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On September 04 2013 18:36 Rainling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 18:15 gashad wrote:
Great guide!!!
however the stun length calculations, comparing charge with bash seem to be off.
Firstly charge always triggers a greater bash-so a level 1 charge with a level 4 bash would give you 1.6 stun on the charge.
Moreover nether strike also guarantees a bash so:
lvl 4 charge + netherstrike= 2.4+1=3.4 seconds stun(lvl 1 bash)
lvl 1 charge + netherstrike=1.6+1.6=3.2 second stun(lvl 4 bash)
Adding to that each bash you get gives you 0.6 second extra stun time from level 4 bash compared to level 1. So its quite probable that lvl 4 bash and level 1 charge will give you more stun then lvl 4 charge lvl 1 bash.
So the main tradeoff is the higher speed of charge vs the higher damage from more levels of bash. I generally prefer bash for the extra damage. Yeah, I also think maxing charge first is worse once you reach level 6, also if you can charge through multiple people on the way to the target leveling bash can make a big difference in engagements.
All these maths hurt my eyes. Let's just saying if you could own with maxing bash first then chances is higher that you could have owned even harder by maxing charge first.
edit:
unless your rng god is by your side in a game lol
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MoM adds more bashes and increases the damage of his bashes. It also is far more difficult to escape from you with the movespeed buff of MoM and you aren't going to die due to the extra dmg in a 1v1 situation anyway. I don't think it's nearly as bad of an item as you say. I'd also say that as a single DPS item it gives you a higher chance of killing your opponent than Armlet does, which does not give you any movespeed and the aspd it gives is very low. Spirit Breaker synergizes with everything MoM gives extremely well.
Furthermore, Greater Bash also procs immediately when your charge finishes and hence the stun duration calculations you made are immediately made almost obsolete. Furthermode, the charge gives a high level Greater Bash a great damage boost as well and I don't understand why you act like damage does not matter. SpiritBreaker is not a support ganker, he's a solo ganker.
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The speed of the Charge is very important. its probably the main reason you max it first.
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I was also maxing charge first, but since the buff that made sb proc a greater bash on his charged target, i usually max bash first for increased burst.
Also as burningsera said, MoM is still a good stiuational item, if the ennemy team is lacking disable and you can get it early enough it will be easier to get solo kills.
Also MoM allows you to farm jungle, which is interesting because you want to stay out of vision as much as possible. If you don't farm at all it's hard to keep the snowball going, i usually get some cs in jungle when my ult is on cd and look for opportunities.
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i often find that Spirit Breaker's solution to a bad laning phase is solved by taking the solo offlane then abandoning the offlane. It's why Icefrog blessed us with items like boots and oov.
As others have pointed out, Shadowblade really needs mentioning. Smoke is also really good too.
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Your lack of faith in bash is disturbing !!!
Whenever you charge someone you have to believe in the bash
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Speaking of stats, did you know that the moment a Spirit Breaker buys treads, he already has over a 60% chance to win the game?
That's why, kids, if you want to beat this imbalanced hero, you must gank him before he can build treads. For this I suggest either non-stop 5 man ganks on his lane for the first 10-15 minutes of the game, or a 5-man all mid strat that seeks to end the game as fast as possible.
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Updated with suggestions from the thread.
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Personally I think that forcestaff is the most underrated item on spirit breaker. Especially if playing offlane or support roles.
Recommended build
tango
salve
clarity
(wards, currier, smoke etc.)
Depending on the lane you may or may not need a stout shield. If you are trying to farm get it. If you are just getting exp in long lane or pulling don't.
The goal is to pick up, plain boots, a magic stick, AND A TP SCROLL. Then gank when appropriate, find a little farm and esperience where you can and slowly pick up the components for a forcestaff. ALWAYS HAVE A TP. This allows you to tp to towers before charging for more effective ganks, being able to counter gank quickly, and TO GET AWAY after diving towers.
With just plain boots, a forcestaff, a magic stick, and a tp scroll. You can chase heroes even after using your full combo. You can get out of hairy situations (not only are you tanky, have atleast 2 sure stuns, but now you also have a way to reposition/escape in early scirmishes/fights).
