 14:34 l3loodraven wrote:
i would need to see a lot more data to accept Yango's premise that attempting to achieve "balanced" defensive buffs is mathematically the most effective thing to do (which may or may not be what he is asserting, like I said I'm pretty dumb and barely followed all of that).

That's essentially what FHDH was trying to use a bunch of math to show. But that's not really necessary--in fact, a middle school algebra problem that everyone's probably done is pretty illustrative of why this is the case.

If you have some limited length of fence and are trying to fence in the largest area possible, the way to maximize the area you want to fence in is to fence in a square--with the length and width being equal. Making a super long and narrow or super wide and thin fence will result in less enclosed area than a square.

Replace length with HP, width with armor, and EHP with area, and you're solving the exact same problem. There's a fudge factor based on the fact that HP and armor have different gold values per point and you still have nonzero EHP with 0 armor but some HP, but that doesn't change the fact that the optimum is achieved with a balanced ratio between the two.
Moderator
l3loodraven
Profile Joined July 2013
2753 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 05:52:43
February 20 2015 05:46 GMT
#20827
so if stacking armor, even against purely physical damage, is NOT more effective than a mixture of armor/hp/evasion, then what is the point of armor at all? makes armor sound kind of underpowered.

EDIT I don't mean "what is the point of building armor item(s)", thats evident by the formula, I'm asking "if other things do as good a job or better than armor against physical damage, why is armor even in the game?"
"fear.dankness cuts deeper than swords"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 05:54:48
February 20 2015 05:51 GMT
#20828
On February 20 2015 14:46 l3loodraven wrote:
so if stacking armor, even against purely physical damage, is NOT more effective than a mixture armor/hp/evasion, then what is the point of armor at all? makes armor sound kind of underpowered,

The value comes from the fact that any defensive stat gains value from having the other stats.

Early game, armor actually IS less effective than HP, partly because magic damage doesn't interact with armor, and partly because you start with "100%" armor (i.e. with 0 armor, you have EHP = HP, but with 0 HP, you have EHP = 0).

However, this usually doesn't stay the case for most of the game. Many heroes will gain HP much more aggressively than they gain armor (especially true of Strength heroes, and Strength CARRIES in particular), and will reach a point where they need to buy armor to effectively increase their defensive strength efficiently.
Moderator
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
February 20 2015 05:53 GMT
#20829
The whole HP/armor/EHP thing is functionally immaterial because, as Yango mentioned, you need to focus more on what the other team can throw at you. Armor isn't terribly important against a SF/Skywrath/Lion/Silencer/Batrider team for example, but it sure is against a Venge/PA/TA/Axe/Troll team. Flat HP regen also favors armor over HP pool obviously.
Moderator
l3loodraven
Profile Joined July 2013
2753 Posts
February 20 2015 05:54 GMT
#20830
Okay, I did not understand until just now that armor's effectiveness actually increases with hp. Wow what a fundamental concept to be so oblivious of, I feel very very dumb now.

"fear.dankness cuts deeper than swords"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 05:57:38
February 20 2015 05:56 GMT
#20831
On February 20 2015 14:53 Excalibur_Z wrote:
The whole HP/armor/EHP thing is functionally immaterial because, as Yango mentioned, you need to focus more on what the other team can throw at you. Armor isn't terribly important against a SF/Skywrath/Lion/Silencer/Batrider team for example, but it sure is against a Venge/PA/TA/Axe/Troll team. Flat HP regen also favors armor over HP pool obviously.

Many supports actually rarely reach the point where armor is actually more effective than HP anyway (since they're relatively underleveled and underfarmed), so actually EHP balance on items actually is pretty much a nonfactor when choosing items for a lot of supports. Like I said, it has virtually no impact on the decision between Tranquil/Treads and Medallion/Urn. By the time you have enough HP for armor to be good, the enemy carry usually hits hard enough that Ghost/Force do a better job of keeping you alive than buying a Platemail.
Moderator
l3loodraven
Profile Joined July 2013
2753 Posts
February 20 2015 05:58 GMT
#20832
Ok well if the EHP thing doesn't matter then I guess I'm glad to be right for the wrong reasons, in true doto fashion.
"fear.dankness cuts deeper than swords"
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 06:21:21
February 20 2015 06:20 GMT
#20833
On February 20 2015 14:46 l3loodraven wrote:
so if stacking armor, even against purely physical damage, is NOT more effective than a mixture of armor/hp/evasion, then what is the point of armor at all? makes armor sound kind of underpowered.

