On July 23 2014 17:59 AwfuL_ wrote: Keep in mind that the extra DPS and armor from Yasha can be enough for sustain as well, especially when you have taken a lot of points in stats instead of manabreak and shield. You just can't deal with big stacks or the golum ancients very well.
If you can get up to manta without buying vlads for sustain then there usually is no point in still getting vlads afterwards unless you wanna solo Rosh or there is a big ancient stack or something.
Yasha gives you MS to farm faster as well. But I've seen pros pick up the ultimate orb from side shop first too.
it seems like the playstyle for this hero is set in stone for years and years now. I have a question about him:
- he has a couple very good mid matchups, is a strong ganker if he gets level advantage and is very good at contending runes.
- he can manfight alot of heroes during the midgame.
- his manabreak has the biggest impact early-midgame when caster based heroes dont have a big manapool
- he doesn't have a great steroid for late game like range/crit/as nor has he disables of his own besides manabreak which loses effectivness later on.
So my question is: Is there a powerful way to play a midgame magina who pressures the map more with ganks and splitpushing?
I tried it a few times and had my success with it. I didn't have as big items as I would farming (probably) but my team got objectives and mapcontrol so we could close the games out earlyer. Instead of going bfury I leave the ring and upgrade it later to a linkens (vanguard works too I guess) but rush yasha basher manta. It's pretty nasty what you can do with him if you take some smart aggressive risks. Keep in mind that afk farming is risky as well, just not for you personally but for the team.
On August 02 2014 23:13 clickrush wrote: it seems like the playstyle for this hero is set in stone for years and years now. I have a question about him:
- he has a couple very good mid matchups,
for example? Don't say Pudge. I think apart from a few weak melee heroes and Invoker there's not a single traditional mid that he can win 1v1 against.
On August 02 2014 23:13 clickrush wrote: it seems like the playstyle for this hero is set in stone for years and years now. I have a question about him:
- he has a couple very good mid matchups, is a strong ganker if he gets level advantage and is very good at contending runes.
- he can manfight alot of heroes during the midgame.
- his manabreak has the biggest impact early-midgame when caster based heroes dont have a big manapool
- he doesn't have a great steroid for late game like range/crit/as nor has he disables of his own besides manabreak which loses effectivness later on.
So my question is: Is there a powerful way to play a midgame magina who pressures the map more with ganks and splitpushing?
I tried it a few times and had my success with it. I didn't have as big items as I would farming (probably) but my team got objectives and mapcontrol so we could close the games out earlyer. Instead of going bfury I leave the ring and upgrade it later to a linkens (vanguard works too I guess) but rush yasha basher manta. It's pretty nasty what you can do with him if you take some smart aggressive risks. Keep in mind that afk farming is risky as well, just not for you personally but for the team.
AM scales with his low BAT, mobility, utility in Mana Break and potential damage with Mana Void. Imo he is fine as he is and won't evolve much in terms of gameplay style. In your situation, for example, I think a mid PA would work better if you want to have something that really scales at mid.
Unless they somehow figure a way to play AM without being too farm-dependent, and I don't think thats going to happen.
On August 02 2014 23:13 clickrush wrote: it seems like the playstyle for this hero is set in stone for years and years now. I have a question about him:
- he has a couple very good mid matchups, is a strong ganker if he gets level advantage and is very good at contending runes.
- he can manfight alot of heroes during the midgame.
- his manabreak has the biggest impact early-midgame when caster based heroes dont have a big manapool
- he doesn't have a great steroid for late game like range/crit/as nor has he disables of his own besides manabreak which loses effectivness later on.
So my question is: Is there a powerful way to play a midgame magina who pressures the map more with ganks and splitpushing?
I tried it a few times and had my success with it. I didn't have as big items as I would farming (probably) but my team got objectives and mapcontrol so we could close the games out earlyer. Instead of going bfury I leave the ring and upgrade it later to a linkens (vanguard works too I guess) but rush yasha basher manta. It's pretty nasty what you can do with him if you take some smart aggressive risks. Keep in mind that afk farming is risky as well, just not for you personally but for the team.