After forcestaff and plain boots you can do anything. Depending on the level of farm you find.
Phase/bkb into AC etc
Arcane + mech/pipe
Even something as fun as dagon eblade
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United States47024 Posts
You need to be more distinguishing about how the hero's playstyle changes between an off-lane Bara and a safe-lane Bara. If you are safe lane, then free-farm until level 6 or 7 is fine. If you are off-lane in most cases you will want to get level 3 + Boots and then GTFO. This is because while your high base stats carry you in the lane when you are level 1-3, once support nukes start coming online, it becomes progressively riskier, meaning that you have to be ready to ditch the lane to gank, force the supports to respond to your movement, and TP back to the tower once the lane pushes to it to get farm.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On September 05 2013 00:02 HungrySC2 wrote:
Personally I think that forcestaff is the most underrated item on spirit breaker. Especially if playing offlane or support roles.
Recommended build
tango
salve
clarity
(wards, currier, smoke etc.)
Depending on the lane you may or may not need a stout shield. If you are trying to farm get it. If you are just getting exp in long lane or pulling don't.
The goal is to pick up, plain boots, a magic stick, AND A TP SCROLL. Then gank when appropriate, find a little farm and esperience where you can and slowly pick up the components for a forcestaff. ALWAYS HAVE A TP. This allows you to tp to towers before charging for more effective ganks, being able to counter gank quickly, and TO GET AWAY after diving towers.
With just plain boots, a forcestaff, a magic stick, and a tp scroll. You can chase heroes even after using your full combo. You can get out of hairy situations (not only are you tanky, have atleast 2 sure stuns, but now you also have a way to reposition/escape in early scirmishes/fights).
After forcestaff and plain boots you can do anything. Depending on the level of farm you find.
Phase/bkb into AC etc
Arcane + mech/pipe
Even something as fun as dagon eblade
This build is so next level to me that I'm like 'wat'.
On a serious note, force staff is not at all a good item on SB, especially a farming one. SB is a hero that dominates the midgame and you need to focus on items which build on that. Force staff gives you mana, something he doesn't need, and a bit of regeneration, which is pretty meh. The active is not that useful when chasing heroes is easy for you already.
Focus on items which build on your strengths. Leave force staff and arcanes for the supports.
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Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
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"Personally I think that forcestaff is the most underrated item on spirit breaker. Especially if playing offlane or support roles."
I can't think of another support hero in the game that can lock down an enemy hero for as long as SB. Forcestaff allows you to continue to do that or switch targets effectively. Even after using your full combo.
Spirit breaker is the most durable hero in the game at early levels AND he can play a support role or non farming role effectively.
SB in a support or non farming role is NOT to right click people for damage, but to use his charge to set up ganks, and to stay alive and find enough experience to reach level 6 reasonably quickly.
While extremely strong in early levels as a 4-5 role. He tapers off dramatically and becomes a 1 and done feeding machine. UNLESS you can work towards an item that makes him hard to kill AND allows him to reposition himself in fights and retain his usefullness throughout the fight. Unlike bounty hunters track, SB's passive isn't useful unless he stays alive.
As the game goes on suddenly your 4-5 position spirit breaker is staying alive longer, and is finding more farm than the opponents 4-5 heroes, and you can start working towards other useful supporting items, arcanes, mech, drums, vlads, pipe. Bkb, scythe of vyce, AC
It's fucking stupid that everyone thinks SB is a ganking/carry. He doesn't win man fights and doesn't hold up when he's focus fired. But he can be extremely annoying if he is not high enough priority to be focused down. If you aren't putting farm on a hero, but that hero is still having a large impact in fights, that's much more than can be said of many other strong early game supports.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote:
Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS.
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On September 05 2013 02:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote:
Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS.
It adds 8 damage at max bash if i'm not mistaken, not that exciting.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 05 2013 03:27 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 02:22 TheYango wrote:On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote:
Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS. It adds 8 damage at max bash if i'm not mistaken, not that exciting.
???
Spirit Breaker has 345 base MS with Treads, so unless you're MS capped, you're gaining 69 MS from Lothar's, which in turn means you're gettin +28 damage on max rank Bash.
