On September 05 2013 03:39 Sn0_Man wrote: The whole point of SB is max bash so that your ulti does their entire HP pool at level 7.
This is sort of the mindset I'm trying to push people away from. Because no, I don't think this is the whole point of Spirit Breaker at all. I think the whole point of Spirit Breaker is to establish absurd presence for your team, giving you map control and space for harder carries to farm while also locking down squishier enemies and preventing them from establishing a presence of their own.
If I want to deal massive damage, I can think of a dozen heroes that would be better picks.
Bonus: If you keep charge at low level by the time you get to your opponent it can sometimes be almost off cooldown again.
As hard as I try, I can't understand why you think this would be a bonus. It's a bonus that the charge is so slow that you waste enough time for it to be off cooldown again?
If your goal is to lock down a single target you might as well just kill them with max bash (150 dmg from charge bash, 150 from ult, 150 from ult bash). I mean, the stun duration is very very comparable given that SB manages less than 1 attack per second around level 7 with treads.
If your goal is to disrupt their team by charging through them you might as well take advantage of the fact that greater bash scales on duration with levels and is the only thing that is hitting more than one person.
I mean, whats the point of blasting into your enemies then doing no damage? Leaving charge at level 1 sacrifices so very little when compared to the incredible damage potential that SB can output. I'm not advocating SB as a nuker, I'm advocating him as a ganker. You are advocating him as a... well I'm not quite sure. Disabler? Why would you turn down hundreds of points of damage in burst for .8 seconds of stun (admittedly a lot) and a slightly faster charge. Early game nobody is close to mobile enough to handle your charge regardless of 600 or 750 ms.
I mean, nobody maxes dragon tail first on DK just because "its an incredible disable". everybody knows when you hit 6 dragon tail is a top tier disable, but there is simply no need to level it over your other skills until later. Charge is much the same. People don't pick DK for his nuke potential, but its damn nice to have it and there is no reason to turn it down just because you could have .75s more stun or w/e.
It's not like you don't do any damage without max bash. You do a fuck ton of damage thanks to SB's ridiculous base stats. The point of Charge is to allow you to be everywhere on the map extremely quickly - a global ganker. You have allies to help you deal damage as well.
On September 05 2013 04:37 Sn0_Man wrote: If your goal is to lock down a single target you might as well just kill them with max bash (150 dmg from charge bash, 150 from ult, 150 from ult bash). I mean, the stun duration is very very comparable given that SB manages less than 1 attack per second around level 7 with treads.
If your goal is to disrupt their team by charging through them you might as well take advantage of the fact that greater bash scales on duration with levels and is the only thing that is hitting more than one person.
I mean, whats the point of blasting into your enemies then doing no damage? Leaving charge at level 1 sacrifices so very little when compared to the incredible damage potential that SB can output. I'm not advocating SB as a nuker, I'm advocating him as a ganker. You are advocating him as a... well I'm not quite sure. Disabler? Why would you turn down hundreds of points of damage in burst for .8 seconds of stun (admittedly a lot) and a slightly faster charge. Early game nobody is close to mobile enough to handle your charge regardless of 600 or 750 ms.
I mean, nobody maxes dragon tail first on DK just because "its an incredible disable". everybody knows when you hit 6 dragon tail is a top tier disable, but there is simply no need to level it over your other skills until later. Charge is much the same. People don't pick DK for his nuke potential, but its damn nice to have it and there is no reason to turn it down just because you could have .75s more stun or w/e.
Hundreds of points of damage? You must be out of your mind. It's almost like you think I'm maxing bash last. By level 10 you're going to have max bash anyway, but between levels 7-10 you don't need the damage, which is going to be fairly negligible anyway, you need the guaranteed kill. By the time you get your armlet you should have max bash and max charge, giving you the opportunity to be the 100-0 you seem to think he is. The point of maxing charge first is to guarantee kills in the early game pre-armlet, as opposed to relying on the risk of maxing bash.
This is actually part of why I think the guide needs to distinguish between off-lane and safe lane SB.