EDIT I don't mean "what is the point of building armor item(s)", thats evident by the formula, I'm asking "if other things do as good a job or better than armor against physical damage, why is armor even in the game?"

The point is that armor makes HP more valuable and HP makes armor more valuable.

I mean think of it this way: you understand that armor takes your existing HP and makes it more valuable, right? It naturally follows that as you gain more armor, HP becomes more and more valuable. The converse is also true: as you gain more HP, armor becomes more valuable. It does not naturally follow that mixing stats is ideal - an increase in the value of something does not automatically make it relatively more desirable than something else - but in most balanced RPG systems you can expect there to be points at which the benefit of more of one thing to be less than the opportunity cost of not getting more of something else.

When it comes to survivability this typically comes in the form of raw hitpoints, armor, evasion, and resistance - disregarding more complex mechanics in the form of procs, clickies, etc.

Think of it this way: at every bi-monthly review period you have the option of choosing to add 5% to a multiplier of your current wage or taking a raise of $100/mo. This is your only means of increasing your wage. You start out making $1000/mo and your multiplier is 100%. At your first review period if you take the 5% you will only be gaining $50/mo. But once you have taken the $100 raise ten times, your base wage is $2000, and the percentage raise is suddenly equal in value (5% of $2000 is $100). Of course, once you have taken the percentage raise twice, suddenly that $100 raise is actually an effective $110. 5% of $2000 is still only worth $100 at this point. So you want to start raising your base wage again.

And that's basically how it works.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
February 20 2015 10:13 GMT
#20834
and don't forget you have limited slots too, so it's even more important to be efficient in your choice of items
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 12:39:09
February 20 2015 12:23 GMT
#20835
Its quite easily understood with a simple example:
Guy A has 1000hp and 0% damage reduction. He can choose between getting 250hp or 20% damage reduction. The hp choice gives him 1250hp (and EHP) and the damage reduction gives him 1000/0.8 = 1250 EHP. Meaning they are equal (against physical damage).

Guy B has 2000hp and 0% damage reduction and get the same choice. He either gets 2250 hp/ehp or 2000/0.8 = 2500 ehp. So he gains more from damage reduction.

Guy C has 500hp. He either gets 750hp/ehp or 500/0.8 = 625 ehp. The flat hp wins.

So when you already have a lot of one thing, it becomes worth less. B has most hp so he gets less from more hp and more from another stat. C has very little hp and thus gets much more from a flat hp increase.

You could make the same calculations with evasion too, as well as with magic resistance and hp vs magic damage. When you have much of one stat you want another. A good mix of stats generally works best.

The same reasoning goes for damage dealing too btw. Disregarding other reasons not concerning DPS, theres a reason Agh Tiny builds AC and yasha/manta (hint: he has pretty good damage already) while you'll hardly ever see them on Clinkz who happens to have this attack speed increase skill and gets much more from raw damage items. When you have one stat for granted, you build items for the other to get a good mix.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 20 2015 13:37 GMT
#20836
The only real mathemetically difficult edge case is vanguard. In true dota fashion it's an exception to the rules about EHP/armor. (PMS/stout shield to lesser degrees too)
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
February 20 2015 15:04 GMT
#20837
On February 20 2015 14:41 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2015 14:34 l3loodraven wrote:
i would need to see a lot more data to accept Yango's premise that attempting to achieve "balanced" defensive buffs is mathematically the most effective thing to do (which may or may not be what he is asserting, like I said I'm pretty dumb and barely followed all of that).

If you have some limited length of fence and are trying to fence in the largest area possible, the way to maximize the area you want to fence in is to fence in a square--with the length and width being equal. Making a super long and narrow or super wide and thin fence will result in less enclosed area than a square.


Wouldn't you want to make your fence in a circle in that case?
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-20 15:28:48
February 20 2015 15:12 GMT
#20838
Haha, look at what I started with my silly question.

I've been harassing enemy heroes a lot in lane and mostly going for denies while I let my lane partner farm so I'm poor and end up taking a lot of hits. Tranquils seem to suit me better for that reason so I've been building them last few games and it's working out.