-I can't even think of any favorable match ups for AM vs popular mid heroes. If you want a blink hero for rune control and ganks, QoP is a much better pick. AM is a terrible ganker, He has no CC, no slow, no burst. That doesn't sound like a ganker to me at all.
-AM is paper thin early on, he's not going to man fight anybody without significant lv advantage, and even if he did AM is pretty easy to kite. There's a reason why most AM's won't really start committing to team fights before Heart (or at least Manta for the focus fire damage).
-Mana Break is a fantastic attack steroid, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It doesn't fall off late game since it will scale with AS and manta, unless you're saying due to BKBs. Think about other hard carries like Spectre. Do people say he doesn't have a good attack steroid just because he only has Desolate, which also doesn't pierce BKB? Also consider that Mana Void damage also scales in a way due to enemy's increasing mana pool.
-If your team is steamrolling before you can farm up a BFury you can just get Vanguard and go push to end the game yes. Vanguard is nice to tank tower damage so you can push faster. Vlads is also nice for this situation. But this is a very rare situation.
Yeah so basically, I disagree with all your points LOL.
I asked for other non standard builds & items in the past on these forums and the answer was mostly the same --> battlefury & standard stuff afterwards. Looking back i'd say for good reason too, haha ±)
But if you really want to attempt mid AM in pubs i'd say (i pubscrub) go for it. I think drowlike hero' s will wreck antimage mid because they have a silence and slows, against pudgelike hero's it could maybe work well enough. I believe you could try to build around a manaburn timing. 64 manaburn is insanely high damage output where a diffusalblade lvl 2 only grants 35 manaburn per hit. I think i would try to itemize something like this : "magic immunity+attackspeed+ lifesteal+midgame lockdown". The manaburns from antimage is lifeleech-able with an aura, but maybe a mom could be better suited then a vlads because it grants more manaburns with 100 AS and 30% movementspeed.
You can switch the purchase orders, but i would try something like PMS+bottle+PT+mom+bkb into a basher. Lategame i'd say AC and/or butterfly because both grant more attackspeed and survivability and that is what i went for in the first place. Seems gimmicky but i cant think of any better mid antimage build atm then stated in this post, maybe that says it all
E: seems lifesteal on mom dont work at all so vlads is it.
am is much stronger in early 1on1 situations while maxing manabreak than some of the posters here give him credit for. there are certainly good and bad matchups, but some well timed aggression can have a huge impact because mana is so important for a lot of mids to keep control of the lane. like just a couple, let us say 2-3 hits with manabreak are equivalent to a spell cost of a high damage nuke. also don't forget that it's the str gain which is low not his base str.
anyways my question was not mainly about playing him mid, allthough he profits alot from levels, it's more about playing him more gank oriented. while other's farm their blink he can farm a bit more for pt + yasha and search for trouble. and again: that early in the game, you make people oom in just a few hits if you count in the fact that they dont allways have full mana. In alot of early/midgame situations the mana bar has a huge impact on alot of heroes. alot of poeple have tons of tryhard experience with the current playstile, which is like the only way ppl play him for years and years with not so much success.
Nothing beats AM's ability to be split pushing and cutting waves once you have manta and battlefury, gimping your item build to be able to do more hero damage early is really inefficient, even when you just compare the price of a possible hero kill to killing waves of creeps and towers. Changing your item build won't save you your own towers either.
On August 03 2014 10:54 clickrush wrote: am is much stronger in early 1on1 situations while maxing manabreak than some of the posters here give him credit for. there are certainly good and bad matchups, but some well timed aggression can have a huge impact because mana is so important for a lot of mids to keep control of the lane. like just a couple, let us say 2-3 hits with manabreak are equivalent to a spell cost of a high damage nuke. also don't forget that it's the str gain which is low not his base str.
anyways my question was not mainly about playing him mid, allthough he profits alot from levels, it's more about playing him more gank oriented. while other's farm their blink he can farm a bit more for pt + yasha and search for trouble. and again: that early in the game, you make people oom in just a few hits if you count in the fact that they dont allways have full mana. In alot of early/midgame situations the mana bar has a huge impact on alot of heroes. alot of poeple have tons of tryhard experience with the current playstile, which is like the only way ppl play him for years and years with not so much success.