Safe lane SB can max Bash first if you want because you will gain levels comparatively quickly, and with items you will quickly become a solo-killing threat. There's actually some merit to an SB that can kill things alone, which is where Bash max shines with safe lane levels and free-farm.
Off-lane SB simply doesn't gain items or levels fast enough to be a solo-kill threat anyway, so there's basically no point at which you can say that he would chunk 3/4 of someone's HP, even if you did max Bash. So in this case, you'd rather max Charge, given how comparatively late you get your level 6 as an off-laner and how much fewer items you get.
EDIT:
Here's a video of 820 playing SB in a high level Chinese pub (820+QQQ+Dai+Lanm+Crystal pubstack vs. PCT-led pubstack).
While 750 ms is undeniably a lot faster than 600, I don't find myself having issues getting places with SB. The issues primarily occur when the enemy has more backup than I do.
Conveniently, low levels of charge are MORE conducive to my allies arriving at fights than my enemies (since my allies are informed and have vision for much longer). And high levels in bash help mitigate the enemies because they essentially die easier. A lot easier.
I mean, TP'ing places is generally still faster than charge at any level if you are having problems being "global" enough, especially early game when its quite unlikely you are lacking more than a tower or two. The real benefits from higher levels of charge become apparent well after you hit level 11. The ability to punish split pushers and to be (more) mobile without relying on TP's isn't so crucial at level 6-7.
E:
On September 05 2013 04:43 dmcRedgrave wrote: The point of maxing charge first is to guarantee kills in the early game pre-armlet, as opposed to relying on the risk of maxing bash.
You are thinking this backwards. Armlet helps a charge-max build because its a reliable right-click-damage output item that enjoys reliable stun time. Without finishing armlet charge max is painfully low damage since you get LESS THAN 1 RIGHT CLICK EXTRA from your extended stun time while you get ~120 damage on every target from the additional levels of bash. Double that damage when you include ultimate.
TL;DR: Armlet appreciates a stunned target since it helps you whack that guy. Once you have armlet then a charge-max becomes more important (and the timing probably coincides with a level 10 charge max). pre-armlet, bash is far more damage RELIABLY.
PS: with ultimate the stun durations are within .2 seconds of each other, since ulti stun scales off of bash as well.
I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
On September 05 2013 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote: Charge is so much better when you can communicate well and plan with your allies about where you're gonna strike next.
Equally true for all levels of the skill yes
On September 05 2013 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote: Low levels of charge give the enemy longer to react to you should they see you with wards. This is especially relevant the higher skilled you are.
If the opponent sees you with wards you are doing something wrong. Smoke or charge via a different path. This is especially relevant the higher skilled you are.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
The old SB gained damage based on his MS as part of his aura skill (rather than it being part of his bash) so it made a lot of sense to level the aura somewhat. Circumstantial, but it did used to be good before the partial remake.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
You got 16% of your MS as damage on every hit. At level 7 with just Treads, you were getting 60+ damage per hit off of it, which is way more damage than you get on Bash procs at the same level now, even with 2 guaranteed bashes.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
You got 16% of your MS as damage on every hit. At level 7 with just Treads, you were getting 60+ damage per hit off of it, which is way more damage than you get on Bash procs at the same level now, even with 2 guaranteed bashes.
Damn you and your math.
Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
You got 16% of your MS as damage on every hit. At level 7 with just Treads, you were getting 60+ damage per hit off of it, which is way more damage than you get on Bash procs at the same level now, even with 2 guaranteed bashes.
Damn you and your math.
Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
The discussion was about Charge vs Bash unless I missed something. Leveling aura before Bash is far more situational. I don't think it's a good idea most of the time. Maybe if you go full suppor SB, but that hardly happens in pubs. Bash is a big portion of your damage and you have 2 guaranteed procs.
On September 05 2013 05:41 Plansix wrote: Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
A) Yango said aura WAS your best skill pre-remake. He isn't advocating an early max of it now. B) How is upping bash better when you didn't get them for free? previously, upping bash was pretty questionable since it was so luck based, and was only a guarantee on your ultimate. The fact that it is now guaranteed to hit a target twice (once with charge, once with ult) is what makes it so absurdly attractive to max asap now. Free damage, no uncertainty whatsoever.