Medallion is really good for a quick Rosh (he dies so fast with it/my other armor abilities). But for team fights around lvl 6 ish would you recommend Urn or Medallion? Urn is good for me HP wise, Medallion helps my team. I've just been getting Medallion after boots and trying to be careful about getting hit, that's all. Also I know Urn helps my team but not until it has charges on it (so not for the first team fight).


Seems like for VS functionality is all in abilities, really. Sure I can get a little extra HP but in team fights I'm hardly ever standing and right clicking and Swapping to save an ally is usually a suicide mission anyway.

So seems like I'm contributing a lot more by using Medallion to weaken enemies then just swapping out my hurt carries.

Input? I'm really trying to nail down VS as one of my core heroes. TY!
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
February 20 2015 15:35 GMT
#20839
On February 21 2015 00:12 DinoMight wrote:
Haha, look at what I started with my silly question.

I've been harassing enemy heroes a lot in lane and mostly going for denies while I let my lane partner farm so I'm poor and end up taking a lot of hits. Tranquils seem to suit me better for that reason so I've been building them last few games and it's working out.

Medallion is really good for a quick Rosh (he dies so fast with it/my other armor abilities). But for team fights around lvl 6 ish would you recommend Urn or Medallion? Urn is good for me HP wise, Medallion helps my team. I've just been getting Medallion after boots and trying to be careful about getting hit, that's all. Also I know Urn helps my team but not until it has charges on it (so not for the first team fight).


Seems like for VS functionality is all in abilities, really. Sure I can get a little extra HP but in team fights I'm hardly ever standing and right clicking and Swapping to save an ally is usually a suicide mission anyway.

So seems like I'm contributing a lot more by using Medallion to weaken enemies then just swapping out my hurt carries.

Input? I'm really trying to nail down VS as one of my core heroes. TY!

urn is higher than medallion in terms of 'items that a team needs'
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 20 2015 15:48 GMT
#20840
On February 21 2015 00:35 ahswtini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2015 00:12 DinoMight wrote:
Haha, look at what I started with my silly question.

I've been harassing enemy heroes a lot in lane and mostly going for denies while I let my lane partner farm so I'm poor and end up taking a lot of hits. Tranquils seem to suit me better for that reason so I've been building them last few games and it's working out.

Medallion is really good for a quick Rosh (he dies so fast with it/my other armor abilities). But for team fights around lvl 6 ish would you recommend Urn or Medallion? Urn is good for me HP wise, Medallion helps my team. I've just been getting Medallion after boots and trying to be careful about getting hit, that's all. Also I know Urn helps my team but not until it has charges on it (so not for the first team fight).


Seems like for VS functionality is all in abilities, really. Sure I can get a little extra HP but in team fights I'm hardly ever standing and right clicking and Swapping to save an ally is usually a suicide mission anyway.

So seems like I'm contributing a lot more by using Medallion to weaken enemies then just swapping out my hurt carries.

Input? I'm really trying to nail down VS as one of my core heroes. TY!

urn is higher than medallion in terms of 'items that a team needs'

Depends on roshan I would say
Prev 1 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1254 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14:00
Bracket Day 2 - Final
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Lambo vs GeraldLIVE!
Clem vs SKillous
Reynor vs TBD
RotterdaM2104
ComeBackTV 1722
IndyStarCraft 620
WardiTV378
CranKy Ducklings207
Rex165
3DClanTV 104
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2104
IndyStarCraft 620
Rex 165
BRAT_OK 72
MindelVK 31
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 45915
Barracks 1783
EffOrt 1693
Larva 1056
Stork 633
BeSt 608
firebathero 529
Nal_rA 475
Soulkey 226
Hyun 140
[ Show more ]
Rush 135
Dewaltoss 122
Sharp 82
sorry 74
Movie 53
Sea.KH 52
Shinee 52
sSak 46
Shine 37
Free 37
zelot 27
yabsab 17
Terrorterran 10
IntoTheRainbow 7
Dota 2
Gorgc5668
qojqva3837
XcaliburYe431
420jenkins316
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m2605
oskar155
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor592
Other Games
B2W.Neo2084
Beastyqt1660
Hui .345
DeMusliM270
Fuzer 142
KnowMe101
QueenE68
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV40
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 42
• poizon28 15
• Legendk 6
• Dystopia_ 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4060
• WagamamaTV731
League of Legends
• Nemesis3315
• Jankos1359
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2h 41m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
19h 41m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 18h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.