Get PT and Yasha and search for trouble? If you blink in and try to man fight somebody it's the AM that will be in trouble. Blink is AM's escape mechanism. AM is paper thin early on, and I don't possibly see how you can drain somebody's mana fast enough where they wouldn't be able to react and actually use their spells regardless.
Now if you just wanted to goof off and do something different, then I could possibly see him being somewhat effective in an early pushing line-up with Vanguard. If you want AM to be engaging in any fights early on then you absolutely MUST build him tanky, otherwise he's just going to melt. But stop trying to make him a ganker. He's a bad ganker, period.
On August 03 2014 10:54 clickrush wrote: am is much stronger in early 1on1 situations while maxing manabreak than some of the posters here give him credit for. there are certainly good and bad matchups, but some well timed aggression can have a huge impact because mana is so important for a lot of mids to keep control of the lane. like just a couple, let us say 2-3 hits with manabreak are equivalent to a spell cost of a high damage nuke. also don't forget that it's the str gain which is low not his base str.
anyways my question was not mainly about playing him mid, allthough he profits alot from levels, it's more about playing him more gank oriented. while other's farm their blink he can farm a bit more for pt + yasha and search for trouble. and again: that early in the game, you make people oom in just a few hits if you count in the fact that they dont allways have full mana. In alot of early/midgame situations the mana bar has a huge impact on alot of heroes. alot of poeple have tons of tryhard experience with the current playstile, which is like the only way ppl play him for years and years with not so much success.
Just try antimage mid and adapt your skill/itembuild along the way, dont forget that most people will dislike any non standard build until a pro shows it can be done and sometimes rightfully so too. You can try to play him a bit like a shadowfiend who also goes mid alot in pubgames. Who knows could be new meta after the next patch, you'd be the first and we call you professor magina!
I.e. I never saw blink naturesprophet, support wraithking, sandking mid or support meepo as an acceptable build by the community until a pro showed us it could be done. I wonder how many reports your antimage mid is gonna get until a pro sees the same potential in antimage mid
I've seen some AM go for midgame builds when behind, it's decent, certainly better than bloodseeker forcestaff or carry jungler. The transition is rather awful though. I think it can be a good idea in 4/5 cores pubs line ups.
On August 03 2014 10:54 clickrush wrote: am is much stronger in early 1on1 situations while maxing manabreak than some of the posters here give him credit for. there are certainly good and bad matchups, but some well timed aggression can have a huge impact because mana is so important for a lot of mids to keep control of the lane. like just a couple, let us say 2-3 hits with manabreak are equivalent to a spell cost of a high damage nuke. also don't forget that it's the str gain which is low not his base str.
anyways my question was not mainly about playing him mid, allthough he profits alot from levels, it's more about playing him more gank oriented. while other's farm their blink he can farm a bit more for pt + yasha and search for trouble. and again: that early in the game, you make people oom in just a few hits if you count in the fact that they dont allways have full mana. In alot of early/midgame situations the mana bar has a huge impact on alot of heroes. alot of poeple have tons of tryhard experience with the current playstile, which is like the only way ppl play him for years and years with not so much success.
He simply doesn't offer anything that leads me to think he could be a good mid or a good ganker. You are more than welcome to try it out, because it couldn't hurt. There is a possibility that he could be played in different ways, but I am hard pressed to believe that they would be as good as the current style.
On August 03 2014 10:54 clickrush wrote: am is much stronger in early 1on1 situations while maxing manabreak than some of the posters here give him credit for. there are certainly good and bad matchups, but some well timed aggression can have a huge impact because mana is so important for a lot of mids to keep control of the lane. like just a couple, let us say 2-3 hits with manabreak are equivalent to a spell cost of a high damage nuke. also don't forget that it's the str gain which is low not his base str.
anyways my question was not mainly about playing him mid, allthough he profits alot from levels, it's more about playing him more gank oriented. while other's farm their blink he can farm a bit more for pt + yasha and search for trouble. and again: that early in the game, you make people oom in just a few hits if you count in the fact that they dont allways have full mana. In alot of early/midgame situations the mana bar has a huge impact on alot of heroes. alot of poeple have tons of tryhard experience with the current playstile, which is like the only way ppl play him for years and years with not so much success.