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Whats with these people who don't max bash?
The whole point of SB is max bash so that your ulti does their entire HP pool at level 7.
Any hero with a point-and-click stun can prevent charge regardless of level (Rubick, SD, etc) and any hero without is getting stunned regardless of charge level. Max bash is a billion times more damage on both charge and on ult.
Bonus: If you keep charge at low level by the time you get to your opponent it can sometimes be almost off cooldown again.
As in, SB bash isn't for right clicks, its for charge and ult. Hitting it on right clicks is a bonus but barely a relevant one compared to it's primary use.
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United States47024 Posts
Sn0_Man have you ever even played bash max SB?
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Okay their entire HP pool is a bit of an exaggeration, but yes.
Prolly around 10 times. Its remarkably (at low levels) hard to kill enemies inside a 2 second stun with just right clicks. Its remarkably easy to kill them when they literally die to charge + ult.
Have you yango?
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This is the best guide I've yet read on TL. It had all the good info (fuck yeah no mom sb!) and was enjoyable to read.
I would also like to endorse shadowblade as a core, it really enhances your dps, maneuverability and survivability (dat ms).
I also think that the recommended skill build, while not bad, is a bit outdated. Back when nobody played sb ever ever ever, you maxed charge first with no further thought and life was good. However as sb has become relatively popular in dota 2 pubs (its a fucking space cow that charges things globally) people have actually begun to find some nuances of the hero which make it more effective in the hands of a skilled user (or bash-hacking piece of shit).
Skill build: 1 charge, 2 bash, 3 emp haste (one of the many builds I refer to as the 1/1/1), 4 bash, 5 bash, 6 ult, 7 bash, 8 charge, ...
The reasoning for this is as follows:
1) Charge is op. It is so op, that you can use it in creative and useful ways other than the braindead way everybody uses it (DURR KILL CM DURR). For example: Consider a standardish teamfight around 8-14 minutes that might take place in the midlane at either side's T1 there. Assuming that you are fast enough to use charge when a suitable target is in vision, you could position yourself appropriately, charge a target way in the back, and greater bash 2+ targets on your way to reaching that guy you charged, only to turn around during all of this stun and ult the fuck out of the guy you really wanted to focus. In this way, you just used charge sort of like telekinesis from rubick if he throws the target into a bunch of guys.
To illustrate with my sick nasty MLG420NOSCOPE paint skillz.
You can use this technique in many, many situations including...
2) ESCAPE! The extra .6 seconds really does matter when theres some piece of shit that might be able to chase you and take you out of charge when you just barely escape that 4man gank #themanskeepingmedown by charging another location on the map, bashing everybody around you (namely those fucks trying to kill you)
finally theres
3) Ability to solokill and overall damage-- you probably need to bash in order to kill anything. The extra 30% ms dps bonus from when you bash is highly significant in the early game. In this respect, sb is a bit like void in that you need to hax a bit in order to be very successful in any given game. The extra stun duration from charge is nice, but ultimately its unlikely that you find a kill without bashing even with the extra stun time (which in a treads/pretreads-inventory sb will only get you 1-3 attacks), and then if you do bash with a maxed charge at 7, it does very little damage compared to a level 4 bash at the same time (which does a shitton).
ASIDE: One of the reasons people get Mom on void is so that you can have 9999 attack speed in order to get the maximum number of bash procs in a given circumstance. What makes this viable is void has a huge fucking blue bubble that stops time in a really big aoe, thus decreasing the likelyhood that hes getting hit by many sources--meaning that the extra damage you take from mom is avoided by minimizing the number of people that can actually do anything to you for X seconds. While maxing your ais (bash potential) on sb is good (void damage bonus on bash similar to sb) the difference between void and sb is that everybody is gonna be fucking hitting you when you chargyolo into 5 guys--you dont have a big fucking blue bubble, so you are going to be very useless in the fight very quickly.
EDIT: I forgot that his ulti also applies a greater bash, which at level 1 isnt very scary (as opposed to 4). This adds to my third "bullet" of maxing bashSB first yields higher dps, and ability to solokill  have a nice day
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EPT