In general, aura ranks beyond the first are very situational based on your team. There are a lot of heroes that do use free MS very well and need it to engage fights smoothly, but there are also a lot of heroes that have no use for it. A second or 3rd Aura rank CAN be good depending on your team, but it's somewhat rare.
On September 05 2013 05:41 Plansix wrote: Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
A) Yango said aura WAS your best skill pre-remake. He isn't advocating an early max of it now. B) How is upping bash better when you didn't get them for free? previously, upping bash was pretty questionable since it was so luck based, and was only a guarantee on your ultimate. The fact that it is now guaranteed to hit a target twice (once with charge, once with ult) is what makes it so absurdly attractive to max asap now. Free damage, no uncertainty whatsoever.
Ah, I was wrong then, it must have been Firebolt's post, or I misread. In general, I just like going faster and having higher movement. I prefer to follow up and have the ability to do so, or get out if the things turn out to be not what I expected. The games you folks play might be tighter and you just need that extra damage to finish them off. But from my limited SB experience, upping the aura to about level 3 first always felt better than going for level 3 bash.
On September 05 2013 03:39 Sn0_Man wrote: The whole point of SB is max bash so that your ulti does their entire HP pool at level 7.
This is sort of the mindset I'm trying to push people away from. Because no, I don't think this is the whole point of Spirit Breaker at all. I think the whole point of Spirit Breaker is to establish absurd presence for your team, giving you map control and space for harder carries to farm while also locking down squishier enemies and preventing them from establishing a presence of their own.
If I want to deal massive damage, I can think of a dozen heroes that would be better picks.
Bonus: If you keep charge at low level by the time you get to your opponent it can sometimes be almost off cooldown again.
As hard as I try, I can't understand why you think this would be a bonus. It's a bonus that the charge is so slow that you waste enough time for it to be off cooldown again?
How is doing massive burst not establishing an "absurd presence?" I definitely think charge first or haste first was the best build before the patch, but with the guaranteed first hit bash after charge, it makes it so that there's about a 0.6 second difference between in stun time between bash first and charge first, with the caveat being an extra 120-130 dmg. The point of a spirit breaker charge is to GET KILLS which means you should be maximizing efficiency. Obviously there are situations where the extra stun is preferable (against invis heroes and blink heroes), but bash first should still be your go to build.
Moreover, MoM is a stunningly effective build in the right situation. A free farm sb with treads MoM by 10ish mins is an absolutely devastating ganking force, especially if the other team doesn't have enough lockdown to deal with it.
Conclusion, build SB as you want, he's the pub king now, making every AP game a cow level without requiring wirt's leg. I almost never play the heroe, the only 2 times I played him since remake I just went yolo charge all around as a wardbitch and it worked wonder. I almost feel like farming reduced his early impact on the game which is insane because you're not forced to always be on the minimap and therefore it's not as obvious that you come. Same thing when I face SB, I prefer facing one farming than one roaming with brown boots, urn and wards.
On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote: Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS.
It adds 8 damage at max bash if i'm not mistaken, not that exciting.
???
Spirit Breaker has 345 base MS with Treads, so unless you're MS capped, you're gaining 69 MS from Lothar's, which in turn means you're gettin +28 damage on max rank Bash.
My bad, i thought lothar's added 20 mouvements speed, not 20%, no idea why i thought that. I should try shadowblade one of these days, that's a lot of burst.
Thanks for the comprehensive guide on space cow! However your playstyle / view on the hero is largly different than mine. - I think maxing Bash first is the strongest option. Longer stun and more damage. Faster charge doesnt matter that much (the longer stun is good though). - MoM is good, its ias and movement speed, exactly what you want. It allows one to kill enemies in the charge + ulti duration, so the drawback doesnt matter. This works only if they dont walk grouped up, which is the case in most pubs. Its also a decent farming tool. - I dont think his laning is weak. He has very strong stats and can make kills happen with a good laning partner, just by charging + followup.
EPT