Just try antimage mid and adapt your skill/itembuild along the way, dont forget that most people will dislike any non standard build until a pro shows it can be done and sometimes rightfully so too. You can try to play him a bit like a shadowfiend who also goes mid alot in pubgames. Who knows could be new meta after the next patch, you'd be the first and we call you professor magina!
I.e. I never saw blink naturesprophet, support wraithking, sandking mid or support meepo as an acceptable build by the community until a pro showed us it could be done. I wonder how many reports your antimage mid is gonna get until a pro sees the same potential in antimage mid
Which there isn't. Without manta he doesn't do damage quickly enough so he can't gank. He can farm against most melee mids but if an enemy support as much as walks by he will be instantly zoned out. He can't farm the wave from a distance with an AoE nuke like SF can. And he can't farm stacks until he has BF and lifesteal (or an extra $5000 item).
On the other hand the support potential of a hero with an 8sec cd stun or the potential of buying a blink on a hero that splitpushes and relies heavily on positioning in teamfights because he's so squishy was always obvious.
And of course, none of his matters in low-average MMR games.
Antimage mid has been used in a high profile match: LGD vs Forlove in 2012 gleague
It definitely *can* work, but here it wasn't ideal: the NS pressured AM too much, along with support rotations. Though Tutu didn't die, he had no cs at all and FL was way behind for a lot of the game.
In short, put him vs a Mag, Clock, or some weak melee hero and AM will win the lane handily and have 70 cs+ at 10 mins. It's definitely better on Radiant because you can auto wave down -> medium camp -> auto wave -> hard camp, just like you would in the safelane. Dire camps are much further apart unfortunately. Once AM has treads/roh though he's not going to want to get any non dd/illusion rune as that will cut into farming time, so other teammates would need to cover that or just give them up. He also offers no threat to other lanes, but can get kills easily if supports rotate. Just imagine you're running a much less flexible Morph/Naga mid who needs to have a good matchup. Keep in mind though that just because he's mid doesn't mean hes a Storm or something. AM is not a ganker (lol), he's one of the 3 fastest farmers and a monster after 30 minutes. Go treads/pms/qb/roh -> battlefury and the usual build. The only time you ever, ever, want to consider something like Vanguard->Manta is if the enemy team is going allin on killing you pre-Manta, like running Bat/Storm/Qop for example. In that case slow farming is irrelevant because you auto beat their cores after 25 minutes, and just need to survive that long.
When I'm smurfing/showing friends stuff on lower level accounts I'll almost always go AM mid, as it's much more guaranteed freefarm even in hard matchups; the exception is if they have a weak solo offlaner like Clock (meaning a jungler and some weak safelane carry like a spectre). Just had a mid 3k game where I got 71/10m against a Brew, which is not the easiest matchup, and ended a pretty 1v9 game at 34 mins with 430 cs. If I had went safelane we probably would have lost, as they ran a dual offlane which basically means my team will leave me underleveled, probably feed, and I won't get much farm anyway.
Basically as AM you just want to figure out where is the fastest lane you can get a battlefury in, and subordinate your team to that decision. That means safelane normally, unless you're dodging offensive tri's/strong dual lanes if your supports suck or you have a useless jungle lifestealer etc. Even shaving off a minute on that battlefury timing will often turn defeat into victory.
requesting help for building against kunkka. should i skip manta after bfury and rush a bkb? or just get good and learn to dodge torrents with manta?
also against stuff like skywrath, should i max shield asap/by level 11? like 141 into 144 or 114 into 144? i would think shield scales better against skywrath since his silence -resistance? or just for example in general if enemy have lots of nukes, does that call for max shield by 11?
EPT
